Remote C4 delay.

[FlowMotion]

Cannot stress how awful this update is to the game. It takes away a huge defensive mechanic of engineers. Stop changing awesome original Renegade mechanics. Put remote c4 back to instant blow time.

[RoundShades]

I don't think it needs instant, but way too high atm. Needs to be like no more than 1 whole second delay from throwing. No longer than it to touch the ground.

The delay on it atm, is just way too long.

[Agent]

I absolutely preferred Remote C4 as being instantaneously ready; suicide engineers weren't really an issue in the previous patch, and honestly have no idea why this was added.

It's not because Engineer's were too strong, that's for sure.

[DoctorB0NG]

It's not to prevent suicide engineers, its to prevent engineers from insta gibbing huge amounts of enemies when in a building. It's such a backwards thing that a free infantry had the most potent defensive weapon.

[Agent]

So you're saying the splash was too large? Sounds odd to try to fix a large splash with a delay.

[DoctorB0NG]

Their splash and damage make the weapon too easy to use and the delay changed that. It probably needs a nerf to both damage and splash instead of a delay. Either way, the delay definitely did an effective job in making infantry combat much more interesting in my opinion.

[RoundShades]

Their splash and damage make the weapon too easy to use and the delay changed that. It probably needs a nerf to both damage and splash instead of a delay. Either way, the delay definitely did an effective job in making infantry combat much more interesting in my opinion.

Always was interesting how grenadier splash is point blank, as well as Mendoza's splash, but remote c4 and even timed c4, have a huge radius that can cover both sides of the Field tunnel if placed in the center. Can the radius be made more thin, the damage falloff more severe when not at point-blank? I am asking for a lower max-radius and a lower min-damage. 20 damage at shoulder's length should be normal.

[FlowMotion]

Nerf em, but the delay is sooooo awful.

[Canucck]

The inner radius is too big on pretty much every splash weapon in the game. Panic throwing remotes might be better if it was smaller. Outer radius being big is fine as long as there is a significant dmg dropoff, even if it's not linear

[Mystic~]

Suicide engineers were a pain previously, there were a few suggestions made including speed and a timed delay.

https://renegade-x.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=169&t=75745

The current time should probably be reduced from whatever it is, but I think it was a positive step that just needs refining.

[RoundShades]

The inner radius is too big on pretty much every splash weapon in the game. Panic throwing remotes might be better if it was smaller. Outer radius being big is fine as long as there is a significant dmg dropoff, even if it's not linear

Agree, but if it's not almost touching, it shouldn't do more than 50 damage to infantry.

If almost touching, touching, or attached, we can do 120-200.

[Chrisjh0223]

It's such a backwards thing that a free infantry had the most potent defensive weapon.

This statement does have some merit. However, in the condition that your vehicles and advanced characters are all gone (and you have too little money for Chaingun Officer or Chem/McFarland) you should at least have somewhat of a chance against vehicles and even 1K characters. Good ol' Engies from OldRen have this, why not RenX? I mean really, whether you're in a vehicle or on foot if an enemy engie manages to get too close to you, you deserve to get pounded on by his C4 (or her in the case of a Hotwire). This is great against Mendoza, who has a very devastating Tiberium Auto-rifle now, what else are you supposed to do to him if free infantrymen are your only option?

If anything, the base Engineer class is very much deserving of using Remote C4 as a standard weapon, especially since only 2 are issued at any given moment. If he uses them both up before attacking an enemy MCT, he must get them back at a terminal in his own base and thus loses one of his functions in the field/enemy base.

[RoundShades]

It's such a backwards thing that a free infantry had the most potent defensive weapon.

If he uses them both up[...], he must get them back at a terminal in his own base [...]

The problem is, it's neigh impossible to threaten a structure, because a single engi is a God of War when standing 2 feet from a terminal. Check every structure, there is a terminal 2 feet from every MCT and door. This is why a single engi can annihilate 3 sbh or mendoza, because even focus fire doesn't stomp the life out of veteran-level refill-spam via E->R->E->R, and the second the enemy reloads you insta-c4 them and E->R->E->R...

This is why personally, I say, nerf the damage to the splash so it's only 50-40 unless that c4 is practically touching the target in which case 120-160 damage is reasonable. What you NEED after that, is to limit refills to 1 every 10 seconds. If you need a refill sooner, you were killed and belonged dead. What you NEED after THAT, is to make a death last 8 seconds, so the guy you killed don't spawn at the same terminal you killed him at.

