Complex

[Luhrian]

Hey guys,

I was watching the records from the last PUG on Complex. You can see there, that it is very easy to spawn kill the tanks wich are rolling out. Nod had no chance to win against the GDI, because they are loosing one Tank after the other.

@TK0104's records from the PUG match on Complex:

 

I think we have to do something against that to balance the map, because Nod can't spawn kill the spwaned GDI tanks, because

1. the GDI Tanks have better amor and health
2. the tanks they are rolling out are better protected from enemy fire.

If we want to fix that, we have 2 possibilities:

1.  Put some rocks in front of the airstrip dropoff. If we choose this possibilitie, we can maybe prevent the spawn killing from the middle and from the Silo side, but not from the Barracks side. It would be still easy for GDI to spwan kill the tanks, just a little bit more difficult
2. Place the airstrip between the Refinery and the Hand of Nod. Put the airstrip tower in front of the airstrip to prevnt spawn killing from the Silo side. Put a rock next to the airstrip tower to prevent spawn killing from the middle and the Hand of Nod will protect the airstrip dropoff from enemy fire from the Barracks side

For the second suggestion I've already made a pre-version. So if the developers are interessted in this version, wirte me and I'll upload this version.

 

Screens for the second suggestion:

 

 

 

 

Btw, maybe you can fix that b2b spot here:

Edited February 18, 2017 by Luhrian

[SvN91]

I like the second suggestion.

[Sn4ke]

8 hours ago, Luhrian said:

If we want to fix that

*lol*

do we need to fix that? doubt that. Yeah, Nod is vulnerable to that, but can easily put GDI under pressure by buying full vehicle limit of arties (+healers) at start, then switch to either flamers / stankz or just keep arties up +some LTs.

It's easy for Nod to dominate that map, and it's hard for GDI to get enough enough meds out to "killspawn" incoming Nod vehicles.

And the only reason that GDI was farming spawning vehicles at this PUG was due to maxed out VEHICLES (meds mostly).

So what exactly is the problem with that?

about b2b - both fractions can b2b. as it's against the rules on almost every server... the original mapper is inactive... and I doubt anyone will change that. Cuz if you want to prevent both fractions from b2b you have to change the whole middle part of the map (unless you just add invisible blockers, which suck). and that needs relighting etc blabla. Not worth it.

Regards,

Sn4ke

[Luhrian]

11 hours ago, DarkSn4ke said:

Nod is vulnerable to that, but can easily put GDI under pressure by buying full vehicle limit of arties (+healers) at start, then switch to either flamers / stankz or just keep arties up +some LTs.

It doesn't matter how easy it is for Nod in the first minutes to  put GDI under pressure. We are talking, what happen if Nod loosing the Field and GDI tanks staying in front of the Nod base.

The big differnce between GDI and Nod on this map is, that the GDI can break out, because they can easily max ut meds. Nod can't max out Arties or Lights, because the tanks get always spawn killed.

On Thommys records you can see that Nod lost through that spawn killing:

• 1 Flamer = 800$
• 2 Artys = 900$
• 1 Light Tank = 600$
• 1 Stealth Tank = 900$

So they just lost 3200$ through that.

And you can't see all of that, because Thommy drove back to barracks because of the stank rush.

Redarmy was also saying at 11:02 "How they have still money for tanks, I'm destroying so many if they spawn them."

So he already killed more tanks wich were rolling out. Through that, Nod had no chance to push the GDI tanks back.

So if Nod is under pressure, the GDI have a clear advantage and you don't have fun, if every Tank you are rolling out get killed by meds in front of your base. And why you should play a game, if you don't have fun if you are playing it?

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Luhrian

[Sn4ke]

5 minutes ago, Luhrian said:

It doesn't matter how easy it is for Nod in the first minutes to  put GDI under pressure.

Oh, it doesn't? Well, that's your opinion. For me, it's part of the gameplay of this map. (same with OP Arties/Flamers on Volcano - hey let's change all the maps then!)

Anyways... there are other units/tools Nod can buy to get rid of sieging meds.

[Ruud033]

1 hour ago, Luhrian said:

So if Nod is under pressure, the GDI have a clear advantage and you don't have fun, if every Tank you are rolling out get killed by meds in front of your base. And why you should play a game, if you don't have fun if you are playing it?

If this is the case, I'd say a good commander would switch tactics (inf only) or deploy strategic infantry to counter those tanks to get a window of time to spawn those tanks.

Im not so sure if putting the HON first is such a good idea since it's a massive building.. (MRLS spam inc)

Maybe its better to block it off slightly with some rocks.. I'll experiment with it.

