My BAD experience with The Matrixren.NET

[Xtractor]

Yesterday on mountain on that server ,Id layed some mines (mb 6 mines in a w pattern) on Bar path where we always do ,to prevent SBH from coming in our base .And no where else ,What was my surprise to had been kicked for that purpose because of 'shit mines' been told by Jean claude van dam.

Do we have to mines perfectly lined mines or otherwise we will be kicked? What About New players how will they react to some decision like that ..Very good for a Game we try push population .

Are you gonna kicked anyone that doesn't do like you do !!??.

Next Time I will Think tweice Before joining That Server

[Ryz]

Hello Cudaker,

I am not a mod on TmX, but I've posted the link of this post in our shoutbox so someone can contact you and sort out what happened. I suggest you post a complaint on our server forum next time. I am sure they will give you an good explanation, or an excuse...

What I can't make up based on your post is if you were votekicked or kicked by a mod.

I am not here to defend what happened. But I know that almost every time I played we had one or more people wasting mines everywhere ALL game. This lead to a lot of unnecessary losses or way to easy wins on the other side. This might be why other people are (over)reacting a bit. As far as I know you did nothing wrong. Another problem is that most new players do not react on anything you send them so they just do whatever they are doing. That doesn't justify what happened, but I am writing it down so you know what might have caused this behavior.

I hope you will get a reply soon and I also hope to see you back on TmX one day!

[GodRider]

Completely agree. Especially newcomers that don't know how things works and getting kicked is not really community friendly, I'd say.

[DoctorB0NG]

It looks like you were vote-kicked. I'm assuming you were kicked because you were mining the infantry path which is usually frowned upon on our server as we don't have an inflated mine limit.

This is why this game needs mini tutorial videos on how to do basic stuff like mine. Mining the infantry path is not really a viable way to stop SBH (or anyone for that matter). SBH are far more likely to enter in the front as the infantry path is incredibly linear and compact.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Guest

[salarite]

I see your name is "xtractor", I guess you are talking about yesterday's Xmountain match on the Matrix AOW server.

I'm a moderator there, and I was ingame yesterday. As I told you ingame chat, we moderators did NOTHING, you were votekicked by the other PLAYERS.

The guy who started the vote (I think it was Davidbeast) said you were overmining. So it was probably not about the shape of the mines, but rather placing a lot of mines at not-the-door positions.

With a 45 mine limit, on a map like XMountain you need like 37-40 mines to cover the doors. Is it not possible you placed more than 6 mines? I don't know, I wasn't inbase at the time.

About Jean-Claude Van Damme: he is NOT a moderator on the TmX server; when he said 'shit mines', he expressed his personal opinion, just like any other player.

[SFJake]

Honestly, a mechanic I'd adopt in pub servers would be pre-decided mines placement. You see, mines are one of the most important thing in the game.

A single person decides to place mines instead of me, it sucks. They place it kind of randomly in the door and people can just walk around most but 1 or 2.

A single person decides to place mines instead of me, and I get no direct warning when people go through those mines, making my job harder.

A single person decides to place mines outside of the useful zones, and entire buildings might be forced to be vulnerable because there's not enough mines around.

I'd rather see the role streamlined in game for pub servers rather than keep seeing the mining process ruined and entire games ruined because a single person is mining wrong.

Which is the whole problem with the role. It doesn't matter if SOMEONE does it right, whenever someone does it wrong, it ruins everything.

[Xtractor]

Bar Path wasn't mined at all so I decided to layed some there (6 max) and I didn't layed at no other place was my only place ..If someone don't like something and start a Voted kicked just saying its shit mining and ppl don't eeven know what where when and kicked player like that its fkng lame .. I don't vote on Kicking player because I have to know all the reason.

someone just want to kick someone else for no real reason and start a vote kick and some will just say YES not knowing why ,Its lame very lame

[JeepRubi]

Think about the bigger picture guys. Instead of being hostile towards players mining incorrectly, why not try and educate them? In the long run, what's is it that is really ruining the game more? Incorrectly placed mines, that might change the outcome of a single match, or driving away new players, and having empty servers?