All this is very simply necessary, to make attacking a building have any meaning at all. If you kill the repairmen in a base, you shouldn't basically insert them into the building they needed to repair anyway, which is what's going on now, and when the defender uses c4 and kills 3 people, he shouldn't be able to refill and kill an additional 5. What you use if infantry launches an assault in your structure, is a flametroop, shotgunner, or autorifle, because those are AP combat units, not repairmen. C4 should work, but not 12v1.

[djlaptop]

The biggest problem I have with the delay is not being able to detonate a remote c4 just as you're getting run over by a vehicle. There were many times in the past where I was able to destroy the vehicle and save myself from being run over, but now even with the reduced 1s delay that's damn near impossible. Especially for those of us in the US with a 300ms+ ping time. That delay, when added with the latency is an unreasonably large nerf for remote c4 imho.

[Terekhov]

You know those quick patches you're doing nowadays? This is a prime opportunity to release one of them.

Maybe this seemed like a good concept at the time, but it's an abomination in practice.

There have been so many good improvements to the game in the past year, but this change stands in stark contrast. I'm absolutely for changing the game in productive meaningful ways (away from C&C Ren if it's helpful,) but this change is not one of those.

If an engi kills someone in the field with C4, they deserve it.

If an engi kills someone in base...they deserve it.

Only case here that's cause for concern is the insta-refresh defense mentioned above, and that could easily be remedied by changing the refill rate to one every 5s instead of perma-instant refills if it is really deemed a problem.

Let's consider though:

1) One decent player (and certainly two) can easily destroy someone's health before they refill (done it countless times).

2) REMEMBER, the point is just to delay defense long enough for C4 to go off; you don't even have to kill the engineer to win that battle.

3) Based on the above, I'd argue it wasn't actually broken.

4) Even if you believe the building scenario is too "hard" for people, is it so breaking that it's worth gutting remote C4 in every other scenario in the game?

Like djlaptop mentioned, this change absolutely crushes engis/hotwires trying to defend late-game against a rush, survive against infantry (field, tunnels, silos), or just survive after their vehicle gets destroyed...many of the most common happenings in the game.

If you've considered and think it really worth, make the remote C4's inner-splash radius smaller, but for the love of our sanity remove that terrible delay. It's a nuisance and should *never* have been implemented.

#RemotelyEffectiveC4

#RemoveDelaysWithoutDelay

[RoundShades]

If an engi kills someone in base...they deserve it.

If they kill someone in base, they deserve it. If 2 engis kill all of Nod's team in GDI base, I beg to differ. Defender advantage and all, but not that extreme an advantage, not when the objective is also the spawn. Would be nicer about it, if there was a specific structure everyone spawned from and wasn't the target of onslaught. Might actually pitch an idea for that later in fact.

1) One decent player (and certainly two) can easily destroy someone's health before they refill (done it countless times).

It can be done, but not by any means easily. You have to do it before they press E>R>E>R really quickly when facing a terminal at anything around a 90 degree angle. I have aimed a volt rifle head-level, and someone got out a refill and side-stepped with 1/4 health taken off. It entirely depends on latency and how fast someone pulls off E>R>E>R, which isn't that difficult. This is where Refill Delay is vital to add (tied to free infantry purchase, of course, because otherwise buying endless free engis is basically a refill).

2) REMEMBER, the point is just to delay defense long enough for C4 to go off; you don't even have to kill the engineer to win that battle.

3) Based on the above, I'd argue it wasn't actually broken.

Oh, it was broken. It takes 30 seconds, if discovered in 24 seconds, it takes 1 engineer with infinite refill 8 seconds to dispatch of 4 enemies. Then, with q-spot mct c4, 4 others come to assist and their burst-damage of c4 can already do the job, and their total diffuse time becomes way fast.

4) Even if you believe the building scenario is too "hard" for people, is it so breaking that it's worth gutting remote C4 in every other scenario in the game?

Tunnel engineers were POS too, but to be fair, AP infantry got speed bonuses, and AT infantry got heavier resistances to c4, so this is in fact no longer a problem, a nerf on a nerf if you will (like airdrops cost+timer+deliverydelay+notanks).

Like djlaptop mentioned, this change absolutely crushes engis/hotwires trying to defend late-game against a rush, survive against infantry (field, tunnels, silos), or just survive after their vehicle gets destroyed...many of the most common happenings in the game.

