Change Balance Approach

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[RoundShades]

I sort of agree with this, just not all the way.

Speeds should have been handled by simply removing just a little speed from AT-specialized classes, not removing speeds from engis and hybrids, and by adding significant speed to AP-specialized classes.

It isn't that bad right now though, LCG is a very specialized tanky infantry, and the others have mostly went back to either regular speed of buffed speed from Pre-5.1.

The only ones that are slower than their Pre-5.1 speeds, are Gunner, LCG, Snipers, Marksman, and Grenadiers. All of those required it to diversify them from brawling.

LCG tore up infantry when it had all that damage at regular speed but only delivered a single minute of field-sustainability against tanks because their splash was just too much to standard infantry.

Grenadier is free, and it is in fact better than flamethrower, you get what you pay for. It's DPS is better on vehicles than Flamethrower, and it's still relevant against infantry using terrain.

Snipers are not riflemen. If they are, remove riflemen from game, because riflemen have no point and are a "wrong answer". Snipers kill field engis, clean up remaining advanced infantry after Bar/HoN dies, and provide support behind riflemen. That is all snipers need to do, they do not need to kill everything in the game instantly, because then they are banned from Street Fighter tournaments... I mean... you know what I mean...

Everything else, either runs at 100%, or 110%, or 117.5%, IIRC. I believe Sydneys/Raveshaws were buffed back to 100% in 5.14...

[yosh56]

I sort of agree with this, just not all the way.

Speeds should have been handled by simply removing just a little speed from AT-specialized classes, not removing speeds from engis and hybrids, and by adding significant speed to AP-specialized classes.

It isn't that bad right now though, LCG is a very specialized tanky infantry, and the others have mostly went back to either regular speed of buffed speed from Pre-5.1.

The only ones that are slower than their Pre-5.1 speeds, are Gunner, LCG, Snipers, Marksman, and Grenadiers. All of those required it to diversify them from brawling.

LCG tore up infantry when it had all that damage at regular speed but only delivered a single minute of field-sustainability against tanks because their splash was just too much to standard infantry.

Grenadier is free, and it is in fact better than flamethrower, you get what you pay for. It's DPS is better on vehicles than Flamethrower, and it's still relevant against infantry using terrain.

Snipers are not riflemen. If they are, remove riflemen from game, because riflemen have no point and are a "wrong answer". Snipers kill field engis, clean up remaining advanced infantry after Bar/HoN dies, and provide support behind riflemen. That is all snipers need to do, they do not need to kill everything in the game instantly, because then they are banned from Street Fighter tournaments... I mean... you know what I mean...

Everything else, either runs at 100%, or 110%, or 117.5%, IIRC. I believe Sydneys/Raveshaws were buffed back to 100% in 5.14...

The hell you get these numbers?

The only infantry that are noticeably slower are snipers and the LCG. Engis/Rocket-Soldier/Grenadiers and Sydney are all just a hair slower, but 5% is unnoticeable imo, and is only used to keep the 10% gap between Nod and GDI infantry without always having Nod infantry 110%.

[RoundShades]

Actually, that was what I meant with the first sentence. I just think 110% is reasonable for anti-personell classes compared to the original speeds of all infantry. Little slowness for AT specialized classes are alright, but the original speed was fine and higher speeds are alright as long as they are limited to bullets. Also question the mandatory 10% difference in GDI and Nod, but not as much given GDI's Med Tanks.

Still don't find it bad at the moment though, as you said, most infantry is close to or well above the original infantry speed, and the ones that aren't needed it to put them in their role. The point is, his claim that infantry overall have slowed down is incorrect, infantry either stayed the same, got even faster, or aren't made for fast-paced gunfights anyway.

Engis were way slower, but were brought all the way back to 100% last patch weren't they? So they aren't even any slower anymore than before.

[Axesor]

Hi,

I think slowing down the game or classes is not a good approach of balancing.

Use Health->Shield->Damage->Fire Rate->Range for that !!

Some classes can not even run correctly, they walk. Other are to fast in comperison.

You slowed down the classes in EVERY way, from firing-reloading-running and walking. This is no way to deal with balance.

This is not how it's working. This game is rly too much "colorful" to be balanced all this way. I like how every class is different, and even at speed. I don't rly think they slowed down the game in any way.