Also, in your second setup it's possible to kill airstrip and HON at once with a beacon, same goes for ref+airstrip. 
Given the fact that's an easy spot to defend (very flat) it's a bit OP

[Luhrian]

53 minutes ago, Ruud033 said:

Also, in your second setup it's possible to kill airstrip and HON at once with a beacon, same goes for ref+airstrip. 
Given the fact that's an easy spot to defend (very flat) it's a bit OP

Yes I was thinking about this too, but remember: it is just a pre-version

@DarkSn4ke

without Hand of Nod, there is no other option then tanks

Edited February 19, 2017 by Luhrian

[Sn4ke]

ok, let's put it in other words then: Nod can get in exactly that situation on ANY map. steamrolling meds on / near airstrip

it's not a map related problem (though map design can attenuate that)  but a building related problem

[Luhrian]

As a map developer, it is so easy to prevent that. And saying "that is on every map the same" isn't a reason to do nothing.

I mean, Ruud is just placing some rocks, so there shouldn't be a big problem for you.

[Hohndo]

On 2/19/2017 at 6:50 AM, Ruud033 said:

If this is the case, I'd say a good commander would switch tactics (inf only) or deploy strategic infantry to counter those tanks to get a window of time to spawn those tanks.

We were going back to tanks because they had 2 or 3 snipers just picking us off. I'd rather see something done with the snipers. Most aren't very good, but the few that are prove that there needs to be more balancing.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Hohndo

[Ruud033]

On 19-2-2017 at 6:50 PM, Luhrian said:

As a map developer, it is so easy to prevent that. And saying "that is on every map the same" isn't a reason to do nothing

True. I also noticed that Nod vehicle drops are easy pickings when the siege is on.

I'll post some stuff about it and see what you guys think of it.

On 20-2-2017 at 4:34 PM, Hohndo said:

but the few that are prove that there needs to be more balancing.

Agree, I think the snipers right now are from the Quake-3 Arena time period where there is no recoil what so ever, in most games like BF and COD there is some recoil and even movement where you have to stand still to aim for a bit. Maybe @yosh56 could try to add some recoil into this to make it require more skills?.. just saying.

[Hohndo]

3 hours ago, Ruud033 said:

Agree, I think the snipers right now are from the Quake-3 Arena time period where there is no recoil what so ever, in most games like BF and COD there is some recoil and even movement where you have to stand still to aim for a bit. Maybe @yosh56 could try to add some recoil into this to make it require more skills?.. just saying.

The problem there is that is still doesn't solve the problem. It might make their kill-per-minute go down, but only so much.

I do think the damage boost from veteran levels needs to be reduced. I don't think any sniper should kill on a full health body shot. Ever.

This is going to go against what I just said but I think it is the best way to level the playing field. I think maybe the best way to solve the skill gap here is to make the bullets travel slower and not be instant. It's a little more complex than I want it to be, but this also has a added benefit to help against aimbots and triggerbots in some capacity. The only way they should be 100% effective the way they work would be to be closer to the fighting. Which if that is all a person is doing, it would become a fairly obvious tell that way.

I want to add more to that but I gotta get back to work.

 

Edit:

It does introduce a learning curve because the further away you are, the more you have to anticipate what your target will do next.

I don't know how much this wil would actually change gameplay, but I'd like to see it play tested.

But this is a topic for another thread..

Edited February 21, 2017 by Hohndo
Clarification

[Ruud033]

So Ive changed the Nod base a bit, I also kind of liked the way you moved the airstrip tower to act as a first-defence. BUT moving this has one big disadvantage, Nod players will spawn much closer to the silo to capture the silo than GDI players. The GDI base is positioned much further back.

(Note that this Nod advantage was in this map from the very start too)

I moved the WF a bit closer to the middle too.

Not sure if this will cause huge problems. 
And for anyone wondering about the building double-nuke, no worries I got it covered.

Please post your thoughts. Personally im thinking about moving the strip tower back again and placing something else there

[Hohndo]

I really like that map change.

[Luhrian]

Can you upload it? I would like to take a look it in the editor, before I say my opinion.

[Sn4ke]

Seriously? That will cause only cause a slight change to gameplay, if nothing at all. You can add as much cover to the strip as you want to. - This won't prevent the game situation Luhrian is complaining about.

You can see this on any map (Yes I repeat myself). Once Nod lost the field (especially on non_def maps) GDI can detain Nod from using vehicles by destroying them as soon as they drop off.

Just consider what Kryps team did during the sundays PUG on Volcano [waiting for TK to publish the replay]. That was pretty much the same situation that caused this topic. Just another map [and we could just *farm* one vehicle.... as Tonys team already had given up].

Complex can already be considered as Nod map (especially on public servers) and with early Silo it's even getting much easier for Nod now [I guess ].

