Pre-4.03 Balance Mutators! [Updated]

[RoundShades]

The Totem Arts devs, Community devs, and any and all community feedback, is maintaining the game currently via mutators, to tweak balance and gameplay for more consistently fun games with nothing "bullshit", as well as testing a few balance ideas out. This is until the next patch, which the Totem Arts devs are currently working on, with added gusto and second wind.

Links About Mutators:

-->>PrePatchBalanceMod, Modified by Yosh from dev RypeL's original version: Balance Mutator Download

-->>Infinite Ammo Mod, A Very Short Efficient Mutator Created by Yosh: Infinite Ammo Mutator Download

-->>How to Create and Install Mutators to RenX Game and Servers, a Guide by RypeL: Link to Guide

-->>How to Decompile a .U Mutator File into .UC components for Educational Purpose: Link to Guide!

This is the Changelog of the version modified by Yosh:

- Upgraded AntiPosition Exploit prevention (since Swahhh found more ways to exploit so that the previous anti exploit isent enough anymore)

- Fixed an issue with the Rocketlauncher locking that made it very CPU intenive

- Player Acceleration is back to how it was in B3

- Added a server setting in which server owners can change the time between airdrops (Set to 10mins)

- Raised infantry damage/kill credits/points earned by 50%

- Have a dead refinery give 1 credit tick every 2 seconds

- Decrease points/credits for damaging structures by 25% and decrease points/credits for repairing structures by 43.75%

- Have the silo give 1 credit tick every 2 seconds

- Orca/Apache health reduction from 400 to 375

- Added Infantry Splash Self Damage for all infantry weapons

- Made it harder to get and hold a lock with the Rocketlauncher

- Flakcannon secondary now consumes 2 ammo

- EditByYosh: Shotgun now does tighter spread and shorter range for consistent damage.

- AddedByYosh: Gunner now does more damage to heavy armor and structures and less to infantry.

- AddedByYosh: Officer Chaingun now does Autorifle Damage, is still hitscan, and has slightly higher spread, with high and in fact increased RoF.

- AddedByYosh: 500 Snipers now do 60 damage with 2.5x headshot multiplier, and given ROF and ClipSize, to balance between Ramjet and Marksman. Offers high damage across the map and down tunnels, but a 1k upgrade is required for instant lethality now.

Please leave feedback and discussions below. We are also still not entirely done, Sidearms for instance are to be changed next. We are interested in any community feedback, as well as servers interested in using it as a standard until it is implemented in the next full build release for RenX.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Guest

[salarite]

Currently it is hardly noticeable (we are talking about a 6,25% change). Maybe I need repairs a bit more frequently, but that's it.

I would like to mention though that Apache/Orca feels stronger now, simply because noone is using rocket officers anymore.

[HaTe]

Currently it is hardly noticeable (we are talking about a 6,25% change). Maybe I need repairs a bit more frequently, but that's it.

I would like to mention though that Apache/Orca feels stronger now, simply because noone is using rocket officers anymore.

Ramjets are stronger against them though. People just need to realize that still.

[RoundShades]

Currently it is hardly noticeable (we are talking about a 6,25% change). Maybe I need repairs a bit more frequently, but that's it.

I would like to mention though that Apache/Orca feels stronger now, simply because noone is using rocket officers anymore.

Ramjets are stronger against them though. People just need to realize that still.

I thought it was noticeable too. They could nerf the health another 25, but that would overall buff the rocket soldier, the single highest output of damage to air. The way they did it was literally mathematical, where rocket soldier still takes same shots to take down aircraft but more against tanks, and every other weapon now takes less against aircraft.

Also, at least rocket soldiers aren't sniping across walls

[Handepsilon]

Someone Screenshot an Orca that has 400/375 health. In third person, it became 106%

[RoundShades]

Someone Screenshot an Orca that has 400/375 health. In third person, it became 106%

Likely a discreptency of interpetation between clientside thinking its 200-200 and server insisting its 200-375. That 6% really matters though.

Also, Credits do a similar thing. Credit gain, the client insists its per second, but the mutator changes dead ref and silos to 2 second. So, if you look ingame when your ref is dead, the credits go 192-193-192-193...194-193-194... 195-194-195...

Generally, both are mundane bugs. Doesn't confuse or kill anyone.