The reason why certain chars (tanky chars, engis, techs/hotts) were slowed down is: to be ez target for snipers etc. The biggest problem of this slow characters or any character is- SNIPERS AND RAMJETS STILL CAN INSTA KILLS IN 1 HIT -plz fix No matter how slow they are, no matter how low armor do they have, no matter u add big spead, insta kill in this hight dps game will be always big problem. Even in many low ttk games sniper rifle doesnt kill in 1 hit.

[Profane Pagan]

Even in many low ttk games sniper rifle doesnt kill in 1 hit.

A bit off-topic sure, but I am okay with the deadliness of such sniper and high energy rifles. Sometimes you just need a strong weapon. Like in a session which has only 13 players and you are standing against a medium tank rush.

In my opinion the HITSCAN mechanism is the most problematic issue here. To be a good sniper at the moment, you just have to hover your mouse accurately. I would like to see actually flying anti-materiel rifle cartridges, maybe with some trajectory, which can be seen at the marksman's rifle.

In the moment when you get rid of this 90's gameplay scrap -the hitscan weapon-, instantly real snipers will born. Because this weapon would require real skill.

I am with those who like a good balanced skill-based mutiplayer game.

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Axesor]

Some classes are slower or faster becouse that's one of many aspects of character specialisation. Now we can't rly say what is real 100% speed, becouse everybody is different.

For example shotgunner: he needs to get to his target fast so thats why he is faster than many other characters. I don't rly think that certain characters are slow, they have just different specialisation.

I'd like to see even more difference between Nod and GDI: Nods sniper could have more armor but less speed while GDI could be fast as SBH but he would be weak as SBH...

The game is nicelly balanced imo (i would just appreciate even more different and specialised units). The only thing that brokes balance is good sniper... becouse he is not much speacialised, he is anti-infantry character OP in any range- That's what I am f*** calling for: for more specialisated units.

[Calvin]

all the changes are basically personal anyway, dont even bother complaining about the changes.

I feel like only 3 maybe 4 people wanted to change the sniper and they just did it without a poll or asking the community about it. Maybe you guys should make a poll about every change.. I keep saying this the changes did not make much sense to me and im sure im not the only one

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Profane Pagan]

I believe no soldier gains extra defense by carrying heavy machine gun in real life neither. In this game if you make the LCG more durable, you create a tank. He is strong enough.

[yosh56]

@DieN00b: More like snipers were literally the most complained about unit (for some very good reasons) since beta 1 came out.

As for something like the Lcg vs Sydney...Sydney also has 3 seconds in between shots...and the only reason for an LCG to ever lose to a PIC (or anything not a sniper across the field) is surprise shots.. Head to head the LCG takes down basically anything in <3 seconds

[RoundShades]

all the changes are basically personal anyway, dont even bother complaining about the changes.

I feel like only 3 maybe 4 people wanted to change the sniper and they just did it without a poll or asking the community about it. Maybe you guys should make a poll about every change.. I keep saying this the changes did not make much sense to me and im sure im not the only one

Actually, it is more like 4-6 of you want to keep the sniper, and everyone else who has ever played with these 6 people want the sniper to be removed from the game.

Luckily, you're wrong and this isn't a democracy. You have to trust that Yosh and company aren't the facists you make them out to be. If you want all-sniper-all-day version of Renegade, then look up W3DHub where the classic Renegade sniper is still 1 of the only 4~ units you can legitimately play with, and it alone can destroy the entire enemy team.

As it stands, there needs to be something to lay support-assassination. The sniper can't be removed from the game. However, it needs not have fair odds against tunnel enemies. Why can you simply not use an autorifle for that? I wouldn't mind if Hav/Sak could, and lo and behold they have a carbine to switch to, hit or miss or bodyshot or otherwise. Besides that, snipers weren't made for killing all infantry all ranges in 1-2 shots, they were made for generally acceptably high burst damage at distances they cannot be attacked back at, and killing tank engineers with acceptably low total health.

I won't take down a poll if you made one though, in case you are curious. I just simply do not promise a poll will decide the balance of the game, but I can promise it will be taken into consideration. The devs don't intentionally bork up the gameplay, but there are so many good reasons beside poll numbers not to make snipers instant-encounter-lethal, and gameplay results of current sniper show the players STILL have the dominant K/D in the game, which means nothing to gameplay except that they kill everything that remotely threatens them without dying to it. The deaths they do accumulate, are because other snipers are a thing that exist sometimes, unless only 1 of those 6 are present in a game, in which case they go unopposed.