The last 2 points, is why I agree perhaps delay should either be slightly reduced, yes, to barely anything at all (because instant murder-suicide c4 were stupid), or just removed and allow engis to murder-suicide. Because it was nerfed when infantry were given speeds and armors, I want to see what it looks like with only one nerf or the other. Yosh may be resistant to it, but I still support it just to see if stupid or not.

Nonetheless, if Respawn Delay and Refill Delay are implemented, I think for absolutely sure that engis need remote detonation near-instant or instant, as their suicide is a timeout for 8+ seconds while their base gets rekt so they are much more persuaded not to do that shtuff, and their bum-rush is already risky so that also works itself out.

Bottom line though, as far as killing a structure, if you kill a structure you kill a structure, if engis are killed by intruders then they were using the wrong class to kill what is essentially infantry (you need enforcers to defend base and not just engis), and stalemates are still common which shows that "base defense" isn't as impossible as made out to be.

[Idiotas]

This is great against Mendoza, who has a very devastating Tiberium Auto-rifle now, what else are you supposed to do to him if free infantrymen are your only option?

Shotguns. Shotguns 2 shot him. Very effective (unless it's canucck).

If an engi kills someone in base...they deserve it.

Hmm do they also deserve it by insta killing 5 people in one time while the engi is just waiting behind a door till they come in?

---

Biggest problem is the splash radius i guess. Toy around with it till it's alright.

[Terekhov]

1. You don't rush in a building before opening/checking door

2. Everyone knows you don't mob in a glob, it's asking for trouble whether you're facing an engineer, chem trooper, farland, patch, etc etc etc.

3. If you follow the two above, then only a smart engi who's hiding his c4 is going to take out more than half your force.

If you have 5 why aren't some going to another building or nuking/ioning? Insta-C4 is literally encouraging good gameplay and discouraging stupid play in this scenario.

---

But yea. If they did the splash radius like we're talking about, you could still use C4 for building defense without attackers getting massacred via little effort. At least engineers have to throw C4 carefully then.

[djlaptop]

Some interesting behavior of the c4 delay that irked me in a match yesterday. If you throw a remote c4 and wait your 1s before you can detonate, and then you throw your second c4, it "resets" the delay for both c4's. I should be able to at least donate the first c4 I threw down and already waited my 1s for.

[Terekhov]

Having played dozens of games now...C4's blast radius already isn't that big, and you actually have to be accurate in your throws to do serious damage. Why is it still on a delay?

There are so many little tactical moves that this prevents you from pulling off re: killing vehicles, saving buildings, etc. Taking away tactics doesn't balance the game, it just makes it less enjoyable.

Can we get a dev response on this?

[boxes]

Because having a delay prevents engineers from being the most lethal free combat class in the game, without any regards to their safety (doesn't matter because they're free). It promotes the use of grenadiers and flamers when there's a tank rolling around a base and not getting an engineer to instant gib yourself next to the tank and rinse&repeat. It promotes the use of shotgunners when there's people inside a building. It was imbalanced in so many levels, and now the game is so much more fun without getting instantly blown up by engineers.

[Terekhov]

You missed the part where the damage/explosion got smaller. That already went a long way to balancing it.

---

Some good thoughts though; gave me an idea which should satisfy everyone.

With how the game is right now, I simply ignore engineers unless I recognize them as good at pistols (or if a vehicle, ignore completely.)

Having a 7.5s spawn delay on remote C4 activation (i.e. engineers can't throw them for 7.5s after spawning) would go a long way to fix the rinse/repeat problem in buildings; after all, that's ~1/3 of a timed C4's clock.

That 7.5s change keeps engineers from being the favored class for defense without neutering them vs. every single other class in the game.

Re: vehicles - Try killing a flame tank with a grenadier and learn the meaning of rinse/repeat. That range/damage combo is atrocious and gives basic infantry no realistic chance whatsoever.

It makes sense to have flamers/grenadiers for lighter/faster vehicles (range/speed), and C4 to target heavier vehicles (firepower/lack of speed).

That forces vehicles to face a variety of threats and forces infantry to use a variety of classes.

Summary:

+ 7.5s spawn activation delay for engineer's remote c4

- Remote C4 activation delay

Result: More Tactics/Diversity for classes.

[boxes]

Engineers shouldn't even be considered when you want to do something combat based.

[Idiotas]

Engineers shouldn't even be considered when you want to do something combat based.

And that's what a lot of people forget.