[Handepsilon]

according to RypeL (he was in-game) that was just a visual bug. When you get damaged, the UI went back to normal

[RoundShades]

according to RypeL (he was in-game) that was just a visual bug. When you get damaged, the UI went back to normal

Discreptency of Interpretation = visual bug

It is a visual bug, caused by discreptency of interpretation. The client calculates health based off what it thinks 100% is, the server gives health based off what it thinks 100% is, when the client gets an update from the server, it is what the client thinks is 106%. Really, it's the same amount, but its 106% of what the client is expecting max health to be.

Also note again, the chaingun and sidearms weren't included in the balancing. There are more plans for updates, but mutators and gradual steps help sharpen the last patch, until the next patch. The credits and airdrop timer were big changes though, and from just recorded playthroughs, it appears to be effective even if it isn't noticeable while playing, it becomes noticably different than a game filled with vehicles after an airstrip/wf kill or with a dead ref.

[salarite]

Someone Screenshot an Orca that has 400/375 health.

That happens everytime you buy an Orca/Apache. And Rypel is right, it's just a visual thing, there is no "plus life" at the start.

[Axesor]

It is hardly noticeable. I don't know if the explosive ammunition was hurting even the shooter before changes...?

Where I can find full changelist and whats the other plans? It would be very nice if we could see it.

And this is only server mutator or game wide patch what came from devs? Becouse I dunno if changes was applied on both servers (tmx, ekt).

Btw I like this balance changes. Waiting for unlimited ammo change for infantry now!!!!!!!

[RoundShades]

It is hardly noticeable. I don't know if the explosive ammunition was hurting even the shooter before changes...?

Where I can find full changelist and whats the other plans? It would be very nice if we could see it.

And this is only server mutator or game wide patch what came from devs? Becouse I dunno if changes was applied on both servers (tmx, ekt).

Btw I like this balance changes. Waiting for unlimited ammo change for infantry now!!!!!!!

It is a mutator. Servers have to apply it for it to be there. Many servers lack it currently, EkT and TMX have it. If St0rm doesn't have it for instance, I honestly would like them to, despite anyone's feelings of them personally.

This is the mutator:

http://www.renegade-x.com/downloads/Pre ... nceMod.zip

The changelist is at least on EkT forums. Since it is the only place I know where to find them, I will copy/paste here wholesale. I don't feel bad for it, it is technically this forum owner's mutator (Totem Arts made the mutator officially as a balance test and a way to make the game better to play until next patch, and afaik it is way vetted beyond test and is in full effect now)

Changelist:

- Added a server setting in which server owners can change the time between airdrops (Set to 10mins)

- Raised infantry damage/kill credits/points earned by 50%

- Have a dead refinery give 1 credit tick every 2 seconds

- Decrease points/credits for damaging structures by 25% and decrease points/credits for repairing structures by 43.75%

- Have the silo give 1 credit tick every 2 seconds

- Orca/Apache health reduction from 400 to 375

- Added Infantry Splash Self Damage for all infantry weapons

- Made it harder to get and hold a lock with the Rocketlauncher

- Fixed an issue with the Rocketlauncher locking that made it very CPU intenive

- Upgraded AntiPosition Exploit prevention (since Swahhh found more ways to exploit so that the previous anti exploit isent enough anymore)

- EditByYosh: Shotgun now does tighter spread and shorter range for consistent damage.

- Flakcannon secondary now consumes 2 ammo

-AddedByYosh: Gunner now does more damage to heavy armor and structures and less to infantry.

- Player Acceleration is back to how it was in B3

It didn't have officer headshot and base damage reduction, or sidearm price increase and possibly headshot damage reduction. But these, and those, and possibly a few more tweaks where needed, are planned balance changes. That is why I asked without disclosing, if anyone noticed gameplay changes and what they liked out of them. It appears people like splash damage infantry, and airdrop time increase. Not as many people notice mcfarland, but a few less complained about him sort of. People didn't entirely notice player acceleration, but maybe they were used to it already. A lot of people notice rocket launchers and helis, but not everyone even notice rocket launcher as it's fixes were mainly mild and less-cheese. The credits and the airdrops I think helped games the most really.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Guest

[salarite]

The changelist is at least on EkT forums. Since it is the only place I know where to find them, I will copy/paste here wholesale.

Here is the TmX one: http://www.thematrixren.net/index.php?/topic/1315-pre-beta-403-mutator-changelog/

With a good discussion, I must add.

[RoundShades]

...and whats the other plans?

Might as well reconfirm that the following were supported opinions of the community:

-officer: headshot and base damage nerf so far, wasn't implemented because other suggestions in mind

-sidearms: price increase. Possibly headshot damage nerf like officer. Waiting for conclusive.