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Ryz]

So, why not keep snipers as they are but make them more expansive? I mean a Mobius can be killed easily when it's out there, but a sniper just needs to get a 'space' from where he can shoot and if he has the right place only enemy snipers can take him out, unless he / she gets hit by a nuke or airplane...

[testman]

unless he / she gets hit by a nuke or airplane...

or any vehicle

[Terekhov]

Having played dozens of games now in this new meta, I don't understand the sniper complaints. They fit their niche, do well at that, and don't dominate the battlefield outside of it.

It's a skill based class on both ends. If you don't run/jump around when you see a sniper, of COURSE you're going to get shot by a decent one - and deserve it.

If we're removing classes just because they're annoying, I can give you a whole list. If your vehicles can't hit a sniper...get mad at your team, not a balanced unit.

[boxes]

Having played dozens of games now in this new meta, I don't understand the sniper complaints. They fit their niche, do well at that, and don't dominate the battlefield outside of it.

It's a skill based class on both ends. If you don't run/jump around when you see a sniper, of COURSE you're going to get shot by a decent one - and deserve it.

If we're removing classes just because they're annoying, I can give you a whole list. If your vehicles can't hit a sniper...get mad at your team, not a balanced unit.

Problem with sniping is that it's too easy and too rewarding. All you need to do is wait for the person to walk into your crosshair and click, and no matter what class you are, 1k or free, you'll either instantly die or get crippled immensely from a 500 headshot or ramjet bodyshot--from any range. Example, if GDI has 5 decent or good havocs in the field tunnel, there is literally nothing Nod can do to retake it except counter-snipe..and if Nod doesn't have any good sniper on their team, they won't be doing much except getting insta-gibbed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and(rage quit)

[RypeL]

Maybe we should think again about giving snipers some bullettraveltime ?

[testman]

Point and click adventures, where only puzzle is "use gun on man"

In the case of 5 godlike Havocs in tunnel, I would try to counter that with 2 SBHs.

Come close to them, drop timed C4 where they are standing and engage in close-range combat.

SBHs would probably die, but would provide good enough distraction for other teammates in tunnels to come close and deal with havocs.

In case that this is awful idea, please don't let me be commander and don't listen to my strategic advice.

[Terekhov]

Having played dozens of games now in this new meta, I don't understand the sniper complaints. They fit their niche, do well at that, and don't dominate the battlefield outside of it.

It's a skill based class on both ends. If you don't run/jump around when you see a sniper, of COURSE you're going to get shot by a decent one - and deserve it.

If we're removing classes just because they're annoying, I can give you a whole list. If your vehicles can't hit a sniper...get mad at your team, not a balanced unit.

Problem with sniping is that it's too easy and too rewarding. All you need to do is wait for the person to walk into your crosshair and click, and no matter what class you are, 1k or free, you'll either instantly die or get crippled immensely from a 500 headshot or ramjet bodyshot--from any range. Example, if GDI has 5 decent or good havocs in the field tunnel, there is literally nothing Nod can do to retake it except counter-snipe..and if Nod doesn't have any good sniper on their team, they won't be doing much except getting insta-gibbed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and(rage quit)

Oh, come on Tranq. Only idiots walk into crosshairs without moving/jumping; you're using crazy arguments. I get bias, but don't let it filter into your logic.

If the enemy team puts 5 good players sniping in tunnels, that gives your team a 3-4 man advantage in field; if your team is competent, that's easily an enemy building up in smoke. Even in this ridiculous "nightmare" tunnel-sniper scenario...the snipers aren't going to have any real affect aside from being annoying for SBHs lurking in the tunnels.

A class annoying you doesn't mean it's unbalanced, and doesn't mean it's a bad fit for the game. Edge-cases are also generally bad ways to justify changing the balance of the game; I think we could agree on that, at least.

Please, come up with logical balance reasons for changing snipers, not crazy scenarios which virtually never happen.

[Terekhov]

Maybe we should think again about giving snipers some bullettraveltime ?

What about:

+ Add bullet travel time

+ Add bullet drop

+ Increase magazine capacity by 1 bullet

[boxes]

My point still stands in that it's too easy to snipe. Doesn't matter what you do, zig zag or jump around crazily, as soon as the sniper crosshair turns red, they click and you're gone. Having a class that can insta-kill at any range while being so easy to use is a pretty big balance issue.

