Vanilla Mining - RenX Improvements & Revisions

[Sire]

Important Note: For this topic, the mining system is as it is in the current iteration of Renegade X - Hotwires and Technicians are the sole miners. For discussion on mining alternatives, such as automatic mining or laser defenses, please use the Mining Thread instead.

Edit: Added an additional poll option for favoring an alternative, even though alternatives are not discussed here.

This topic is a branch off of the Mining Thread, specifically focusing on how to deal with the vanilla mining system instead of worrying about alternatives. These proposals may revolve around changing other aspects of the game to accommodate for the mining system instead of revamping the system itself. In addition, feel free to mix and match between these ideas to create the best experience possible. Not all of these suggestions are my own, credit goes to whoever originally suggested them.

Other ideas and discussion is welcome here, but remember this topic relies on keeping the current mining system instead of replacing it.

Proposal 1: Have Advanced Engineers have only 1 Timed C4 instead of 2.

Yes, this is a straight out nerf to Infiltrators so no single player can blow up a building from max health. So, in order to destroy a structure, an infiltrator will need to bring a friend or need to solo infiltrate the building twice (maybe three, don't know the exact numbers) in order to destroy it from full health and armor.

The reasoning behind this proposal is that solo infiltrators are very powerful in the right hands, being able to take down a building alone. By removing just 1 Timed C4, infiltrators can still do permanent damage to a structure but give the defending team another chance to recover and figure out what went wrong instead of instantly losing a building. This "Second Chance" is what I believe will quell some of the frustration of the current mining system, even though the mines will need to be fixed, the team does not suffer massive losses due to one mining mistake. If it happens twice, then the infiltrator is just that good.

Proposal 2: Explosive Redistribution

A rebalancing of explosive distribution for infantry, bringing back Grenades to replace some instances of Timed C4. This should help somewhat with early game rushes since not everyone has C4, but may affect infantry versus vehicles negatively.

Soldiers - Now have Grenades instead of Timed C4.
Shotgunner - Now have Smoke Grenades instead of Timed C4.
Grenadier & Flamethrower - No changes.
Marksman - No changes?
Engineer - No changes.
Advanced Engineer - No changes, unless going with Proposal 1 which removes 1 Timed C4.

Officers - Now have 2 Grenades instead of Timed C4.
Rocket Soldier - No changes.
McFarland & Chemical Trooper - Now has a Smoke Grenade and a normal Grenade instead of Timed C4
Deadeye & Black Hand Sniper - No changes?

Gunner - No changes.
Stealth Black Hand - No changes.

Patch - Now has 2 Grenades and a Smoke Grenade instead of Timed C4.
Laser Chain Gunner - Now has 2 Grenades and a Smoke Grenade instead of Timed C4.

Havoc & Sakura - No changes?
Sydney & Raveshaw - No changes.
Mobius & Mendoza - No changes. // Alternatively, give them 2 Remote C4 instead of a Timed C4 to help their role with being a Tier 3 Infantry base rusher.

Proposal 3: Allow teammates to disarm their team's mines.

While this can be abused, the purpose is to allow for misplaced mines to be replaced by proper ones, or disarming mines in a destroyed structure. Whenever a teammate disarms a mine they do not own, a message will show up on the screen like overmining, such as "Sire is disarming near the Refinery!"

This should help newbies realize proper mining strategies when they find their mines replaced and explained on where to place them. Abuse should easily be covered by the vote system and local mods, with extreme cases being handled appropriately.

Proposal 4: Mine Radar

Essentially, have friendly mines appear on the mini-map. If mines are dropping and a door does not have mines, the team can mobilize to defend that building.

I'm a fan of the defending team searching through each building to discover which one has actually been infiltrated, so I don't care much for this idea.

Proposal 5: Miner's Club

Essentially, only "verified" players can mine. If players are not verified, they cannot use mines.

Not a fan of this system, how is a new player going to learn if they can't use mines first hand?

Proposal 6: Newbie Mining Areas

Marks out an area for new players that essentially says "Mine Here!" So, there will be a square just inside of a structure with three marks on the ground for mines. This can be expanded to HoN windows and Strip tower on flying maps, to non-standard locations on other maps.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Sire

[Sn4ke]

18 minutes ago, Sire said:

Proposal 2: Explosive Redistribution

A rebalancing of explosive distribution for infantry, bringing back Grenades to replace some instances of Timed C4. This should help somewhat with early game rushes since not everyone has C4, but may affect infantry versus vehicles negatively.

Soldiers - Now have Grenades instead of Timed C4.
Shotgunner - Now have Smoke Grenades instead of Timed C4.
Grenadier & Flamethrower - No changes.
Marksman - No changes?
Engineer - No changes.
Advanced Engineer - No changes, unless going with Proposal 1 which removes 1 Timed C4.

You don't want to change Grenadier & Flamethrower's abillity to destroy a building on their own within 40 seconds?

In regard to the other suggestions I don't understand that

[Sire]

I believe grenadiers and flamethrower rushes are viable, so that is why they are unchanged. It's just the support characters can't toss in another Timed C4 on top of the main rush.

At any rate, they are but suggestions, and they may not even be good suggestions. Refinements and discussion are always welcome.

[SvN91]

What's wrong with single players destroying buildings? Some games would last forever if not that one hottie or tech sneaks in and destroy a building. And if the infiltration succeeds it feels awsome. It's probably one of the most fun things in renegade. Why take that away?