[Xtractor]

take Wall: Personnaly I see often GDI base off sbh whent entrance and tunnel are mined ,But some don't like it so I don't do it but its the best result imo . So many mining preferences out there ,I just hate mining becoz of it .

some want a straight line other in w shape other around the door on the wall building ..ect

[DoctorB0NG]

Think about the bigger picture guys. Instead of being hostile towards players mining incorrectly, why not try and educate them? In the long run, what's is it that is really ruining the game more? Incorrectly placed mines, that might change the outcome of a single match, or driving away new players, and having empty servers?

I think one of the biggest issues is that there's NO tutorial whatsoever with this game. New people hop in and have no idea what they're doing and start mining the front, tunnels, etc.

The Ren X website needs some materials on it to educate people and hell the game itself needs some sort of tutorial section where McFart runs a player around and teaches them stuff.

[Ryz]

It doesn't matter if SOMEONE does it right, whenever someone does it wrong, it ruins everything.

Quote of the year, I've had so many rounds where I was mining the entire game only to restart the mining again after I finished the last building and returned to the first. Now we discover who did the overmining, but this usually means leaving the base and thus leaving it vulnerable.

[Xtractor]

Instead of kicking a newbies for REAL improper mining , if the mod could just via console ,flushed all xplayers mines and sending a friendly auto reminder how to mines and link to the preference mining server (YT tutorial or text)could be a good start

[Ryz]

Think about the bigger picture guys. Instead of being hostile towards players mining incorrectly, why not try and educate them? In the long run, what's is it that is really ruining the game more? Incorrectly placed mines, that might change the outcome of a single match, or driving away new players, and having empty servers?

I agree, but...

A few days ago I played with a guy called IP Zombie (he is here for a few weeks or maybe longer now). He always overmines, but never reacts on any message. If you want me to I can keep a log, but I've had over 50 'matches' where someone was overmining and it always goes the same.

Usually I start with a PM in lowercase. If it doesn't lead to a reaction I try this a few more times. Than I switch to CAPS, fuhter on I put the message in teamchat and try this 4 or 5 times. After these attempts (at least 10 in spread of a few minutes) I try it in general chat. Sometimes I even walk over to the person to start jumping in front of him / her. Usually, with most new players, all these attempts do not lead to ANY reaction whatsoever. And I am not talking about one experience, but dozens with a total of hundreds of messages.

I would love to educate people. I even remember we had one guy who didn't understand sh*t of the game. Nod allowed us to blow the obelisk and we just scouted every building and explained him, 2 Nod players and 2 GDI players all together. I was a quite time at the server, it was fun, and it was useful.

But how can we communicate with the vast majority off the new players who cannot and do not want to communicate at all, nor know the games basics, nor speak English. I know I've mentioned this before, but maybe it should be only possible to join a certain server if you can answer a few random questions like: what is MCT? or what is the mine limit? Right now, and I also mentioned this before, I see a lot off experienced players leaving the game cause they can't stand the fact that way to many rounds are just impossible to player proper cause off the non communicating players..

[DoctorB0NG]

Instead of kicking a newbies for REAL improper mining , if the mod could just via console ,flushed all xplayers mines and sending a friendly auto reminder how to mines and link to the preference mining server (YT tutorial or text)could be a good start

This is 100% the way to take care of it. The only problem is that RCON is currently bugged and doing a disarm command disarms ALL mines on BOTH teams...

[salarite]

I think one of the biggest issues is that there's NO tutorial whatsoever with this game. New people hop in and have no idea what they're doing and start mining the front, tunnels, etc.

The Ren X website needs some materials on it to educate people and hell the game itself needs some sort of tutorial section where McFart runs a player around and teaches them stuff.

100% this. I remember myself a year ago in Beta 2 when I first joined, happily mining entrance, not understading why are people shouting with me. Then some said look, there is a mine limit on the mid bottom of the screen. Look, old mines disappear as you place new, etc.

As Ryz also said, we players (and mods) cannot educate new players almost every single game. There should be a tutorial for mining, which everyone sees who installs the game.