Making snipers projectile based would be nice to try out, but their reload time and maybe their RoF needs to be buffed back to what it was in previous betas.

[Axesor]

Adding projectile speed won't solve the main problem: they will be still OP in close-medium range, but long range nerfed? for snipers? This gives no sence to me. This is not BF where players are moving slow and even slower while shooting becouse of aiming, this is RenX where characters are fast, players are moving zig-zag and jumping side to side...

Imo Instant hit's are fine. Instant kills are not, not in this game. Please, please! think about removing Headshot multipliers from sniper rifles, ramjets, ion guns. Snipers will be still deadly but won't be able to instant kill ppl with full health, and free engineers would die in 1 shot from ramjet if you increase base damage to 175. Isn't it what you/we want?

2-3 hits to kill anybody with sniper rifle

2 hits to kill anybody with ion, ramjet gun and 1 hit to kill engineers and marksmans.

^ I call this adequately rewarded skill

-average TTK 3s = good for long range, worse for close range, becouse other characters can hit him easier. Player would have 3s to kill skilled sniper in close range!

I hate talking about balancing OP classes that everybody complains of, becouse there is always a person who call's this "skill". Yo, you know what? Go and bury!

Edited February 5, 2016 by Guest

[yosh56]

free engineers would die in 1 shot from ramjet if you increase base damage to 175.

... This is already a thing, and I'm shocked nobody's commented on it yet

[Axesor]

Lol, true, I checked it already. That's awkward...em...I am sorry for my little mistake. Well, it would take even less work then!

[Terekhov]

I enjoy popping engis with one shot, but the fact that 1000 snipers (or raves, or pics) can body-shot free classes for a kill is ridiculous. It's been a part of Ren for so long that we're used to it, but that doesn't mean it's good for the game.

Especially since raves/PICs have a magazine like snipers now, much of the original reasoning for that insta-body kill (long reload means they have a higher chance of dying) is invalidated.

Here's a proposal combining what people have said / what I think might be reasonable for game balance:

----------------------

----------------------

For Havocs/Sakuras/Raveshaws/Sydneys:

- Reduce damage to free classes from 100% to 70% (headshots remaining unchanged)

For Havocs/Sakuras/Deadeyes/BH Snipers:

- Add bullet travel time (across Field should be ~2-3 seconds, for example)

For Deadeyes/BH Snipers:

+ Add bullet drop

+ Add one round to magazine

[yosh56]

I enjoy popping engis with one shot, but the fact that 1000 snipers (or raves, or pics) can body-shot free classes for a kill is ridiculous. It's been a part of Ren for so long that we're used to it, but that doesn't mean it's good for the game.

Especially since raves/PICs have a magazine like snipers now, much of the original reasoning for that insta-body kill (long reload means they have a higher chance of dying) is invalidated.

Here's a proposal combining what people have said / what I think might be reasonable for game balance:

----------------------

----------------------

For Havocs/Sakuras/Raveshaws/Sydneys:

- Reduce damage to free classes from 100% to 70% (headshots remaining unchanged)

For Havocs/Sakuras/Deadeyes/BH Snipers:

- Add bullet travel time (across Field should be ~2-3 seconds, for example)

For Deadeyes/BH Snipers:

+ Add bullet drop

+ Add one round to magazine

There's literally only 2 infantry in the entire game that can be body-shot by the Ramjet, Marksman and Engineers, so I have no idea where the problem is there.

Also, PICs and Ravs having a clip doesn't mean much...they still have a longer reload than any other gun in the game.

Go on, but most of those ideas just seem weird as hell when put along side other guns. They're already weird enough being one-shot-kill in a game where automatics take ten shots to the face to kill someone.

[Terekhov]

I enjoy popping engis with one shot, but the fact that 1000 snipers (or raves, or pics) can body-shot free classes for a kill is ridiculous. It's been a part of Ren for so long that we're used to it, but that doesn't mean it's good for the game.

Especially since raves/PICs have a magazine like snipers now, much of the original reasoning for that insta-body kill (long reload means they have a higher chance of dying) is invalidated.

Here's a proposal combining what people have said / what I think might be reasonable for game balance:

----------------------

----------------------

For Havocs/Sakuras/Raveshaws/Sydneys:

- Reduce damage to free classes from 100% to 70% (headshots remaining unchanged)

For Havocs/Sakuras/Deadeyes/BH Snipers:

- Add bullet travel time (across Field should be ~2-3 seconds, for example)

For Deadeyes/BH Snipers:

+ Add bullet drop

+ Add one round to magazine

There's literally only 2 infantry in the entire game that can be body-shot by the Ramjet, Marksman and Engineers, so I have no idea where the problem is there.