-gunner: I think everyone wants him to at least have grenadier damage and somehow less effective against infantry. Still in early discussion.

-also discussing what could allow for games to naturally end in reasonable reliable times like 15-45 minutes. This is more of a question and not an answer right now. The thought is, more people would play RenX if a match naturally ended in 45 minutes, no time limit and no turn off base defenses bullshit, and can't be something to turn away oldschool players. Still discussing if it would make more people play and less people move on, and if it's possible without changing the game into something old players no longer recognize.

Update: The spreadier shotgun change seems to be "better", but it is in discussion to just tighten it really hardcore and just reduce the range, so it's damage is less randomly high even at longrange.

Update: We are also discussing gunner too. looks likely he will need an extra rocket to kill infantry but gain an extra rocket a clip against heavy armor and structures. His light armor was left alone. These were tested basically to give him 40 seconds mct kill but turn down his tunnel dominance.

Thank Yosh for calculating, creating, and having group tested, the shotgun and gunner, to save development time and make good numbers for them.

[RoundShades]

The Totem Arts devs, Community devs, and any and all community feedback, is maintaining the game currently via mutators, to tweak balance and gameplay for more consistently fun games with nothing "bullshit", as well as testing a few balance ideas out. This is until the next patch, which the Totem Arts devs are currently working on, with added gusto and second wind.

Links About Mutators:

-->>PrePatchBalanceMod, Modified by Yosh from dev RypeL's original version: Balance Mutator Download

-->>Infinite Ammo Mod, A Very Short Efficient Mutator Created by Yosh: Infinite Ammo Mutator Download

-->>How to Create and Install Mutators to RenX Game and Servers, a Guide by RypeL: Link to Guide

-->>How to Decompile a .U Mutator File into .UC components for Educational Purpose: Link to Guide!

This is the Changelog of the version modified by Yosh:

- Upgraded AntiPosition exploit prevention

- Fixed an issue with the Rocketlauncher locking that made it very CPU intenive

- Player Acceleration is back to how it was in B3

- Added a server setting in which server owners can change the time between airdrops (Set to 10mins)

- Raised infantry damage/kill credits/points earned by 50%

- Have a dead refinery give 1 credit tick every 2 seconds

- Decrease points/credits for damaging structures by 25% and decrease points/credits for repairing structures by 43.75%

- Have the silo give 1 credit tick every 2 seconds

- Orca/Apache health reduction from 400 to 375

- Added Infantry Splash Self Damage for all infantry weapons

- Made it harder to get and hold a lock with the Rocketlauncher

- Flakcannon secondary now consumes 2 ammo

- EditByYosh: Shotgun now does tighter spread and shorter range for consistent damage.

- AddedByYosh: Gunner now does more damage to heavy armor and structures and less to infantry.

- AddedByYosh: Officer Chaingun now does Autorifle Damage, is still hitscan, and has slightly higher spread, with high and in fact increased RoF.

- AddedByYosh: 500 Snipers now do 75 damage with 2x headshot multiplier. Offers high damage across the map and down tunnels, but a 1k upgrade is required for instant lethality now.

Please leave feedback and discussions below. We are also still not entirely done, Sidearms for instance are to be changed next. We are interested in any community feedback, as well as servers interested in using it as a standard until it is implemented in the next full build release for RenX.

[RypeL]

Thx for summing it up Bro. And thx to Yosh for helping out on the mutator side. We now have some kind of community driven evolution of the game going on and that is big. And the devteam has nothing against that. It really gets some pressure from our backs and we really want to empower the players to make evolutions to the game themselves. For that reason we will try to get even more tutorials up in the future. For instance check out the new vehicle tutorial Havoc89 just recently posted. Also i hope to find some time to write up an in depth tutorial about making code mutators for ren x.

So through the mutators most of these changes should currently be running in EKT and TMX atleast. A patch with the listed changes and more might follow next weekend.

[sterps]

I like the sound of the balance changes so far. They're more baby step changes, which is what this mod needs at the moment.

[RoundShades]

I think we should press for just a few more changes to get tested in a server, hopefully just in time to slide them into any upcoming patches whenever they may be.

We all still seemed sure sidearms could use a mix of less damage and more cost, maybe adjustments to clipsize.

We all also seemed sure Stealth Tanks could use damage closer to old Renegade, where it could at least kill a med tank given 2 free shots (if caught by surprise, that would entirely be possible, and GDI got a gunner buff recently so I can see this being fair) EDIT: And adjust their accuracy ofc, dunno why i didn't say that.