[DoctorB0NG]

Honestly the more I think about the more ridiculous it is that a tutorial hasn't been a higher priority thing for this game.

The learning curve for this game is steep and the community can be rather unforgiving.

[Ryz]

As Ryz also said, we players (and mods) cannot educate new players almost every single game. There should be a tutorial for mining, which everyone sees who installs the game.

Maybe we can, but the main problems is most of them are not reading or willing to read. And I am not sure how to counter this. At least 1/3, but sometimes 2/3 of the gamers does not communicate. I can join a game and almost certainly predict who is gonna win based on the names I see and the amount of teamchat.. Sometimes a rush is prepare for 10 minutes and announced, but still the rush 'surprises' the defending team cause... they didn't read. And in these case I've also sent like 20 or 30 messages at least.

People call me a whiner cause I focus on communication, but in the end it's starting to kill the game more and more... And that point is seems to be reached now, cause the skilled players seem to abandon the game quicker than new ones can replace them. Not to mention: if they want to learn, there is no one left to teach them If we continue like this...

[LavaDr4gon]

So should the first part of the tutorial be Take an English class?

[RypeL]

It doesent seem to me that anybody in the team is cut out for or willing to do a comprehensive but not too long tutorial. We would happily integrate a community made toturial. There is Yosh his guide. Wich is nice and all but its just too f*king big. No newbie would read it. But it could be the basis for a shorter tutorial.

[DoctorB0NG]

We need some ingame tutorial. YouTube videos are good supplementary material but there needs to be something built in.

[RypeL]

Then pls do one and send us the link. I dont see a tutorial comming out of this dev team. There was talks about a tutorial level though as that could be something interesting and fun to do for a mapper. But that is a lot of work obviously so i wouldnt count on that ever happening. Any comprehensive documentation is hard work and not fun. And when you bring it out you just get critcized for it as always when you release something. The "devs" already are in the spotlight too much. And if everyone is just waiting on the devs to do something that is really toxic and just burns the devs. We should have communicated earlier that we need help on making a tutorial.

Seriously: I hope for someone like Yosh to make a comprehensive but shorter tutorial and then we could integrate it clearly marking it as "tutorial by XY" so that they get their deserved credit for it.

[Ryz]

But what would it take to make a short video? I think, if we can get some people, we can fix this. Just a few examples:

You see: mines here... *pfoef* mines there gone... SBH walks in, building gone. I think we need a short script and 5 till 8 people to make this work. I think we can look into this with a few TmX ppl.

[Truxa]

Walls mining: tunnel and main entrance only, best result? nuh uh!

2 transports with techs and 1 SBH WILL render all of your mines useless, hence the doors should be mined!

Furthermore, on ALL maps without base defenses, mines should ALWAYS be placed in chokepoints and/or doorways to counter infiltrations. Priority for the building doors, THEN chokepoints, minelimit permitting ofcourse.

Usually, a 3-SBH tag-team is needed to bring down a building succesfully. 2 might be possible when you time the MCT shooting right (5 seconds prior of C4 explosions) but thats a bit more iffy than 3 Timed C4s placed within a max 2 seconds between 1st and last C4.

3 SBHs however, can EASILY take out 6 mines at any single doorway. E.g. Walls:

Ref has 2 doors, powerplant has 2 doors, barracks has 2 doors(NOTE: access doors via roof-ramps!), WF has 2 doors, totalling 8 doors. 8x6=48 mines needed to protect them all. But what about the roof ramps? You get the point right?

ALL the mines are needed to counter the most stealthy way of disabling a buidling: 3x SBH-C4 rush.

Now, some people argue to place 4 mines per entrance, stacked on top of eachother in such a way that 1 SBH has to sacrifice himself in order for the other 3 to enter (requires a 4-SBH tagteam for the original tactic) here is where your "W" spread of t he mines come in as "shit mining". SBHs can still get around your mines, maybe detonating 1 or 2, but no SBH dies and opens up the entire base!

Now, the mining thing is nothing new, it has always been thé most complex thing to learn and to teach.

As I understand, Devs balanced it so that any map needs only 30 mines, because the idea is, mines are an early warning system.