[vandal33]

I voted for Proposal 3 and 6.

Proposal 1: Disagree because it indiscriminately punishes good infiltrators who managed to sneak in a properly mined base.

Proposal 2: I have doubts it will solve mining issue.

Proposal 3: Helps players remove bad mines or mines inside destroyed buildings quickly is good, with the message telling you who is disarming your mines can prevent abuse and bad miners can learn faster what they did wrong.

Proposal 4: While this can be useful to locate bad mines, I don't like how it pinpoints which building is being infiltrated without player efforts searching buildings.

Proposal 5: Not a fan of this system, how is a new player going to learn if they can't use mines first hand?

Proposal 6: Might work, a marker visible on the player's screen showing the proper mine spots when a player is wielding the Proximity C4 (and disappears when he changes weapon). It can be turned off at the settings and is turned on by default so new players don't miss it.

[Sire]

@SvN91

I agree that solo infiltration is a fun method of playing Renegade X as I also like trying to infiltrate and destroy buildings. However, I believe that solo infiltrators are the main reason why mines exist. Sure, mines also help with vehicle pilots running in after their vehicle is destroyed or mass infantry rushes, but it is the infiltrators that are the main problem.

Solo infiltration is a double edged sword. It feels great for the infiltrator pulling it off successfully and the infiltrator's team gets a boost in morale, while those who were infiltrated get frustrated and angry at their own team members. One of the major problems is the mines and if mines are not handled properly, the team can instantly lose a structure to a single player. This is especially the case for Nod because of the Hand of Nod windows and the Air Strip tower on flying maps.

So, the first proposal is meant to reduce the losing team's frustration, allowing them a second chance to check their defenses and mines. Solo infiltrating will still be viable, but it either needs to be on a wounded structure or need to be done a second time in order to bring it down. If the team is infiltrated twice and loses a building, they deserve to have lost that building. Also, all it takes for complete destruction is the engineer (or advanced engineer) to bring a friend as all classes have at least 1 Timed C4, and the friend can help cover the explosives if the infiltrators are discovered.

Yes, there are cases when the infiltrator is just that good and picks the right moment to blow the building up. Sometimes the team who is infiltrated is too committed to the offensive and lose a building because no one is defending. Sometimes no one listens, have delayed action, or are simply too far away to do anything when people say "Mines!" in chat, making it too late to save a structure. Sometimes the team is not even aware of infiltration due to misplaced mines.

Of course, in a perfect game, each team would have a dedicated defender or two patrolling the base to check up on mines and the MCTs. However, as this does not always happen and the fact that defense duty is boring, it is up to the mines to give an indication of infiltration. I believe solo infiltrators are one of the main reasons why the mining system is hotly debated due to the effectiveness of infiltration.

* * * * *

As an aside for the first proposal, if one still wants the Advanced Engineers to keep some explosive potential while not one-shoting structures, remove the 1 Timed C4 and add 1 Remote C4. Originally it was just straight out removing a Timed C4, which will make their C4 amounts the same as normal Engineers.

[j0g32]

I like your reasoning about solo infiltrators. Reducing the damage that a single hotty/techie can deal to a building, is a good idea - in orig. Renegade we didnt have permanent buding damage so i would fully support your point as it could well work in RenX 

 

While i am not sure about the actual redistribution of explosives, i think it is an interesting approach, and would add more variety and specialisations to different classes. Or at least timed C4 s a purchasble sidearm?

 

In C&C Tiberian Dawn the commando was the only unit to single-handedly blow up a stucture, but engineers could capture a building.

Maybe the latter could be reflected by giving repair tools the abilitiy to bring down ONLY an enemy building's armour. Just conversely as to how they only repair this armour. Hence Engineers would still be useful for building rushes troy-horse-style, i.e. hacking and shutting down the shield for any damage inflicted by team members to become permanent.

But that's another story ^^

 

B2t:

I believe the easiest way to  "teach" best mining practices is by showing the spots with decals and volumes, which also give HUD info when aimed at (with any weapon though).

Could also be map specific.

 

Mining radar - indifferent...

This would only make sense to me if mines cause team damage to infantry, vehicles and buildings.

But of course this would change a lot more, might be interesting how this plays out...

 

Minig club - def. No!

[Madkill40]

I like this poll, whichever way this turns out I'll still enjoy REnX all the same.

although...

Some of those "no changes" under Prop. 3 should be either EMP or Smoke Grenade. But Marksman - EMP Gren.

• Marksman and a Dead-Eye/BlackH-Sniper 
• damaging duo on the field to pick off a weakened target. 

Minedar - Basically promotes; Smaller games: solo infiltrator, bigger games: group infiltration. Smaller games could gain a huge potential maybe even more servers going. 

• can be an obscure visual aid to enable smaller player battles,
• creates less paranoia from your aggressive teammates
• more units with more group-based tactics for combinations of attack
• freedom to think outside the box of what to do to help your team

 

Swish.

[voltex]

I think people are making this mining thing far more complicated that it should be.

[Calvin]

1 hour ago, voltex said:

I think people are making this mining thing far more complicated that it should be.

1 topic closed another opened, silly monkeys

 

[vandal33]

9 hours ago, poi ❄ said:

1 topic closed another opened, silly monkeys

 

This topic opened before the other one closed because it's to narrow down the discussions into 2 separate threads, those talking about improving the current system post here and those talking about implementing a new system post at the now-closed thread.