How do we fix this?

[MajesticSausage]

7 hours ago, DugeHick said:

Quoting myself here for a bit:

" The difference between a good and a great product, is the difference between having a hard time selling it versus having it pretty much sell itself.
If the product is great, then the persistent word-of-mouth will be your most powerful ad campaign that you will néver have to pay for.

Those are X^Y walking billboards all over the f place, that don't have to be managed ánd who don't ask for money all the time.
All of them can work fór you, or against you. "

Right now, we might even have things working AGAINST us.....

That is just not true, sorry. It doesn't matter how good your game might be, you can't expect word of mouth to just happen and then rely on it to propel you to success. Occasionally word of mouth success stories do happen, but they are rare, and more often than not obfuscate the amount of marketing and work that went into constructing that "organic" word of mouth in the first place.

The most confusing thing about your self quote though, is that it seems to be advocating and approach of trying to please everyone. That doesn't work. Anyone who has tried and kind of creative endeavour will tell you that if you try and please everyone, you end up with a mediocre mess. The best approach is to identify your audience and build a great experience for them.

The problem with the heels dug in OldRen types (and I hasten to point out I'm not saying all OldRen players are like that, I am directly referring to the ones who are intractable) is their aims are diametrically opposed to the wants of the RenX core player base, and I would argue, any new players (It's fascinating to me how many people actually play RenX who never played OldRen) You can't appease one without upsetting the other.

Adding a mutator as a nice nod to nostalgia is awesome, but you can't take a backwards facing view when thinking about the future, and you can't split your player base to appease a small number of people who will likely never come round anyway.

 

Quote

So many outrage and disappointments, heck DDoS attacks even.

That's a huge signal to start turning the wheel.

That negativity and disappointment needs to be called out and catered to. WITH, a drop of honey.

Thing is, with any product ya have to follow the market.
It's about what the audience wants. We are ought to listen to it and steer accordingly.

The way I see it, it will certainly help to offer a new home to those diehard Renegaders. Start getting them IN HERE already.
They're our allies and fellow C&C-lovers, not our 'toxic' enemies!

And once they feel at home within our community, they're waaay more likely to switch to the X game mode aswell.
And tell their gamer friends. We could use their company right now, while we are still quite an endangered species.

So afaic, we're not just building some tiny little OGRen knockoff mutator.
Nah. We have to build a serious Classic/Old-School Game Mode. And ask for forgiveness."

 

Jesus, no, just, no. I've talked about how their wants are diametrically opposed to begin with, and how splitting the player base is a bad idea for games with millions of players let alone one with 80.

But rewarding aggressive, toxic, entitled behaviour and malicious attacks with acquiescence, and an apology? That would set an awful example and is frankly, barmy.

Edited April 10, 2019 by MajesticSausage
Formatting

[Suspiria]

I appreciate your viewpoint.

On 4/10/2019 at 12:04 PM, MajesticSausage said:

The most confusing thing about your self quote though, is that it seems to be advocating and approach of trying to please everyone. You can't appease one without upsetting the other.

This is about the Renegade-niche. That's not everyone.

Quote

Adding a mutator as a nice nod to nostalgia is awesome, but you can't take a backwards facing view when thinking about the future, and you can't split your player base to appease a small number of people who will likely never come round anyway.

Ofcourse we're not gonna take a backwards facing view when thinking about the future.
This is indeed about a nod towards nostalgia.

Quote

Jesus, no, just, no. I've talked about how their wants are diametrically opposed to begin with, and how splitting the player base is a bad idea for games with millions of players let alone one with 80.

Blizzard is doing it with World of Warcraft.

Quote

But rewarding aggressive, toxic, entitled behaviour and malicious attacks with acquiescence, and an apology? That would set an awful example and is frankly, barmy.

In essence, I agree with this.
Yet this is coming from the judgemental perspective that ALL those people will always be toxic and are just plain bad.
Those same 'toxic' people are among us too, right now.

It wouldn't be about rewarding those attacks. Heck, I don't even know if those DDoS attacks came from that direction.
It would rather be about creating an environment in which such PITA behaviour - which is right around the corner - is far outshined by a happy community.