Mines should be placed only in those area's where there is the least trafic. E.g. Walls:

Mine the pp and ref doors heavily, but leave the bar and WF unmined. Guard those buildings with soldiers/designated defenders only and perhaps just 1 mine per door, so when 1 detonates, it alerts the designated defenders to scramble for the place where they detonated.

Look where it's going? TEAMWORK!

there is a reason for the Skirmish matches, you can edit the % attackers and % defenders. You NEVER leave the base entirely by itself, you always leave a few designated defenders behind.

Now Cudaker, I was not present at your party (pun intended) at a vote-kick seems to me a bit too overboard, I agree. But you have to agree that when people see mining issues 1 time too much, they might do things they normally wouldnt.

Oh, TmX has a lower minelimit than EKT servers do. Depending on the maps, TmX has between 25 and 50 mines while EKT has between 45 and 80 I believe.

EKT allows a bit more iffy mining but meh, thats no solution either

On the tutorial part:

Ren-X should havea FORCED TUTORIAL map the first time you try to play online. Similar to what planetside 2 had up to a few months ago.

You had to walk through a trial or tutorial of sorts, to get acquainted with certain weaponry. Took only 15 minutes in total if you payed attention to everything.

The tips messages could be enlarged a bit more, to be a bit more profound.

[Xtractor]

Tutorials is ok but every servers owers have their own preferences on ways of mining so there is this other dilemma

[RokumanZA]

This is true but please don't take this vote kick as us as server mods kicking you for incorrectly mining. This was the players action and not initiated by TmX. It's our policy to help were we can and you would have got at least a few warnings to remove your mines before a kick if we fealt you were hampering the team with off placement.

This is just the result of too many players fed up with losing buildings to overminers. At the same time I see the point RypeL made and I think we should step up and get a video ingane at least for now. Sure it won't fix the problem, but if even 25% of people watch the vid and learn the mining basics, thats 25% less irritation and problems ingame, which is probably worth the bit of effort to make the video.

Please don't take the kick personally Cudtaker, it was out of our control and you are welcome back.

[Boomer]

Think about the bigger picture guys. Instead of being hostile towards players mining incorrectly, why not try and educate them? In the long run, what's is it that is really ruining the game more? Incorrectly placed mines, that might change the outcome of a single match, or driving away new players, and having empty servers?

I think one of the biggest issues is that there's NO tutorial whatsoever with this game. New people hop in and have no idea what they're doing and start mining the front, tunnels, etc.

The Ren X website needs some materials on it to educate people and hell the game itself needs some sort of tutorial section where McFart runs a player around and teaches them stuff.

In classic Renegade the tutorial is run by Logan who just lose his job since Havoc comes to the team.

So should the first part of the tutorial be Take an English class?

Also in classic Renegade the game including the tutorial is localized in many languages even including Chinese and Korean. Back to the old days there are many good players and servers from China and Korea. Also you can type in Chinese and Korean, which is not supported by current version of Renegade X.

[HaTe]

Whoever makes the tutorial video (I wouldn't be against giving it a go), should keep it mind that it needs to remain subjective. No personal opinions should be treated as fact, such as "don't mine the entrance." The positives and the negatives need to be highlighted.

[JeepRubi]

The thing is, a lot of players won't view/read a tutorial no matter how simple it is. I put together the one-page overview screen that is currently being used for the loading screen, and was originally on the installer, and the pause menu. A lot of players didn't pause the game to read it. Many new players have their hands full just trying to get their heads around c&c mode in general. No matter how good of a tutorial we provide, we can't guarantee that new players will read it, but should that mean they don't deserve to play the game? Of course not. Bottom line, is that you can't expect everyone who plays on a public server to be aware of the ins and outs of a game, or even speak the same language as you.

That being said, we definitely could offer a lot more information to new players. As Rypel said, if there were a good community made tutorial, we'd be behind that completely.

Maybe it would be possible for us to modify the mechanics of the mine limit somewhat to help alleviate this problem? Maybe instead of the first mines to be placed being the first to dissapear, ones that are placed in groups larger than a certain number, or furthest from the base disappear first?