In light of the time we have, I hope we can agree and get these in a mutator quickly, so it can be played a bit by lets say Wednesday, and can become accepted changes.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Guest

[sterps]

Sidearms definitely need to be changed in some way. It's too OP having a technician or hotwire with those guns when they're supposed to be support/demolitions

As for stanks, they need a buff, but i think their damage is fine, they do quite a lot of damage as it is. It's just landing the shots which hurt it at the moment

Slightly buff their speed, improve the accuracy and adjust the muzzle on the stank so when it fires the missiles don't splay out wildly. This will improve their range slightly and also improve their accuracy.

With accuracy improved more of it's missiles will hit your target

[Ap2000]

Since we're on the topic of stanks, does anybody feel their stealthing is actually of any use in RenX?

I don't know about you guys, but I never buy stanks.

[RoundShades]

Since we're on the topic of stanks, does anybody feel their stealthing is actually of any use in RenX?

I don't know about you guys, but I never buy stanks.

...Are you kidding?

Right now, their stealth isn't used like old Ren, because of their damage. They don't wreck a building before it's noticed. A lot of maps also offer plenty of intellegence that a stank rush is incoming despite not seeing them.

If they had more damage, they would destroy more in encounters and in invasion of a base. Making their unpredictability as useful as old renegade.

Also, even right now, their stealth is used to run over infantry and destroy retreating tanks. That alone is a utility.

Also, if a map like "city flying" was released, there would be a lot more threat to the variance of direction they can come in at. Complex already is an amazing map for getting stanks by despite a total siege by GDI. This map is GDI favored, and Nod would gain a lot of balance in this map with better stanks. Under is GDI favored usually, Nod would also gain a bit from stanks here if they can sneak them on top of the hill and let GDI run the typical siege tactic before rushing their base.

[Ap2000]

Since we're on the topic of stanks, does anybody feel their stealthing is actually of any use in RenX?

I don't know about you guys, but I never buy stanks.

...Are you kidding?

Right now, their stealth isn't used like old Ren, because of their damage. They don't wreck a building before it's noticed. A lot of maps also offer plenty of intellegence that a stank rush is incoming despite not seeing them.

If they had more damage, they would destroy more in encounters and in invasion of a base. Making their unpredictability as useful as old renegade.

I'm not sure why you are asking me if I'm joking, because those things are exactly the reasons why I'm not buying any stanks.

[RoundShades]

I'm not sure why you are asking me if I'm joking, because those things are exactly the reasons why I'm not buying any stanks.

...Have you ever been ran over by a stank? Particularly on XMountain?

If you claim not to, you are in the minority. A lot of people can honestly attest to this.

I don't know if you noticed the other Stank Balance Thread, but I suggested a damage of 56x2, up from 45x2. And with the math, it compares much better against med tanks (64x1 with twice the health). I also suggested angling the muzzles of the missiles, the bottom one up 7 degrees or so, and the top one down 10 degrees or so, so their missiles hit together more often, not the terrain, not any rocks...

[Ap2000]

I'm not sure why you are asking me if I'm joking, because those things are exactly the reasons why I'm not buying any stanks.

Have you ever been ran over by a stank?

Sure, but that doesn't happen to often, let alone get killed by it.

It's certainly not an efficient way to spend all that money for an stank when all you do with it is roll over a few grunts.

[Axesor]

Artillery does 4% dmg to the buildings. WHO THE FUCK DID THIS &*@#*??? Is it becouse of this mutator?! Nod is unplayable now. 10 artillery's couldnt destroy 1 building and then came GDI tank cavalery and it was over.

Generaly Nod has worse tanks. Its difficult to repair em becouse you cant hide behind them (tine light tank, useless stank, flamer must move quickly forward). GDI is able to push, they hide in safety behind big tanks, repairing each other. Many ppl in Nod dont even bother to buy tanks and its bad becouse Nod always have to have more tanks than GDI to overwhelm em.

I am always thinking the way-good team vs good team and in such situations Nod has no chance. And now I noticed this bullshit with artillery.

I just came from the game and I am so pissed off again. Artillery damage MUST be changed back to 8-9% to the buildings!!!

[XD_ERROR_XD]

If you want to re-balance stealth tanks to something more like C&C Renegade (which i think it does need): buff it's guns some, buff it's speed a tiny bit but nerf it's invisibility a lot. I kid you not if stealth tanks could be seen from 30 meters on foot, and 20+ meters on vehicles depending on which one you drove.