[testman]

Wait, are you saying that I should not use engineer's C4s to decrease number of flame tanks that just invaded my base?

I don't see better free infantry counter to flame rush than engineers.

[boxes]

Go for it. There's just a good chance you'll get killed fighting and do 0 damage instead of doing your repair job while going up toe to toe with flame tanks, assuming the flamers are smart enough to drive away from you or prioritize you first. Grenadiers in numbers that keep their distance tend to deal more damage over time.

[Terekhov]

Grenadiers in numbers that keep their distance tend to deal more damage over time.

Over enough time for 3 buildings to die.

However, specifically with flamers, I'm not convinced this is just an infantry balancing issue, and this is a tangent anyway.

Engineers shouldn't even be considered when you want to do something combat based.

And that's what a lot of people forget.

Okay, so logically lay out the reasons why they shouldn't be considered - at all - for combat, from a gameplay perspective.

P.S. Realism isn't a valid reason. This is Renegade X after all

[boxes]

..Balance? Engineers are free unlimited repairs and disarms. They are good for sneaking as they can disarm mines quicker than repair tools and instantly deal 50 permanent damage to buildings if not caught.

They are the utility and anti structure class. There is no reason why they should be able to instantly rape anything that gets close to them. You can still lay traps if you want to use remotes as an offensive weapon.

[Terekhov]

..Balance? Engineers are free unlimited repairs and disarms. They are good for sneaking as they can disarm mines quicker than repair tools and instantly deal 50 permanent damage to buildings if not caught.

They are the utility and anti structure class. There is no reason why they should be able to instantly rape anything that gets close to them. You can still lay traps if you want to use remotes as an offensive weapon.

Given the changes I proposed, what are the possible scenarios where they "instantly rape anything that gets close to them"?

You're making assertions but I don't think they have as much foundation as you imply. It sounds more like "I hate the idea of engis with remote C4" than "I think the proposed changes (spawn activation delay + removal of engi defense gib) would be detrimental to gameplay and here are the specific examples of how/why".

What are the actual scenarios, within the context of those changes being implemented, that would be harmful to game balance compared to the current game state?

[boxes]

Clearing out infantry rushes inside buildings within seconds, suicide bombing vehicles, wall hugging+c4-in-your-face to anybody running by, panic left-right click to deal monster damage before getting killed, being a mobile anti-tank mine, and some others unfun stuff I can't think of right now.

[RypeL]

I think it's pretty clear the inner damage radius of remote C4 should be reduced, no ? Then we could think about instant detonation again.

[djlaptop]

I think it's pretty clear the inner damage radius of remote C4 should be reduced, no ? Then we could think about instant detonation again.

I support this idea as long as the damage of whatever the c4 is stuck to is not reduced.

[RoundShades]

I think it's pretty clear the inner damage radius of remote C4 should be reduced, no ? Then we could think about instant detonation again.

I support this idea as long as the damage of whatever the c4 is stuck to is not reduced.

I was thinking grenadier range for the higher part, and anything outside grenadier range gets literally 30 damage.

Slightly better than giving it just grenadier range, and anything outside range gets literally fucking nothing. At least it tickles the better part of a mass of enemies when used on a mass.

[Terekhov]

I think it's pretty clear the inner damage radius of remote C4 should be reduced, no ? Then we could think about instant detonation again.

I support this idea as long as the damage of whatever the c4 is stuck to is not reduced.

+1

[Mystic~]

Clearing out infantry rushes inside buildings within seconds, suicide bombing vehicles, wall hugging+c4-in-your-face to anybody running by, panic left-right click to deal monster damage before getting killed, being a mobile anti-tank mine, and some others unfun stuff I can't think of right now.

This is precisely why I also suggested something needed to be done about engineers.

[Lostalot]

If we're going to tweak engineers then lets do it right, leave them as they are and add an extra feature:

Hold right-click and left click to attach C4 to yourself! [short attachment animation]

If it's remote C4 you can Right-click to instantly detonate (killing yourself in the process).

If it's timed C4 it goes boom after 30 seconds killing you or detonating where you dropped it.

Engineers can now go back to rushing tanks and blowing up troops at will and Nod gets their suicide bomber (and get to share the fun with the GDI).

[Redline]

I do like the idea of engineers just going full suicide.

For balance maybe when they initiate self destruct mode there is like a 3 second warning or display indicator that the engineer is gonna go boom. Perhaps they move a little slower too when they do this.