Also, PICs and Ravs having a clip doesn't mean much...they still have a longer reload than any other gun in the game.

Go on, but most of those ideas just seem weird as hell when put along side other guns. They're already weird enough being one-shot-kill in a game where automatics take ten shots to the face to kill someone.

Why have any, why let those two be one-shot kill? (Aside from "they have flak armor")

All they have to do is hit things 50% of the time (or headshot), and they're fine. Not to mention they still have pistol...if someone can't hit an engi with 4 chances to do 70% damage + an entire pistol magazine, that's a personal problem, not a balance problem?

Re: the rest of it, ignore for now. I've talked with a few people and come up with some ideas we can discuss at some point.

[Axesor]

Why have any, why let those two be one-shot kill?

Becouse snipers were meant to be engis killers, and marksman's were too dangerous for snipers before patch so I guess dev's decided to nerf him...but I think he is nerfed too much now. If I could decide, I would make only 1 of made nerf's: only 175 overal hp or only adding projectile travel time.

There is rly not much what can be done with snipers to make them balanced and mainly long range specialised besides:

a) adding big spread while hip-fire and moving while scoping+adding projectile travel time same as marksman has. With this change they still would be able to kill in 1 hit but it won't be too easy and they will be very long range oriented.

-every sniper hates this solution and arguments with that big spreads doesn't belong to this game and that it's punishing skilled snipers and blablabla

b) removing headshot multiplier.

[Ryz]

I don't have a problem with snipers themselves, but I have a problem with how they are used sometimes. I often see this happen on Marathon:

a) Team A corners team B with vehicles and kills a building (ref for example, or sometimes strip / WF)

b) HON / Baracks still stands.

c) The team in the defense cannot get vehicles due the strip is lost or the fact they are expansive and IF they can get a vehicle the other team will kill it at delivery, although cause nobody can repair.

d) The enemy doesn't finish it, but instead gets between 2 and 10 snipers and starts killfarming

e) For 20 min till way longer time nothing happens except the losing team buys a unit and gets shot, you respawn, walk out and get shot...

I had rounds of Islands & Field where the half of the team was sniper and some kept going on for 40 till 50 minutes without any progress except some people having a huge K/D.

Now that's when a sniper is annoying...

[Axesor]

^ sniper limit per team maybe?

[Canucck]

It's a skill based class on both ends. If you don't run/jump around when you see a sniper, of COURSE you're going to get shot by a decent one - and deserve it.

Like 95% of players run in straight lines or jump against snipers. Jumping is worse than running in a straight line

Also there are a few classes that are just outright better than either snipers now anyway

[Terekhov]

It's a skill based class on both ends. If you don't run/jump around when you see a sniper, of COURSE you're going to get shot by a decent one - and deserve it.

Like 95% of players run in straight lines or jump against snipers. Jumping is worse than running in a straight line

Also there are a few classes that are just outright better than either snipers now anyway

That's their fault. If you jump + sprint randomly it's reasonably hard to hit until you get someone who spends a lot of time getting good at it.

I mean I agree...but that doesn't mean they don't need changed. Just not going to continue the discussion on here because it's hard to have profitable conversations, esp. on this topic and a couple others

[Axesor]

^ You shouldn't be able to 1 hit kill with that classes or if so then that class should be super speacialised, in this meaning we can now make every class what cost's 450c+ able to 1 headshot kill everybody. Get it? It would be skill rewarding so what would be problem then? Eitherway sniper is not super specialised, he is not mainly good in long range now. It's universal anti infantry unit for all ranges so there is something wrong then and it should be fixed.

Only adding projectile travel time would nerf them from long range only and it doesn't make any sence to me without any other changes focused on sniper characters. I think snipers are supposed to be long range character so pls let's stick to this.

What about this:

Snipers-my previous suggestion about adding big spread+projectile speed

PIC, RAW-no headshot multiplier so they don't necessary need to scope but won't be able to 1 shot kill full healed character.

?

