Hotwire/Technician Nerf

[Hohndo]

 

Man, that was a lot to read. The idea that popped in my head was the same as I had when I read the OP, with the exception of nerfing to silenced pistol. I think that needs to happen regardless.
 

Initial idea:

Quote

My idea would be reducing the default timed c4 on Hotwire/Tech, keeping the same price on them, because thats a reasonable price at that point.

If possible, adding a 2nd purchasable c4 to just the Hotwire/Tech(/eng? maybe?) that costs 600/800 credits (I like the 800 cost here), this extra cost puts the loss at almost tier 3 costs. If thats not possible, then my suggestion gets a bit more complex. This solves the cost and effect issue for most people, I believe.

Alternatively:

Quote

 If the above isn't possible I would suggest adding a 2nd timed c4 that has a 50/60 timer (I want to lean toward a 60 second timer here) to go along with the 30 second one you start with. This gives all units more stealth options by making all other units more versatile, but it doesn't not give them insta-kill on buildings. That would still require groups. With it being so versatile, I would suggest a 800/1000 price point (I like the 800 cost here). I like this idea less than my above idea, but this opens engineers being as deadly at a much higher cost on games where you don't have a HON or Barracks. That would be a much bigger change in those circumstances, than the ovarall game I believe.

This doesn't eliminate insta-kill buildings, but it does make it harder.

The initial timed c4 you get on all units is perfect as is. It's the second one that seems to be the problem, so thats the problem I was attacking.

I don't really have a opinion on repairing speeds and and disarming speeds. The secondary purchasable c4 having a longer fuse time should settle some balance issues in that area, but isn't a solution.

I personally think that EMP should stay as is for vehicles, but on mines, it should have a shorter duration, and disable them rather than defuse them. But that creates a much bigger balance issue, so I think its fine as is currently till I come up with a better idea or hear a better one.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Hohndo

[Sn4ke]

On 25.1.2017 at 8:57 PM, Hohndo said:

I don't really have a opinion on repairing speeds and and disarming speeds. The secondary purchasable c4 having a longer fuse time should settle some balance issues in that area, but isn't a solution.

Given a Techie / Hottie reaches Refinery on e.g. Walls undeteced and there is NO active defender around the sneaker is inside the building within SECONDS

While sneakers using the purchasable  rep-gun need ~20-30 seconds for 3 proxies (they can disarm 2 proxies in - almost - one go, but then they have to recharge - and to avoid protection you just disarm to 1-3%)

[Redarmy]

Changing the price of Adv Engi shouldn't be considered an option. That's a sniper buff, everyone knows field repairs are crucial, and if they're less spammable, snipers taking them out becomes that much stronger. I don't think we need more people complaining about sniping and aimbotting as is in general.

 

My initial idea after the Sunday PUG was one echoed throughout this thread, change out their Heavy Pistol for the standard silenced pistol. Messing with Disarming Proxy settings like sound, time, etc, aren't bad ideas either. Though after reading through this entire thread, Denuvian's idea of using veterancy as a solution though I feel is probably the best, and most effective way to fix this. Either adjust C4 damages to where the full set (2 remotes, 2 timed) don't destroy a building on their own at lower veterancy levels (this can also be used to reduce the effectiveness of Remotes for early game defense). Alternatively, as a more complicated idea, take away the Heavy and second Timed, at Elite give Heavy Pistol back, at Heroic, give second Timed C4 back.

 

I'm one who doesn't necessarily like change, change scares me, but the idea of veterancy actually mattering for subterfuge just makes sense and kind of feels good.

[Hohndo]

2 hours ago, DarkSn4ke said:

Given a Techie / Hottie reaches Refinery on e.g. Walls undeteced and there is NO active defender around the sneaker is inside the building within SECONDS

While sneakers using the purchasable  rep-gun need ~20-30 seconds for 3 proxies (they can disarm 2 proxies in - almost - one go, but then they have to recharge - and to avoid protection you just disarm to 1-3%)

Thats just a aspect of the gameplay? Thats been a thing since day one of the original game. I mean, it just sounds like you don't like random matches with no teamwork. Not sure if you just want to avoid those in the future or not.