A Classic game mode wouldn't be about separating into two camps.
It's about bringing together the Renegade niche instead of fighting and judging each other all the time.

Edited April 25, 2019 by DugeHick

[Atomsk]

I'm an oldie and I used to play Renegade X on my then newfangled broadband with my friend. I still had a Nokia 3310 and I had to burn precious, hard-earned prepaid minutes to call up my friend to scour one of many laggy Renegade servers to join at the same time. We'd go back and forth until we got in the same team. Then we'd just dick around and hopefully found each other, because we didn't have headsets. 

Besides feeling ancient, I'm super grateful that this game came into existence and I have entirely dropped out of Apex to get on Ren-X whenever I have some free time. I actually absolutely love the game and the direction Totem Arts took it. 

Considering all the devs have done to keep this game alive and progressing, is incredible and more you can say of a whole lot of steam games in my library. 

[Suspiria]

On 4/10/2019 at 9:49 PM, Atomsk said:

I'm an oldie and I used to play Renegade X on my then newfangled broadband with my friend. I still had a Nokia 3310 and I had to burn precious, hard-earned prepaid minutes to call up my friend to scour one of many laggy Renegade servers to join at the same time. We'd go back and forth until we got in the same team. Then we'd just dick around and hopefully found each other, because we didn't have headsets. 

Besides feeling ancient, I'm super grateful that this game came into existence and I have entirely dropped out of Apex to get on Ren-X whenever I have some free time. I actually absolutely love the game and the direction Totem Arts took it. 

Considering all the devs have done to keep this game alive and progressing, is incredible and more you can say of a whole lot of steam games in my library. 

Hear, hear!

[Madkill40]

There was once an nearly 3-day run on CNC-Under in the earlier days. A long stalemate.

[Goku]

Haha those were the days. Going to bed and waking up and the same match of field or under still going on.

[Xtractor]

9 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

There was once an nearly 3-day run on CNC-Under in the earlier days. A long stalemate.

 

7 hours ago, Goku said:

Haha those were the days. Going to bed and waking up and the same match of field or under still going on.

Epic! never knew another game done that ..maybe staling but Happy I lived/experienced  that era

[roweboat]

I feel like the surrender and veteran system have sort of ended nearly all of those 12-48hr matches.

[Suspiria]

I would still like to respond to MajesticSausage's input.
For the truth's sake.

On 4/10/2019 at 12:04 PM, MajesticSausage said:

That is just not true, sorry. It doesn't matter how good your game might be,

Your next-to total negation of the seriousness of this well-known phenomenon does not make it illusory in and of itself.
And it's not just the successes that should be counted.

On 4/10/2019 at 12:04 PM, MajesticSausage said:

you can't expect word of mouth to just happen and then rely on it to propel you to success.

This is a strawman argument.

A significant part of that post was also about just how critically important it is to gain traction, receive feedback, and to have an online presence established at the point of release. Another of its fruits being the attraction of new developers and contributors.

I should've linked to it.

On 4/10/2019 at 12:04 PM, MajesticSausage said:

you can't take a backwards facing view when thinking about the future

Thank you for reminding me of this.

Perhaps it's not a great idea to put such kind of a spotlight on the OGRen mode right now.
There's something in my mind that actually tends to agree with that.

On 4/10/2019 at 12:04 PM, MajesticSausage said:

The most confusing thing about your self quote though, is that it seems to be advocating and approach of trying to please everyone.

I'm sure it seems that way to you.

If the OldRen-RenX playerbase ratio were like 15-85, I would never, ever have posed the idea to go take a closer look at OldRen.
It's just that it's currently more like like 40-60. Thàt caught my curiosity.

On 4/10/2019 at 12:04 PM, MajesticSausage said:

people who will likely never come round anyway.

I want to rule out a correspondence bias here.

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DugeHick said: "It's about what the audience wants. We are ought to listen to it and steer accordingly."

I can only imagine how this sentence can be misinterpreted.

By this, and by "turning the wheel", I mean: Start Listening to what OldRenners have to say. Not doing AS they say.
Rather I'd like to use some of that input as an instrument towards excellence.

As I feel that OldRen still has the power to inspire X in certain area's.

Such as:
- Smooth camera movement while getting in and out of vehicles.
- Superweapon weather effects.