Yes, I know I am annoying but I hate this character since first day I started to play RenX and they make me mad every single day I play it. So that's why I am so inflame in topics about snipers. Sorry

[Terekhov]

I hear ya Axesor. Lemme gather my thoughts and ping them off some people this weekend; I think you're right, focusing on long-range nerfs might have been the wrong way to think about this.

[Idiotas]

Snipers are supposed to be long ranged and a support class. Not a close-combat killing machine in tunnels ect. Nerf them at close range. I still think they should headshot characters excepts for some classes like LCG's. Make the rate of fire and reload speed a bit slower.

I don't know if it's possible but can't the damage received from snipers be differen't on where the target is? Like it does small damage at close range but greater damage at long range?

[ex_member]

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Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Axesor]

I think I can be enought objective throught my madness to simply say that current sniper is not alright for reasons I wrote above. You just misunderstand point of topic, PIC and RAW are also "sniper characters" that we are talking about and they are not ok.

[Idiotas]

Snipers are supposed to be long ranged and a support class. Not a close-combat killing machine in tunnels ect. Nerf them at close range. I still think they should headshot characters excepts for some classes like LCG's. Make the rate of fire and reload speed a bit slower.

I don't know if it's possible but can't the damage received from snipers be differen't on where the target is? Like it does small damage at close range but greater damage at long range?

According to you guys, snipers should be cut down in every kind a way.

You are using arguments just for sniper case, forgetting to use the same arguments for other classes. For example there are not much places in maps where snipers can use their long range. In most situations the range in the maps, when infantry is fighting, is enough for Sidney to get you one-shot killed. Nobody talks about that ? In that case, it is OK, because it is Sidney and not a sniper.

I think you are just not realistic enough. Yoou are just pist off and hate the sniper class.

It is best to cut 2 legs and one arm of from sniper class and give them just one bullet. Perhaps, reduce the damage for that bullet to 0,5 so no one gets one-shot killed.

I expect that in the next patch !

you are so wrong in many ways here.

1. I snipe.

2. I don't hate snipers.

3. I never complained about them (just said what's mostly the case in tunnels aka snipers camping).

4. I like how they are right now.

5. I only suggested some ideas since other people keep complaining about them.

6. I'm okay with both sydney and sniper.

7. I think you are just pissed off at my post.

8. Use your arguments against someone else.

9. Have a nice day ~

Edited February 7, 2016 by Guest

[RoundShades]

I think I can be enought objective throught my madness to simply say that current sniper is not alright for reasons I wrote above. You just misunderstand point of topic, PIC and RAW are also "sniper characters" that we are talking about and they are not ok.

After all those sniper-notorious players and their recent use of rail/pic, this is also glaringly obvious, for same reasons as sniper. Insta-kill lethality in a low-lethality game, is way too durastic a difference in lethality.

Since it takes 40 shots to kill on average for an autorifle, theoretically, a sniper with that sort of damage should actually have a rof 1/40th of an autorifle. Now, if an LCG or Volt fires 4 rounds a second, that means snipers should get 1 shot every 10 seconds given their dps? Troll logic.

Or, we can just decrease their lethality to headshots on low infantry and/or change the way they function at range. Really, the current changes are already better, you act like snipers still don't make all the difference in servers. If nerfed to uselessness, why are they still abundantly used? Really, the fact rail/pic is what is fallen back on, means that maybe it's infantry damage should be equal to ramjet, while maintaining it's huge tank damage and AT equipment and speed. Still better than ramjet, minus a limited range compared to limitless.

I mean, it makes sense, that insta-lethal snipers in call of duty where SMG kill in 2-5 bodyshots, don't belong equally in Ren-X where 10x the bullets for other weapons are required. I am not saying it should take 10x the bullets for snipers, but the marksman is a lot more sane, and in that wake, severe damage with a single shot sniper is fine without it being insta-lethal. Being brought down massively in health, is a huge debuff just in itself, a little splash from a tank shell or a run-in with any enemy at all is a guaranteed death sentence.

[Axesor]

We were talking and theorising too much about snipers already. Countless threads was created complaining about them. It takes years and there is no fix coming any soon to fix them.

I see devs are worry about doing some drastical changes about sniper characters, so why don't we (players) just already try some of these ideas in practice instead of endless theorising about it?

Making stats editing mutator's is very simple. Me or someone more experienced can make one and with permition of one of the server owners we could test some these ideas already.

I already tested some of my ideas so I know what I am talking about and there was absolutely no problem playing as sniper even throught average TTK of other characters was a much smaller. Do you?