I don't know what to tell you about about the purchasable repair guns. I like and hate them. I do think they are at a good place right now, and I don't think they should be nerf'd very much if at all. Maybe 5% less speed on effectiveness and recharge? I don't feel this is broken right now, though.

It sounds more to me that you don't want sneaking to be a thing at all, or much harder to do..but its almost impossible at times when there is even one defender, let alone two depending on how many buildings and if there are defenses on the map.

I don't feel the balance is broken here. I feel the problems you are describing should be handled with teamwork.

Making the 2nd timed c4 purchasable at 600 credits would put the unit cost at 950, that knocks out the argument that down its overpowered.

4 minutes ago, Redarmy said:

My initial idea after the Sunday PUG was one echoed throughout this thread, change out their Heavy Pistol for the standard silenced pistol. Messing with Disarming Proxy settings like sound, time, etc, aren't bad ideas either. Though after reading through this entire thread, Denuvian's idea of using veterancy as a solution though I feel is probably the best, and most effective way to fix this. Either adjust C4 damages to where the full set (2 remotes, 2 timed) don't destroy a building on their own at lower veterancy levels (this can also be used to reduce the effectiveness of Remotes for early game defense). Alternatively, as a more complicated idea, take away the Heavy and second Timed, at Elite give Heavy Pistol back, at Heroic, give second Timed C4 back.

If there is any repair gun on it already, you can save the building from destruction 90% of the time.

I definitely dont like the idea of the c4 being at heroic, because unless you are super offensive and not dying a lot it takes roughly 30 minutes to get. Over a hour if you play support roles most of the time. So you are locking out this tactic to the most elite players you have.

[vandal33]

Remove Heavy Pistols, they have no reason to have it as they should be non-combat class with the weakest silenced pistol for light personal protection. C4s are fine to me.

And probably repair guns make some noise when they are firing, at least on mines.

[boxes]

Somebody mentioned that mines auto-repair if you don't commit to disarming. I like that as well. 

[Sn4ke]

49 minutes ago, Hohndo said:

I mean, it just sounds like you don't like random matches with no teamwork.

lol, true dat...

thats why I (almost) only play PUGs these days and do some test sessions with T.O.

[Hohndo]

1 hour ago, DarkSn4ke said:

lol, true dat...

thats why I (almost) only play PUGs these days and do some test sessions with T.O.

One thing I would like to add is the problem you were stressing is solo sneaking.

You'd just be forcing multiple people sneaking and suddenly, that one person you have defending probably won't be able to handle Hotwire/Tech and Mobius/Mendoza since most of the time in random matches, they are usually a Hotwire/Tech that sometimes has a vehicle.

[Sn4ke]

most sneakers are solo players. There are only a few duos or even trios and those are usually using TS.

But exactly THIS @Hohndo is the point. RenX is a team based tactic shooter. Sneaking is fun yeah. but mostly just for 1 person (the successfull sneaker) yeah and his team is happy too... but for the other team a single player is spoiling all the fun because he maybe just had a pinch more luck than the defender (if there is one).

Also, there are different ways of "defending".

e.g. shotgunners / SBHs / Chemicals camping Walls Tunnels (GateKepper / knabis etc.)

or. camping certain key buildings 24/7 (Boomer)

or "active defence" -> trying to defend all buildings, always running around (scanning GDI), building check if mines were lost etc.

[Hohndo]

Yeah, but for a couple PUGs during the last couple weeks, a single sneaker has been pivotal to a distraction, or turning the game around.

It's a strategy.

I think it's absolutely classless to do it in the first 10 minutes of the match, but that's just me. That's why I typically defend at first while everyone else gets their footing.

One team has to lose. Not everyone is going to be happy about it.

[Madkill40]

SBH and Patch are technically the infiltrators, why not 

On 1/25/2017 at 1:30 AM, Fffreak9999 said:

3x Blast Charge (Think Timed C4 but Building Damage is high) (All 3 should deal about 90% total health and armor damage from full (values can be adjusted to allow for balancing)

2x EMP Mines (Think AT mines, but about 50-60% damage and does an EMP effect automatically on detonation)

Since Nod gets a stealth unit just give Patch 2 Blaster Charges and the SBH gets one Blaster charge, this is with the additional nerf to Hot/Tech's as suggested by Fffreak.