It could also be possible to display a warning message of sorts on-screen to a player if their placing mines is removing old mines. I'm sure that alone would be a great way to educate a lot of people, as well as remind others who know, but may not be paying attention.

[Xtractor]

My mining wasn't incorrect nor overmining and I got kicked for it ..Why? A Player Start a vote that people respond to yes to it . I understand that when we see a Vote kick we ASSUME it's true (not me I don't respond to vote kick If i didn't really see it) ..I think Who ever Start a vote should receive a Warning That its untrue and just trolling , could get Kicked himselft.

I was a bit brainstorming about mining preference for different taste of server owners :

What if prefab location superior mining was made .. let me explain:

A server owner wants doors been mined in a restrictive aera .

A player that layed mines in tha radius will get Bonus credits for every mines well placed if he do that for X mines he received an

Congratz Expert mining Shout out .

If He layed mined in non designated aera , he lost credits accordindly + warning why .

So Server owner just clic their prefer aeras or zone in the server confg,

Hope you understand what im trying to explain

[LavaDr4gon]

I recently played a game on xmountain where the team and I mined the GDI base with 5 mines per door. We had 40 mines out of the possible 45 so those extra mines could be used for anything else. You said you use only 6 mines so you should've not been kicked for "over mining." Someone else might have overmined and someone saw you mining at the infantry entrance making the assumption that you were the overminer.

Players know the problem with overmining and therefor we want them kicked. However in your case, you were not the overminer and someone else was, maybe.

Since there are limited mines where mines have to be used properly to be at maximum efficiency, experienced players would choose designated areas to be proper mining zones. If there are no mines within the said zone, mines will be placed there. If mines are in undesignated zones, they want them removed or disarmed so they can be placed in the designated areas. Of course, proper mining itself isn't enough. Someone has to watch the mines on the minelimit to see if it drops, which leads to another problem.

If someone places mines in a pointless area and are detonated, players will see the mines drop and create a panic within the team of where the mines went off. If mines are placed somewhere without the team knowing, half of the team will be wasting their time looking for mines.

I need confirmation on this but it might help me some. So when a player starts to overmine, does it just remove the mines that you placed, or the first mines that were placed?

[HaTe]

I'll see about possibly making a video at some point that highlights the main objectives and things like mining. I will write a script for it first though, and would need someone to record them saying it. Don't have a mic right now and I'm sick either way.

I'll get started on the script sometime this week, and let anyone at it who wants to give reading it a go. The video will be designed around the voice. I'm no professional video editor, but I know how to make them look and feel nice, and I'd rather trust myself to do it than to put that trust into someone who maybe just doesn't understand the game as well as they think they do.

[RoundShades]

I recently played a game on xmountain where the team and I mined the GDI base with 5 mines per door. We had 40 mines out of the possible 45 so those extra mines could be used for anything else. You said you use only 6 mines so you should've not been kicked for "over mining." Someone else might have overmined and someone saw you mining at the infantry entrance making the assumption that you were the overminer.

Players know the problem with overmining and therefor we want them kicked. However in your case, you were not the overminer and someone else was, maybe.

Since there are limited mines where mines have to be used properly to be at maximum efficiency, experienced players would choose designated areas to be proper mining zones. If there are no mines within the said zone, mines will be placed there. If mines are in undesignated zones, they want them removed or disarmed so they can be placed in the designated areas. Of course, proper mining itself isn't enough. Someone has to watch the mines on the minelimit to see if it drops, which leads to another problem.

If someone places mines in a pointless area and are detonated, players will see the mines drop and create a panic within the team of where the mines went off. If mines are placed somewhere without the team knowing, half of the team will be wasting their time looking for mines.

I need confirmation on this but it might help me some. So when a player starts to overmine, does it just remove the mines that you placed, or the first mines that were placed?

First mines.

Also, I have a video, where I was called an overminer and wasn't kicked but we lost a (different) building. All I did was mine the barracks sandbag opening instead of both doors, wasn't a flying map, but apparently there is a rock you can use to jump the sandbags (bad map design? no offense kenz...). Overall, I think whoever else WAS mining, would have been better off accepting that and defending the 2 structures that ARE lost early in xmountain: the ref and PP, which are 25 seconds walking distance away from the WF and base entrance, which is REALLY GROSSLY too far away, also bad map design, bring the WF and Bar closer back at that rate.