Now i don't think this should be exactly the same in Renegade X. Nerf it's invisibilty, but 'only' by another 30-50%, instead of more than 100+% compared to C&C Renegade.

The Stealth Tanks' homing missiles did not always lock on target in C&C Renegade, but this was mostly a TT Scripts issue regarding the game's netcode and the mix of client/serverside hitdetection. Each missile was capable of dealing a steady 45 damage, enabling it to deal a maximum of 90 damage per shot per 1.6 or 1.67 seconds (once again, the client/serverside hitdetection screwed this up to only deal an odd number worth of damage when trying to home onto it's targets).

Think about this when trying to balance the stealth tank. I don't think it should be as easy to spot in the original game, because it's no longer justified by tighter corridors and more infantry running loose, but this does need to be nerfed.

[RoundShades]

Artillery does 4% dmg to the buildings. WHO THE FUCK DID THIS &*@#*??? Is it becouse of this mutator?!

The link to the mutator, are files written in plain english. No artillery change involved. I was under the impression artillery shots were always strong, thus rationalizing MRLS having an 11% damage per salvo. Y'know?

If you want to re-balance stealth tanks to something more like C&C Renegade (which i think it does need): buff it's guns some, buff it's speed a tiny bit but nerf it's invisibility a lot. I kid you not if stealth tanks could be seen from 30 meters on foot, and 20+ meters on vehicles depending on which one you drove.

I can currently see them plenty fine enough now if I look for them, with enough time to react to dodge it from squishing me. But, not enough to avoid it in time if it gets me dead on from the front or back and I am not actively looking. I think that is near-perfect, like the kind of perfect you must try 20 different numbers before you find it. I wouldn't risk messing with that.

[SFJake]

So snipers are 75 body shot damage and 2x headshot? Doesn't that mean only 150?

While I'm perfectly fine with that (because I hate snipers in Renegade X), the Ramjet is still at 180 and instant-kills anything with a headshot.

Plus, since this game balances snipers poorly in the first place, 500 snipers are now even worse to counter havocs.

Which in turn still means Havocs can just one-hit kill everyone, everywhere, at anytime, which is what makes the infantry play in this game so boring.

You know what, the game could use a "helmet" kind of side-item you can buy that protects you from 1 sniper headshot. Its actually in part why I quit. I can't take the snipers in this game, nothing counters them besides snipers and they make an infantry-guy like me pretty much useless in the field unless you pick a sniper and counter them.

So I'm at least glad some snipers nerf are being tested...

[RoundShades]

Ramjet snipers aren't 1 hit kills on bodyshots anymore. Deadeye essentially did 80% of what ramjets did, with lethal headshots and only 50 less bodyshot damage but still 2 bodyshot killed the same infantry as the ramjet.

The point wasn't to nerf snipers, but balance the cost difference between 500 and 1k snipers.

But while you bring that point up, I wouldn't entirely mind if either deadeye did 80 damage and 2.5 headshot multiplier, so he could at least 1 hit kill free infantry but not purchase infantry...

...or if the ramjet did 120 damage and had a 2x headshot multiplier. That would seem like we would be at square one, but actually the ramjet has plenty of bonuses to the 500 with 120 damage compared to 80, because 160 cannot 1 hit free infantry and 240 can, and 240 cannot 1 hit paid for infantry but has significantly less health to finish than 160.

Adjust both their vehicle modifiers to get the same dps from light armor and ramjet heavy armor, and presto.

[yosh56]

So snipers are 75 body shot damage and 2x headshot? Doesn't that mean only 150?

While I'm perfectly fine with that (because I hate snipers in Renegade X), the Ramjet is still at 180 and instant-kills anything with a headshot.

Plus, since this game balances snipers poorly in the first place, 500 snipers are now even worse to counter havocs.

Which in turn still means Havocs can just one-hit kill everyone, everywhere, at anytime, which is what makes the infantry play in this game so boring.

You know what, the game could use a "helmet" kind of side-item you can buy that protects you from 1 sniper headshot. Its actually in part why I quit. I can't take the snipers in this game, nothing counters them besides snipers and they make an infantry-guy like me pretty much useless in the field unless you pick a sniper and counter them.

So I'm at least glad some snipers nerf are being tested...

Most of the idea behind it is that it really felt like there was no point to the Ramjet when the 500 could basically do the same job. The game has 2 and a half sniper rifles, and the Ramjet always just sort of felt out of place. Putting the 500 between the Marksman and the Ramjet just made the game feel more progressive tier-wise. The Ramjet has something actually unique to it now, 1 shot head-shots, and the 500 is still effective, but for half the price it doesn't really deserve the ability to one-hit-KO. It still deserves to be 'better' at killing low-tier infantry though, with its effectiveness falling off as tier rises.