Increase cost to 550 credits.

 

Blaster Charge should have a 45 second timer.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Madkill40

[Hohndo]

3 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

SBH and Patch are technically the infiltrators, why not 

Since Nod gets a stealth unit just give Patch 2 Blaster Charges and the SBH gets one Blaster charge, this is with the additional nerf to Hot/Tech's as suggested by Fffreak.

Increase cost to 550 credits.

 

Blaster Charge should have a 45 second timer.

I just want Patch to be off radar. Lol

[Redarmy]

11 hours ago, Hohndo said:

I definitely dont like the idea of the c4 being at heroic, because unless you are super offensive and not dying a lot it takes roughly 30 minutes to get. Over a hour if you play support roles most of the time. So you are locking out this tactic to the most elite players you have.

And? Doesn't that literally make the most amount of sense, only those at the highest veterancy should be able to destroy a building by themselves? And someone else mentioned sneaking is good for breaking stalemates, which is certainly true, and if you want to let the game get a proper flow going first before sneaking happens, this is literally the best way.

[Madkill40]

Good idea Redarmy, C4 Timed's could be unlocked at Elite instead.

[Sire]

In terms of nerfing Hotwire / Technician, I am in favor of reducing their C4 count so they no longer 1-shot buildings. They can lose a Timed C4 or some Remotes.

In my opinion, the main frustrating aspect of infiltration is the 1-shot factor. Reducing reducing the ability for a solo player to one-shot a building (instantly) would be beneficial in the long term. Duo or Trio infiltrations can stay effective as they currently are.

Remember that in Renegade X we have "Building Armor" and "Building Health." If an infiltrator manages to sneak in twice or sneak into a damaged building, then theoretically I'll be fine with if the structure is lost. What is frustrating to me is losing a building that has 100% Armor and Health instantly and no one knows what happened.

If losing a C4 or two is not enough, then perhaps Hotwires / Techs secondary weapon can be nerfed or changed (Heavy Pistol). Perhaps they can also be slowed down a little as well to nudge them more towards defensive play.

Another alternative is to keep the Timed C4 as is, but instead of 30 seconds to detonation, make them 45 seconds or even a full minute. This is a nerf to Timed C4 as a whole instead of just Hotwires and Technicians, but it may also work in regards to dealing with infiltrators to give the defenders more time to react.

[Kaiser739]

39 minutes ago, Sire said:

Another alternative is to keep the Timed C4 as is, but instead of 30 seconds to detonation, make them 45 seconds or even a full minute. This is a nerf to Timed C4 as a whole instead of just Hotwires and Technicians, but it may also work in regards to dealing with infiltrators to give the defenders more time to react.

This sounds like the best solution to me. 45 seconds should do IMO.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Kaiser739

[dtdesign]

Increasing the timer does not really address the issue of one-shotting buildings by a single tech/hotwire. While it does aid in defusing the C4 on time, it still requires the intrusion to be both detected and actually pinned down.

Especially in public games, there is a significant delay between disappearing mines and someone actually noticing it. Let's face it, more than often a building bursts into flames and you can read the entire team spamming "how?" in the chat because nobody noticed that 2 missing mines.

I'm also strongly against taking the PUG into consideration at all, this is about improving the overall gameplay and experience! PUG games might be cool, but still are like 5% of the time, compared to 95% spend on public games. The main goal should be to reduce the level of frustration that affects players and can effectively kill off the experience for new players.

[boxes]

A game like RenX needs to "work" when there's 10 people on a team. By that I mean different strategies need to have an equal balance of ups and downs in order for a game to be interesting. If there's a strategy that deems most optimal, the other strategies fall behind and suddenly the game becomes very boring. It's clear to me that currently that OP strategy is sneaking with a hottie/tech. I mean, it even works frequently right now in 20v20, and  25v25. 