Stuff like that.

[Suspiria]

I think it's really good that this stuff is debated.
Even if we disagree and-or misunderstand each other sometimes.

For me, this helps to figure out for myself, what I want to work on.

I'll be on the lookout for more ways of promoting this project.
While working on some new features for X.

Perhaps the OGRen gamemode can receive a bit more attention post-release.

I want to thank you for your extensive input here, @MajesticSausage. Good stuff.

Have a great day and evening everyone.  

Edited April 30, 2019 by DugeHick
tagged MajesticSausage

[NodSaibot]

I think it really boils down to the fact that we aren't putting any resources towards advertising, as we don't think the game is in a good enough state yet (that's why it's still beta) and we are still working on things. The game will never likely have a "breakthrough" without advertising. It's not fun or desirable to have specific times where servers are active, but that's just the state of the game right now.

[MajesticSausage]

18 hours ago, DugeHick said:

I would still like to respond to MajesticSausage's input.
For the truth's sake.

Your next-to total negation of the seriousness of this well-known phenomenon does not make it illusory in and of itself.
And it's not just the successes that should be counted

 

I mean, you just proclaiming it a well known phenomenon doesn't make it so. My point is that for every gigantic overnight success one comes across, there is a large untold story of very conscious direct work. Games that are incredibly successful are also good games does not mean that all good games are successful. You have to put a lot of work into community development, business development and advertisement. Word of mouth is important and can be a huge boon but relying on it to propel you to success is problematic in my experience.

It is pretty rich of you to make such a sweeping truism when you then go on to accuse me of making strawman arguments

18 hours ago, DugeHick said:

This is a strawman argument.

You can't just label something a strawman without actually addressing why the argument is fallacious and then stride off as though you job is done. This in itself is what is called an fallacy fallacy.

Besides I don't think I'm misrepresenting your point. I'm saying that the expectation that word of mouth alone can sustain itself seems erroneous. My assertion is that word of mouth general requires a lot of conscious effort to build and sustain.

I can totally agree with the rest of the post. I apologise for coming on strong. Self importance is never a good look.

Itis always worth listening to everyone's point of view and giving it it's due. Old ren players who prefer old ren styles are more than entitled to their point of view and valuable insights can be learned from them, I never meant to suggest otherwise. It's just that RenX has deliberately strayed from the Ren mould and imo it is all for the better. Discourse and debate is great but at some point the people steering the ship have the right to say "no" and which point one has to choose if they get on board or disembark.

[Suspiria]

7 hours ago, MajesticSausage said:

You have to put a lot of work into community development, business development and advertisement.

If you'd first read the whole post and thén start typing, this conversation would be different.

As we already agreed on this: "A significant part of that post was also about just how critically important it is to gain traction, receive feedback, and to have an online presence established at the point of release. Another of its fruits being the attraction of new developers and contributors."

7 hours ago, MajesticSausage said:

Word of mouth is important and can be a huge boon but relying on it to propel you to success is problematic in my experience.

Here goes the strawman again.

Again, see: "A significant part of that post was also about just how critically important it is to gain traction, receive feedback, and to have an online presence established at the point of release. Another of its fruits being the attraction of new developers and contributors."

8 hours ago, MajesticSausage said:

You can't just label something a strawman without actually addressing why the argument is fallacious and then stride off as though you job is done. This in itself is what is called an fallacy fallacy.

I feel that you're coming from a place of reactivity with this.
As I did fully address the strawman, and on top of that I actually assumed responsibility for it myself.

8 hours ago, MajesticSausage said:

I apologise for coming on strong.

I respect that.

I'm glad we can agree that it's worth listening to everyone's point of view and giving it its due.

Goodnight.

[Suspiria]

8 hours ago, MajesticSausage said:

Discourse and debate is great but at some point the people steering the ship have the right to say "no" and which point one has to choose if they get on board or disembark.

You tell me this, while I've been working round the clock on X.
*sob*

[RypeL]

Can we stop this back and forth, fueled by mild personal attacks ? I think you guys have better things to do then spending your time on this weird quoting battle, so let me help you by locking this topic. I think everyone made their point. If someone still wants to talk about something specific from this they can open another topic, but lets lock this derailed topic.