Honestly, I think the game runs a lot smoother without snipers, but people want their damn snipers. I use them occasionally, and honestly they do feel way out of place being one-hit-kill. Half the people that can REALLY aim shouldn't have anything to worry about if it took more than one shot to kill.

Artillery does 4% dmg to the buildings. WHO THE FUCK DID THIS &*@#*??? Is it becouse of this mutator?! Nod is unplayable now. 10 artillery's couldnt destroy 1 building and then came GDI tank cavalery and it!

Go home, you're drunk. Artillery has always done 4.4% vs? buildings. It's already got the 2nd highest damage-over-time vs. buildings in the game, right behind the Mammoth.

----

P.S I definitely need to give out the updated version of this mutator. It gives Gunner exactly 1 rocket more worth of damage vs. heavy to make up for needing to smack infantry in the face. It also brings 500 damage down to 60 but keeps the headshot damage the same. At 75 body damage, it's usually just easier to body shot people to death.

[Ap2000]

Honestly, I think the game runs a lot smoother without snipers, but people want their damn snipers. I use them occasionally, and honestly they do feel way out of place being one-hit-kill. Half the people that can REALLY aim shouldn't have anything to worry about if it took more than one shot to kill.

I'd give my left nut for a server that has the 500/1000 credits sniper classes deactivated.

[RoundShades]

Honestly, I think the game runs a lot smoother without snipers, but people want their damn snipers. I use them occasionally, and honestly they do feel way out of place being one-hit-kill. Half the people that can REALLY aim shouldn't have anything to worry about if it took more than one shot to kill.

I'd give my left nut for a server that has the 500/1000 credits sniper classes deactivated.

Make a mutator. They are honestly not that hard. I don't think you can prevent the UI for them, but you can make then not take credits and not give the class.

But think about it. How many servers had snipers disabled in old Ren? Plenty had 800 cost sbh. Plenty disabled a lot of things. Some servers were Sniper Only. I can't name one that increased cost or removed snipers. Despite how OP they were and how UP everything else ingame was.

[Ap2000]

Make a mutator. They are honestly not that hard.

What good would that be since I don't have a server running? lol

[TheOlsenTwins]

I'd give my left nut for a server that has the 500/1000 credits sniper classes deactivated.

A server like that would be really awesome!

[Henk]

I'd give my left nut for a server that has the 500/1000 credits sniper classes deactivated.

A server like that would be really awesome!

QFT, I agree.

[RoundShades]

Make a mutator. They are honestly not that hard.

What good would that be since I don't have a server running? lol

Petition TMX/EKT, or start your own like Constructive Tyranny?

I don't see anyone using it or it getting big, because this is RenX. You say snipers don't belong in RenX, but others say RenX cannot lack snipers. Otherwise, we are just playing X, since we got rid of a 40% class choice from Ren.

A nerf to match the lack of huge lethality that automatic rifle classes have, is important, that was why Ren was so sniper-engi only. However, because repairmen hiding behind tanks are still the central meta, snipers cannot simply not exist. Nod can get close to engineers with sbh which people also want to get rid of. But GDI cannot, one cannot simply walk up to a group of tanks and try to shoot the engineers, decimated by tankshells before you even get in range of an engineer...

I wouldn't mind seeing decreased lethality of the 1k sniper as well. 500 has 2x headshot multiplier (Yosh said he is making 2.5x if lowering body damage to 60), so should Ramjet have less headshot damage so higher infantry can survive? Or can headshots in general get a smaller hitbox so it doesn't feel like everything is a headshot? Perhaps the devs can set it to "bone collision-check" if they don't already?

[HaTe]

Keep snipers how they were but make hip-fire have a random spread like CoD, so that scoping is the only effective way of using one :>

[RoundShades]

Keep snipers how they were but make hip-fire have a random spread like CoD, so that scoping is the only effective way of using one :>

...You really weren't around for beta3 were you.

This was another one of those loud beta3 arguements. It is less arcadey, but I COULD see there being a difference in "scoped" damage tbh. Like if 500 snipers did 50 damage hip 60 scoped, and 1k snipers doing 100 damage hip and 150 scoped. Even then, they have to do vehicle damage equal and I don't see the need in a usage nerf anyway.