This is why servers never fill up assuming there's enough players sitting around on the launcher. Until a server is like, 15v15 this game is basically SneakingX and see who gets luckier

[Hohndo]

50 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:

A game like RenX needs to "work" when there's 10 people on a team. By that I mean different strategies need to have an equal balance of ups and downs in order for a game to be interesting. If there's a strategy that deems most optimal, the other strategies fall behind and suddenly the game becomes very boring. It's clear to me that currently that OP strategy is sneaking with a hottie/tech. I mean, it even works frequently right now in 20v20, and  25v25. 

This is why servers never fill up. Until a server is like, 15v15 this game is basically SneakingX and see who gets luckier

I hear more complaints about snipers than I do about this issue, because usually they blame the team for not working better together, and I think thats where the heart of this issue really is at. Are we going to ban the good snipers or nerf those units to where those people start doing something else, then? We have good sneakers and good snipers that do unreasonable amounts of damage sometimes. Both of these issues are causing servers to not fill up and it'd be a shame if we addressed one issue and not the other.

 

17 hours ago, Redarmy said:

And? Doesn't that literally make the most amount of sense, only those at the highest veterancy should be able to destroy a building by themselves? And someone else mentioned sneaking is good for breaking stalemates, which is certainly true, and if you want to let the game get a proper flow going first before sneaking happens, this is literally the best way.

I don't have a problem with reducing the damage lower at Recruit level damage, then having the Veteran level damage be the same as Recruit now because that damage can be countered. That very counter made the PUG last a single map last a hour and a half today. Even at 0%, NOD kept that building the entire match, and even won.
 

What I would like to aim for is not having the hotwire/tech be able to do this till roughly the 12-18 minute mark. I prefer my matches to go about 40-ish minutes. But, once we've hit an hour, I'm typically just ready to move on unless there is progress being made. I think most people feel this way, too.

There are two ways to accomplish this, one being adjusting the Vet system for them, which I feel might be the best way.

The other being making a 2nd timed c4 purchasable which puts the price up to close to tier 3. Sydney/Raveshaw and Mobius/Mendoza can both take out buildings, they just can't do it as quietly, but they can still do it decently quickly. The trade off being that Syd/Rave and Mob/Doza have weapons they can actually defend themselves with in almost any case. That would unlock building destruction for Hotwire/Tech a bit sooner than I would like, but I feel people would be much happier with it being a lot less spammable.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Hohndo
Removed bitching that had nothing to do with this topic

[boxes]

The skill ceiling compared between sneaking and sniping isn't even comparable. Sneaking really comes down to being lucky that nobody looks in your direction while you navigate into a base. Situational awareness is obviously important while sneaking, but that's just something that grows on you when you have more experience in-game because literally everything else requires the same degree of awareness to maximize potential. Sniping on the other hand is important on a more team based perspective because without it, AT infantry such as Ravs/Pics/LCGs would be way too dominant and field repairs would have limited threats. Snipers also often have the most intel for enemy tank composition and infantry path circumstances, so the best ones often report back to a team, such as "repairs are down, play more aggressively", or "tunnels are quiet and open for an inf rush". Snipers are also important for covering superweapons and countering sneakers themselves. 

Snipers are not the reason why servers fail to fill up, despite as much as people wanting to believe in that. They become a hindrance to a team that remembers how cheap hottie/techs are, and are not a threat to structures.

[Redarmy]

56 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:

 ...this game is basically SneakingX.

That's a fun game, and I like showing off my skills with a Heavy Pistol in public games.

24 minutes ago, Hohndo said:

I hear more complaints about snipers than I do about this issue, because usually they blame the team for not working better together, and I think thats where the heart of this issue really is at. Are we going to ban the good snipers or nerf those units to where those people start doing something else, then? We have good sneakers and good snipers that do unreasonable amounts of damage sometimes. Both of these issues are causing servers to not fill up and it'd be a shame if we addressed one issue and not the other.

I vote we remove Ramjets from the game and see how that goes.

[boxes]

4 minutes ago, Redarmy said:

I vote we remove Ramjets from the game and see how that goes.

That's just going to further buff field repair and AT infantry

[Hohndo]

5 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

That's just going to further buff field repair and AT infantry

and aircraft.