That video, I think it is poor map design that allegedly you can hop the barbed wire sandbags in front of the barracks on a non-flying map (xmountain).

Besides that, it shows we need an idea to make "mining" more "noob friendly" (or shut the f*** up about how bad mining ruins the game and git gud, this isn't 5 Nights at Fuckboys here)

[boxes]

There should be a system where Admins are able to send big, bold, obvious text across a certain player's screen to send warnings of team hampering or inappropriate behavior. I think people who are unresponsive didn't read the chat box, as it's easily neglected during gameplay.

Suggestions to prevent overmining:

Make frag grenades the default loadout for Techs/Hotties instead of mines.

Optimize the mine counter->Make it more noticeable (bold, larger/different text, different color, etc)

Add an in-game warning when mine limit is full and you currently are holding mines.

~

Flashing mine counter when someone is overmining (and when mines decrease).

Repair gun: Right-click disarms team mines, left-click repairs them. Disarming should be 3x faster than repairing.

[Gerbil Tube]

I dont know if anyone has pitched this idea yet but I think it might help with the mining situation. What if both teams had roles that players could choose from on spawn or the beginning of the match. An example would be the defender role. If a player chose this role it would be their responsibility to defend the base and the whole team would see that. Additionally the defender role could also be responsible for placing mines, if you didn't choose the defender role you cannot place mines or maybe get a personal mine limit of 4. This would allow skilled players to choose the defending role and know that their mines will not be removed by players who dont want to defend. I can see some flaws with this system but I think it could help.

[Xtractor]

I dont think kicking a guy for an overmining mines is acceptable nor RenX has the luxury to do this

[RoundShades]

I dont think kicking a guy for an overmining mines is acceptable nor RenX has the luxury to do this

It's not. It don't. But from the way it sounds, you got troll'd by someone who probably makes fake polls to kick random people. It isn't your fault, or the server's fault, it was an automated poll created by a low-tier common casual that probably doesn't play anymore anyway.

I'd have mined the same place. That bridge is worth at least 5 mines.

[salarite]

Allright! There are a ton of posts in this topic so far, I gathered the relevant ones to make a short summary:

1)xtractor's issue, which started the topic: mostly solved, it was a votekick by other players, most likely unjustified.

2)It became clear that "the issue of overmining" is an important topic/problem, it has been voiced by several people here.

IDEAS/POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:

I)Short tutorial

- Rypel[Dev]: a quality tutorial made by the community is the one they are looking for, f.e. by Yosh, DoctorB0ng, HaTe, etc.

- JeepRubi[Dev]: confirms this, but raises concern if most people would watch it or not.

- xtractor: the tutorial must adress the mine limit differeces /i.e.: not the same on low minelimit servers (TmX AOW) and high minelimit servers (EKT Marathon)/

II)Change to mine mechanics

- JeepRubi[Dev]: not 1st one placed disappear, but ones which are: furthest from the base/are in large groups.

III)Updated warnings:

- JeepRubi[Dev]: warning message to miners, that old mines are disappearing!

- CampinJeff: -> yes, add in-game warning when mine limit is full/flashing when overmining

-> make mine counter more noticable

-> mods should be able to send "big, bold, obvious text" to a player's screen of overmining behaviour

-> ability to disarm teammines, not just own (if possible 3x times faster)

- sidenote: with the next update, server moderators will be able to properly disable all mines placed by a person, which will help

[Truxa]

IDEAS/POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:

I)Short tutorial

- Rypel[Dev]: a quality tutorial made by the community is the one they are looking for, f.e. by Yosh, DoctorB0ng, HaTe, etc.

- JeepRubi[Dev]: confirms this, but raises concern if most people would watch it or not.

- xtractor: the tutorial must adress the mine limit differeces /i.e.: not the same on low minelimit servers (TmX AOW) and high minelimit servers (EKT Marathon)/

II)Change to mine mechanics

- JeepRubi[Dev]: not 1st one placed disappear, but ones which are: furthest from the base/are in large groups.