1k is a lot to pay for "lethal snipers" so the nerf is already substancial enough, i'd leave it be. I played some games recently that do convince me 500 is too cheap for near-equally the most effective class in the game, and that 1k is a lot of cash to pay constantly in the new improved RenX pre-4.03. Between those 2, "economy" balances the sniper enough.

In comparison, sometimes I wonder if pic/rail should be 800 and volt should be 900...

[boxes]

For the 500 I was thinking that a hip-fire shot would do x1.5 headshot damage, and a scoped would do x2 headshot damage. (100 base damage)

[HaTe]

I was being sarcastic, hence the ":>"

I'm someone who enjoys sniping and sees the role that they play in the game. I don't see an issue with them

[DoctorB0NG]

I'd give my left nut for a server that has the 500/1000 credits sniper classes deactivated.

A server like that would be really awesome!

This can be arranged. I'll get it running in the ConstructiveTyranny server.

[Axesor]

A nerf to match the lack of huge lethality that automatic rifle classes have, is important, that was why Ren was so sniper-engi only. However, because repairmen hiding behind tanks are still the central meta, snipers cannot simply not exist. Nod can get close to engineers with sbh which people also want to get rid of. But GDI cannot, one cannot simply walk up to a group of tanks and try to shoot the engineers, decimated by tankshells before you even get in range of an engineer...

Well, I dont see problem with this. GDI engi's can well cover in safety behind massive tanks. GDI tanks also deals bigger damage and has bigger explosion radius and more health.+many many anti tank, aoe infantry.

Nod has hard times. As I wrote before... small tanks+low hp+must move fast+ small explosion radius, lower damage. Its very hard to repair in middle of fight, cant cover due to GDI big explosion radius and Nod small tanks. It's almost impossible to survive as engineer. Oh yes + snipers are hunting you down.

Nod tanks simply has no chance againts GDI tank's push, as you could notice when there is playing good team againts good team. Nod almost never wins.

If there was no snipers in this game, it would be much more balanced and generaly much more enjoyable to play.

GDI would kill engineers with power of their tanks and Nod with SBHs.

[Ap2000]

I wonder what the statistics are, if GDI or Nod has more snipers on average.

You say snipers don't belong in RenX, [..]

I didn't.

You are interpreting too much, again.

I said "a server" and not "the next patch has to force snipers deactivated". I am very well aware that not having snipers is something only a part of the active community would be interested in.

[yosh56]

I'd give my left nut for a server that has the 500/1000 credits sniper classes deactivated.

A server like that would be really awesome!

This can be arranged. I'll get it running in the ConstructiveTyranny server.

Disabling them is exceptionally easy. Getting them off of the PT menu would be harder, but not impossible from what I've seen. Could pretty easily have them greyed out

[RoundShades]

Oh turning their price up to 100000. Didn't think of that, clever. Good idea Yosh!

[AirNomad]

I 100% whole heartedly disagree with the very last one on this list. This is why this games community will plummet because of all of the drastic changes just to "balance" the game and keep babies happy. If thats the case, then lets have have no characters to choose from at all. Now that will keep it balanced. For example; Just because somebody has the accuracy to get a head shot with 500 sniper, that shouldn't be an issue whatsoever. If you can land the shot, good for you. Thats the way it should be. Why nerf it? Because its obtainable? Because with practice anybody could become proficient at it? Then my as well nerf a Mammy because its just too damn strong against a buggy. Seriously, when beta 4 was released, we all experienced the new changes. Some great, and some very bad. They were pushing it when they added airdrops and continuous credits after Airstrip and Ref were destroyed. It took away a portion of the strategy needed in order to be victorious. You HAVE to agree with that. But you know what? I finally got used to it and deemed it as not that bad, but still prefer the old way. But now a nerf on 500 sniper? for some reason i feel that this change is being implemented to appease the whiners and the 'not so good' players. If thats the case, if you hate getting sniped, find your own way to avoid it. If this keeps up on this path, Renegade X will be nothing more than a stale, worn out game that people will get bored with due to the lack of strategy. Theres always going to be an upper hand, you cant change it all. Well i guess you can, but that is a game i will not want to see. PLease dont turn a beloved game to so many people in to a trainwreck. Please dont attack me for what I'm saying, but give it thought. I know i am NOT the only one.

[RoundShades]

Eh, the 500 change was because the 500 kills in same number of shots as 1000 sniper: 1.

The ramjet however, was nerfed because they kill free infantry full health from toe shots.

Really, both were overused in original ren near exclusively as the only viable anti infantry.