[Madkill40]

The rank-level provides a good tier system, I'm curious if recruit-level players could actually have a reduction so a player can feel the benefits of Veteran a little bit more. Maybe recruit-level players don't get access to Timed C4s and Mines. Get Veteran - Gain Explosives. 

I pondered T3 Inf as well as Mammy/Stanks as inaccessible when a player is at 'Recruit' but that would probably be unfair, unlike with the accessibility to explosives for 'Recruit'.

 

Just an idea! A much simpler way would be to give the 2nd Timed C4 to the Patch and SBH and make the Patch a no-show on the radar. 

[Fffreak9999]

46 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

Just an idea! A much simpler way would be to give the 2nd Timed C4 to the Patch and SBH and make the Patch a no-show on the radar. 

2 SBH with 4 Timed C4 between them only need 30 seconds to instantly destroy a building and very little chance to stop it if they manage to disarm the mines, especially when you factor in the SBH's ability to kill infantry.

[Madkill40]

1 hour ago, Fffreak9999 said:

2 SBH with 4 Timed C4 between them only need 30 seconds to instantly destroy a building and very little chance to stop it if they manage to disarm the mines, especially when you factor in the SBH's ability to kill infantry.

And the same applies to 2 Patch, especially when you factor in the Patch's ability to kill infantry.

They cannot get inside a building unless they have a repair tool, which should remove Timed C4s from one of them if that is the case, you'd still have a higher chance of saving a building from two of these than 1 hotty/techie.

I would rather have the chance of saving a building before it explodes instead of a building exploding before I knew it needed to be saved.

Maybe instead of off-radar just give Patch the best damn detection against SBH that could ever exist in Renegade-X to better counter SBH as well as to coincide with this explosives switcheroo.

Patch, the Anti-Ghost. If you're SBH, cloaked and moving a Patch can see you from 3 mammoth tanks away in every direction, but if you're still enough he may not notice you. 

 

[Fffreak9999]

The main difference in this case is that Patch is not invisible, while I like the idea of losing the 2nd timed on item purchase. It would require quite a bit more than that, since 3 timed c4 is still enough to bring a building to critical and still have no time to respond, since all it takes is 1 repair tool to disarm the mines.

[Madkill40]

1 hour ago, Fffreak9999 said:

The main difference in this case is that Patch is not invisible, while I like the idea of losing the 2nd timed on item purchase. It would require quite a bit more than that, since 3 timed c4 is still enough to bring a building to critical and still have no time to respond, since all it takes is 1 repair tool to disarm the mines.

I thought the repair tool, like the beacon, removed the Timed C4 from it's slot to carry Rep-Tool/Beacon instead?

[Fffreak9999]

@Madkill40Nope, the item slot is never consumed by the default loadout.

This is why timed C4 is often placed after a beacon is planted to kill the Hotwires/engineers who stay too close to the C4 while prioritising the beacon.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Fffreak9999
updated

[Hohndo]

5 hours ago, Fffreak9999 said:

The main difference in this case is that Patch is not invisible, while I like the idea of losing the 2nd timed on item purchase. It would require quite a bit more than that, since 3 timed c4 is still enough to bring a building to critical and still have no time to respond, since all it takes is 1 repair tool to disarm the mines.

I do like the idea of Patch being off radar and having more visibility for stealth units, not a ton more distance, but some.

3 timed c4 is going to be the new trend if this issue is addressed with some major damage reduction on hotwire/tech.

Building stealth kills will not go away because of a fix here. They will just get harder to stop because now you have more offensive units infiltrating instead.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Hohndo

[boxes]

Again Sunday PUG showed that it's still way too easy to just non-stop walk in and blow up a building. Louder mine disarms didn't really change anything. Also taking out multiple PICs with my techie heavy pistol is just not right. 

[Hohndo]

2 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Again Sunday PUG showed that it's still way too easy to just non-stop walk in and blow up a building. Louder mine disarms didn't really change anything. Also taking out multiple PICs with my techie heavy pistol is just not right. 

Agreed on the PIC vs hotwire/tech.

Louder mine disarms would not have changed anything in this situation because everyone was preoccupied with the rush doing or preparing for rushes both times.