Edited February 21, 2017 by DarkSn4ke

[Luhrian]

23 minutes ago, DarkSn4ke said:

Just consider what Kryps team did during the sundays PUG on Volcano [waiting for TK to publish the replay]. That was pretty much the same situation that caused this topic

Na, not really the same situation. The differnt is that the tanks are coverd from the hill from the one side and you can easily save your tank. And if your tanks are killed from the tiberium cave, then the team did many things wrong. And it is easy to hide your tnak behind the Hand of Nod, Power Plant or the Refinery front

I nerver noticed, that 1 team is loosing all of their tanks through that on Volcano.

On Complex you can hit the spawning tanks from 3 sides, on Volcano only from 2 and really only from 1 side.

23 minutes ago, DarkSn4ke said:

Seriously? That will cause only cause a slight change to gameplay, if nothing at all. You can add as much cover to the strip as you want to. - This won't prevent the game situation Luhrian is complaining about.

Ruud have never said, that he want to prevent the whole situation (If you would ask me I would do that, but nobody is asking me, so).

I think, it is a good solution for all if make it like this.

 

Currently I doesn't saw enough, but I think Ruud made a good job and protected the dropoff good enough.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Luhrian

[Sn4ke]

If Nod has lost control over the map (or match) changing the map won't save 'em

And still you don't get my point...

[Hohndo]

3 hours ago, DarkSn4ke said:

Seriously? That will cause only cause a slight change to gameplay, if nothing at all. You can add as much cover to the strip as you want to. - This won't prevent the game situation Luhrian is complaining about.

You can see this on any map (Yes I repeat myself). Once Nod lost the field (especially on non_def maps) GDI can detain Nod from using vehicles by destroying them as soon as they drop off.

Just consider what Kryps team did during the sundays PUG on Volcano [waiting for TK to publish the replay]. That was pretty much the same situation that caused this topic. Just another map [and we could just *farm* one vehicle.... as Tonys team already had given up].

Complex can already be considered as Nod map (especially on public servers) and with early Silo it's even getting much easier for Nod now [I guess ].

Sooooo...maybe NOD should get it's own Weapons Factory?! I've been wanting to get one at least for some maps.

[dtdesign]

@Ruud033 I really like your change and would appreciate if you leave the strip tower at the new position. Not only to block vehicle farming, but also because it causes the tower exit to be rotated away from the main battlefield. It's not much fun to exit the tower through the only exit, just to be picked off by snipers having the day of their life.

[Sn4ke]

@Ruud033 please reconsider the balance changes before adding the "rotated strip version" to the upcoming patch

All I can do is to repeat myself: the situation which caused this topic can not be avoided by changing the map.

You can add a wall-of-yosh around all the stips of any map..... as soon as GDI has the field advantage and begins to either siege the Nod base or just rush / steamroll with meds / other tanks there is absolutely no way to prevent the "drop-farming" (besides: Nod can do the same, esp. during Flame rushes...)

edit: early silo can cause a huge discrepancy and here a disadvantage for GDI (ofc unless they capture & keep the silo themselves) many people think "yeah, silo is just a few creds.... not worth it." but that's simply a short-sighted point of view. especially during the early game the few extra ticks of creds can make a huge difference when it comes to the first tank rushes...

Edited February 22, 2017 by DarkSn4ke

[Ruud033]

21 hours ago, DarkSn4ke said:

This won't prevent the game situation Luhrian is complaining about.

I disagree, here is why:

I do not wish to build a giant Yosh-like wall to -only- prevent vehicle spawn exploits. Yes the airstrip is a huge flat piece of building, yes it is hard to balance it out with the GDI buildings since they resemble more to cubes than the Nod ones. Compensating for each building flaw would make the odds for every team even eventually but would also take out all of the risk of the game and the difference in teams.

Remember that Nod has different tactics than GDI and that always will be. The units are not equal, they all have their special abilities. 

I do not intend to completely block-off the vehicle spawn area, if you look at the GDI spawn area it's also quite open, there is not so much space to hide except for behind the ref and WF (and that easily get cluttered)

I've made these changes to give people more time to dodge the incoming fire with a decent time window, even with siege of 8 mediums pounding.

21 hours ago, Luhrian said:

Ruud have never said, that he want to prevent the whole situation

Exactly. If GDI is under fire they cannot fully retreat either. I believe that this situation will even the odds.
Here's some screens to show that you've got plenty of time to get out of the heat zone:

Siege spot 1, silo:

Siege spot 2, middle:

Siege spot 3, middle-low:

Siege spot 4, end of strip:

Remember, it is not impossible to kill vehicles but it makes it significantly harder now. I believe Nod and GDI have equal chances now. 
I see it this way: either Nod or GDI will siege a base and now have equal opportunities. The defending team, whether that'd be GDI or Nod have the same amount of choices they can make to counter attack. I made the Nod base favor Nod slightly now because they can use their up-close tacs (flamers/stanks) since their only mid-range vehicle is the scary light tank and only long-range is the arty.