And besides not wanting two identical snipers, its way too lethal for 500 credits. Credits arent as abundant as once before, liminting lethality to an unsustainably high cost, and making 500 decent against them (double headshot lethality at least), then you balance Snipers down with the mortal classes of Autofire rifle classes.

Oh, and i think that is a good alternative to removing them like some want. But if servers want to try it, that's their perogative.

[Axesor]

I don't need think about it. If you wanna snipe, take marksman. This character perfectly fits to role of sniper in this game. SNIPER 500c just dont. This makes game so boring and stale-becouse infantry can't freely move on battleground. And it's mainly pain for Nod becouse engis can't well cover behind that small tanks.

Then my as well nerf a Mammy because its just too damn strong against a buggy.

I like turtles.

No, rly? You couldn't think of a better metaphor? buggy costs 300, mammy 1500-thats all my answer.

Sniper costs 500 and you can 1hit kill everyone. Whatever he is good, it's just not fair for other classes. It needs bigger time to kill. As I said-marksman is perfect at sniping, or use railgun with limited range.

[HaTe]

I 100% whole heartedly disagree with the very last one on this list. This is why this games community will plummet because of all of the drastic changes just to "balance" the game and keep babies happy. If thats the case, then lets have have no characters to choose from at all. Now that will keep it balanced. For example; Just because somebody has the accuracy to get a head shot with 500 sniper, that shouldn't be an issue whatsoever. If you can land the shot, good for you. Thats the way it should be. Why nerf it? Because its obtainable? Because with practice anybody could become proficient at it? Then my as well nerf a Mammy because its just too damn strong against a buggy. Seriously, when beta 4 was released, we all experienced the new changes. Some great, and some very bad. They were pushing it when they added airdrops and continuous credits after Airstrip and Ref were destroyed. It took away a portion of the strategy needed in order to be victorious. You HAVE to agree with that. But you know what? I finally got used to it and deemed it as not that bad, but still prefer the old way. But now a nerf on 500 sniper? for some reason i feel that this change is being implemented to appease the whiners and the 'not so good' players. If thats the case, if you hate getting sniped, find your own way to avoid it. If this keeps up on this path, Renegade X will be nothing more than a stale, worn out game that people will get bored with due to the lack of strategy. Theres always going to be an upper hand, you cant change it all. Well i guess you can, but that is a game i will not want to see. PLease dont turn a beloved game to so many people in to a trainwreck. Please dont attack me for what I'm saying, but give it thought. I know i am NOT the only one.

This.

The game is more than just strategy and tactics. It's execution. Certain units can only excel in the hands of players capable enough to execute them properly. The sniper is the perfect example. A sniper in the wrong hands is a waste of a player and a waste of 500 or 1000 credits. If you claim it's OP, tell me how. Explain to me. Because you cannot use them effectively and others cannot neither? So now we are neglecting the skilled players for "balance" purposes? That's an awful excuse.

I can understand a nerf to the 500 sniper to make him more relatively balanced to the ramjet. But anything more is way overkill and just going to hurt more than help. If you're trying to appeal to the people who claim "sniper ruins this game," tell them that they aren't playing the game right (sorry that running in straight lines in a shooter has its consequences?), rather than adjusting the game to simplify it for them.

Snipers in Renegade were undoubtedly OP. Snipers in Renegade X are not. The only thing that COULD be adjusted that would make sense is to have the guns actually fire from the gun model rather than having it adjusted by the camera (head glitching and FOV advantages), but that can be said about all guns.

[Ap2000]

I 100% whole heartedly disagree with the very last one on this list. This is why this games community will plummet because of all of the drastic changes just to "balance" the game and keep babies happy.

Babies? It takes barely any skill to be an efficient sniper.

Sit in the back and use your histcan insta-gib weapon to kill dudes that can only win by running away.

I'm very happy with the changes in 4.02. The game was borderline unplayable before if the enemy team had a dozen snipers.

[HaTe]

I 100% whole heartedly disagree with the very last one on this list. This is why this games community will plummet because of all of the drastic changes just to "balance" the game and keep babies happy.

Babies? It takes barely any skill to be an efficient sniper.

Sit in the back and use your histcan insta-gib weapon to kill dudes that can only win by running away.

I'm very happy with the changes in 4.02. The game was borderline unplayable before if the enemy team had a dozen snipers.

How very naive of you. Sniping takes a lot of skill, and for you to not realize that is either ignorance or negligence, and I'm not entirely sure we want the game "balanced" towards either of those.