That person had good timing, which is not a reason to nerf. Even if this is locked out to higher ranks for "elite" players, the same thing probably would have happened.

But, since they were in a credit bind, having the 2nd c4 cost 600/800 credits, they might not have done it.

[Sn4ke]

Hmmm, I acknowledge the tenacity of many dedicated sneakers. What they (sometimes have to) do is literally counter camping. While defenders camp certain spots, the sneaker repeatedly tries to bypass the defender / camper.

Fixing the "one-shot" building kill is a good consideration. Though, Elites should be able to do it on their own within an adequte time span (consider PIC / Rav Elite -vs- MCT), but it's a "slow" building kill, you need good timing & distraction & keep in mind to trigger the "Building X under attack"-alarm on another building.

Increasing the Timed c4 timer can work, it would at least lower the defenders stress, increasing the sneakers adrenalin even more

In another topic @CampinJeff mentioned the problem that Nod bases are usually bigger than GDIs [MCT-to-MCT-route due to different building scale] so Nod defenders need more time to run to each building [needs more teamplay, good communication on TS, who's checking which building]. For Nod a longer timer would be a better defence buff than for GDI.

But for inf -vs- vehicle gameplay 30 seconds for a timed c4 are good in my opinion.

[Redarmy]

22 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

Also taking out multiple PICs with my techie heavy pistol is just not right. 

If it's so wrong, then why does it feel so right? Also, I was mostly joking about the Ramjet bit earlier, I don't ever expect Ramjets to be removed from Ren.

 

9 hours ago, DarkSn4ke said:

For Nod a longer timer would be a better defence buff than for GDI.

I mean, wouldn't it have basically the same effect? Cut the chance of a successful sneak in half or reduce by 25% or something regardless. Just making it even harder to sneak vs GDI than vs Nod.

[Sn4ke]

1 minute ago, Redarmy said:

I mean, wouldn't it have basically the same effect? Cut the chance of a successful sneak in half or reduce by 25% or something regardless. Just making it even harder to sneak vs GDI than vs Nod.

I just wanted to sum up some options

[boxes]

1 minute ago, Redarmy said:

If it's so wrong, then why does it feel so right? Also, I was mostly joking about the Ramjet bit earlier, I don't ever expect Ramjets to be removed from Ren.

You're a utility class with the best repair rates, defensive, and cheese mechanisms in the game, and can efficiently kill a combat focused 1000 character with your sidearm no problem.

[Redarmy]

2 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

can efficiently kill a combat focused 1000 character with your sidearm no problem.

Yes, the Heavy Pistol is strong, yes Hotties/Techs shouldn't have them (at least at first), but really, that's a skill difference anyways. Don't PICs come with Heavy Pistols as their side arm? They could literally switch to them, have 100 more armor, and still lose the shootout if they can't aim properly.

[Madkill40]

To summarize what has been repeated the most within this thread.

• Switch Heavy Pistol to Silenced Pistol for Hotties/Techies.
• Remove the second Timed C4 from Hotties/Techies. 

Hotties/Techies would no longer be an infiltrator unit with these two changes.

I find these two changes the most agreeable. [Edit: Is it time to vote for this yet?]

 

Alternative suggested changes.

• Elite/Heroic unlocks Heavy Pistol for Hottie/Techie
• Elite/Heroic unlocks 2nd Timed C4 for Hottie/Techie
• Mines auto-repair if left unattended for too long
• Hotties/Techies get a Machine-Pistol instead of Heavy Pistol
• Increase Timed C4 detonation timer from 30 seconds to 45 seconds
• Beacon/Repair tool overrides Timed C4 slot

Edited January 31, 2017 by Madkill40

[Hohndo]

I'm a bit more okay with machine pistol swap.

[Steelpoint]

Why not spawn Hotwire/Tech with a Silenced Machine Pistol and offer them the ability to buy a alternative weapon. 

For example they could spend 500 credits to buy a Heavy Pistol.