[Luhrian]

Yoo Ruud,

Patch 5.285 is coming soon and I just wanted to ask, if you added the new Complex version to the patch.

If you didn't when will the new Complex be included in the game?

[Ruud033]

New complex has been built and is ready to ship. 

[Luhrian]

1 minute ago, Ruud033 said:

New complex has been built and is ready to ship. 

Good to hear that

 

[Madkill40]

Glad you sorted the danger zone on this map for Nod.

Just to remind the disgruntled GDI-favouritism...

Volcano had a minor addition of an extra infantry path to quell vehicle rushes and there's barely a dominance when GDI does get the lead.

On Under there is barely a chance to take advantage of the Airstrip's drops.

In most cases the Airtower blocks the vision or there is little for GDI to take advantage of, Islands is one of the only other maps where vehicles are massively exposed but even that is more limited than that of Complex.

Island's could only be 'balanced' by rotating the Weapons Factory 90/-90 degrees. (But that would just be multiplying the same issue.)

I like this change to Complex, farewell my favourite tactic as GDI.

[Luhrian]

You forgot Mesa. But I think Under is balanced, because the strip dropoff protect it very fast from enemy fire.

[Canucck]

Problem is more because of the increased vehicle limit and the entrances to each base being less of a choke. With 3-4 extra vehicles and extra room on the sides of each base it's really easy for a team to snowball into your base. The rocks that were added help attackers more than defenders too

[Luhrian]

1 minute ago, Canucck said:

Problem is more because of the increased vehicle limit and the entrances to each base being less of a choke. With 3-4 extra vehicles and extra room on the sides of each base it's really easy for a team to snowball into your base. The rocks that were added help attackers more than defenders too

You have a point, but we'll see how bad or good these changes are.

Maybe @Fffreak9999 can add it to the CT rotation for a few days to see how this is working. But for this @Ruud033 have to upload the map. Then we could find out if the changes are good or bad and fix them before we add it to a new Patch.

[Fffreak9999]

10 hours ago, Luhrian said:

You have a point, but we'll see how bad or good these changes are.

Maybe @Fffreak9999 can add it to the CT rotation for a few days to see how this is working. But for this @Ruud033 have to upload the map. Then we could find out if the changes are good or bad and fix them before we add it to a new Patch.

While I can add to the server, it would mean people having to download another map (and it would have to be called different as well since it would affect people's original Complex map if I were to override it).

[Madkill40]

Whatever you do don't say "Complex Flying" without the quotation marks, otherwise fffreak will get ideas.

[Luhrian]

1 minute ago, Madkill40 said:

Whatever you do don't say "Complex Flying" without the quotation marks, otherwise fffreak will get ideas.

PSSST

[TK0104]

@Ruud033 I think the Airtower is a bit too wide open

 

While Nod can't shoot WF from such a distance

 

Think the old Airtower Position was better

Edited March 26, 2017 by TK0104

[Xtractor]

 

26 minutes ago, TK0104 said:

Think the old Airtower Position was better

^^Fully Agreed

[dtdesign]

I'm also leaning towards the previous position, especially since the biggest challenge is now to reach the tower alive during a siege. If the tower then gets rotated in a way that it's entrance would face the ref/hon instead, it would also resolve the issue of getting sniped from mid once you try to leave the strip tower.

Also I would like to see an adjustment to the geometry near the Nod ramp to silo. Currently an arty can sit pretty much behind the rock and siege the WF out of mere safety. GDI must either attack from the mid -> silo path, but is completely exposed or cross the silo and engage up close and personal. In both cases GDI is at a massive disadvantage while MRLS can be easily picked off by Sakuras. I believe that a successful siege should be the result of teamwork and a good setup, not being massively favored by map geometry (Islands, I'm looking at you!).

Edited March 27, 2017 by dtdesign

[Sn4ke]

@Ruud033 / @kenz3001

bad collision, sneakers like to hide inside that rock

Edited May 16, 2017 by DarkSn4ke

[TK0104]

@Developers Are we going to switch back to the old Complex next patch?

 

People want it......

[Guest Gliven]

i mean....you can shoot weapons and ref with practically full cover, but sure...the airstrip tower is too exposed. How about fixing the b2b position for the ref?

[Madkill40]

Or go back to basics and try again.

[TK0104]

The original was much much better than the current one

 

Let's make it happen! #IwantOldComplex✌

[Ruud033]

On 22-10-2017 at 6:44 PM, TK0104 said:

@Developers Are we going to switch back to the old Complex next patch?

 

People want it......

Yes