Its far more justifiable for a Hotwire/Tech to be able to hold their ground or be on the offensive if the total cost for them is 850+ credits than just 350 credits (this is excluding ideas of buying explosives)

Edited January 31, 2017 by Steelpoint

[Guest Gliven]

I would def not be okay with hotwire/tech having an automatic weapon. Either Give them a silenced pistol, Or redesign the heavy pistol to do more damage against vehicles and less to infantry. Swapping out for the silenced pistol is the easiest and least drastic change.

I suggest we try that, and then see how that goes, then decided later if we still need another adjustment.

[OTT]

Maybe remove their 2 timed c4 ,let them have 4 remote c4 if possible ,and see how it works.

Otherwise,just give them a silenced pistol instead of the heavy one and make the mine disarm sounds possible to hear from anywhere in the base,if possible.

[Sn4ke]

40 minutes ago, ObeliskTheTormentor said:

make the mine disarm sounds possible to hear from anywhere in the base,if possible.

no need for that. mine counter is sufficient for defenders to see that someone is trying to infiltrate them.

the increased mine disarm sound helps if you are nearby [but out of sight]

[Redarmy]

I just had another idea earlier this morning. Yesterday in public games I was doing a lot of infiltration with PICs/Ravs. If the team didn't have a real response to it, it was free building kills, but with proper response, which I'd expect out of PUGs, you can still get a bit of damage on it usually, but maybe not armor break still.

The idea is essentially, along with a slight nerf to adv engi, give a slight buff to the PICs/Ravs for infiltration to make them more favored to use, or at least even. Maybe a 25-30% decrease in the time it takes for EMP grenades to remove proxies. That way a proper response can still stop them, but they're rewarded never-the-less for making it there and getting some perma damage in. Basically a trade off in choosing between the two, a perfect adv engi sneak will still get you the building, but an ideal 1k sneak gets you perma damage, or if timed with MRLS/Arties attacking, a solid building kill.

[Sn4ke]

9 minutes ago, Redarmy said:

The idea is essentially, along with a slight nerf to adv engi, give a slight buff to the PICs/Ravs for infiltration to make them more favored to use, or at least even.

I don't think PICs / Raveshaws need a buff (MCT / building dmg). They are already quite powerfull. Elite PIC / Rav removes 50% Building health (shield) per clip. Also they got a heavy pistol as sidearm, which is very usefull against defenders if you either dont have the aim with the pic / railgun or dont want to waste clips on units.

[Redarmy]

1 minute ago, DarkSn4ke said:

I don't think PICs / Raveshaws need a buff (MCT / building dmg). They are already quite powerfull. Elite PIC / Rav removes 50% Building health (shield) per clip. Also they got a heavy pistol as sidearm, which is very usefull against defenders if you either dont have the aim with the pic / railgun or dont want to waste clips on units.

They're fine with damage, merely suggesting EMPs can disarm slightly faster since they give the alert of building under attack anyways.

[Sn4ke]

3 minutes ago, Redarmy said:

They're fine with damage, merely suggesting EMPs can disarm slightly faster since they give the alert of building under attack anyways.

just use the heavy pistol on a different building, or ask a teammate [easily done during a PUG] to trigger that alarm, then throw the EMP grenade. Then the only chance for the enemy to notice your EMP is the visual EM pulse

[OTT]

Just now, DarkSn4ke said:

no need for that. mine counter is sufficient for defenders to see that someone is trying to infiltrate them.

I was talking about the sound when the mine is being disarmed(when someone is firing with the repairgun at the mine),not the sound you hear at the moment the mine disappears.

[Fffreak9999]

1 hour ago, DarkSn4ke said:

I don't think PICs / Raveshaws need a buff (MCT / building dmg). They are already quite powerfull. Elite PIC / Rav removes 50% Building health (shield) per clip. Also they got a heavy pistol as sidearm, which is very usefull against defenders if you either dont have the aim with the pic / railgun or dont want to waste clips on units.

Clip is more than 50% since the base PIC can deal 100% per clip (4 shots)

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Currently 3 EMPs are required to instantly disarm a set of mines, which I agree is too much. There's too much standing around while the emps are disarming, usually resulting in somebody getting impatient and running in, or a camping hottie repairing the mines easily stopping the rush