III)Updated warnings:

- JeepRubi[Dev]: warning message to miners, that old mines are disappearing!

- CampinJeff: -> yes, add in-game warning when mine limit is full/flashing when overmining

-> make mine counter more noticable

-> mods should be able to send "big, bold, obvious text" to a player's screen of overmining behaviour

-> ability to disarm teammines, not just own (if possible 3x times faster)

- sidenote: with the next update, server moderators will be able to properly disable all mines placed by a person, which will help

I started a tutorial:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=75067

The video is 12m40s long about mining on Walls Flying and WHY

It doesnt adress all the issues, but it's a start. The video linked in my post is not public, so only those who click the link will see it. Reason for it: I can be wrong! So making an error public will result in a worse situation than there is now. I tried to contact Goku just 10 minutes before recording, he's on TS but not responding.

[Xtractor]

Allright! There are a ton of posts in this topic so far, I gathered the relevant ones to make a short summary:

1)xtractor's issue, which started the topic: mostly solved, it was a votekick by other players, most likely unjustified.

2)It became clear that "the issue of overmining" is an important topic/problem, it has been voiced by several people here.

IDEAS/POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:

I)Short tutorial

- Rypel[Dev]: a quality tutorial made by the community is the one they are looking for, f.e. by Yosh, DoctorB0ng, HaTe, etc.

- JeepRubi[Dev]: confirms this, but raises concern if most people would watch it or not.

- xtractor: the tutorial must adress the mine limit differeces /i.e.: not the same on low minelimit servers (TmX AOW) and high minelimit servers (EKT Marathon)/

II)Change to mine mechanics

- JeepRubi[Dev]: not 1st one placed disappear, but ones which are: furthest from the base/are in large groups.

III)Updated warnings:

- JeepRubi[Dev]: warning message to miners, that old mines are disappearing!

- CampinJeff: -> yes, add in-game warning when mine limit is full/flashing when overmining

-> make mine counter more noticable

-> mods should be able to send "big, bold, obvious text" to a player's screen of overmining behaviour

-> ability to disarm teammines, not just own (if possible 3x times faster)

- sidenote: with the next update, server moderators will be able to properly disable all mines placed by a person, which will help

nice recap thanks

but I would like that the idea in my post there

http://renegade-x.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=75062&start=15#p147840

to be Brainstorming more by the community .

Because it would teach and reward players that mined correctly ingame as they do it without any need of tutorials and whats a cool ways to become a master miners, gain credits/or reputation xp ,I think players will aim to layed mines properly

[[JTeK] Josh]

I don't recall having this problem with the original. Perhaps the overmining notification is the reason? You can't have the LoL community mentality with 50-60 active players. People need a chance to learn the game before being publicly outted.

Start playing clan matches if you really want to have full control over where other people are mining.

[Ryz]

Maybe it's a good idea to change the topic title to something more constructive?

Also:

I do not agree that everyone should be allowed to play the game. Or to say it more clear: I do agree to it under certain circumstances. If you want to be part of something you should at least have the basic skills. Can't understand perfect English? No problem. Can't understand anything? What are you doing in this game? If you don't understand anything and can't learn to understand it...

If you visit a bar / pub you are more than welcome to have a drink, but if you don't understand the rules you will be tossed out or asked to leave. Now players sometimes votekick someone cause they are tired off things going on. Not that these kicks are the right decision, but...

I can't put it in the right words. But in my opinion you are more than welcome everywhere as long as you have basic idea where you are and what you are doing / what the rules are. Too much asked? Go play the Skirmish (they won't know the difference cause they cannot interact with other players anyway).

Or make some special noob servers where you can learn the game till you have an x amount off points. Than these points will allow you to join the 'real' servers. If you are a skilled player you will get these points in less than a few hours. If you aren't you will never notice that is a) a noob server b) there is teamplay / chat c) that you can kill games by stupid actions so thus you will be fine there...

[RoundShades]

On top of that, it makes no sense for mines to fit inside each other, literally placed within themselves.

In legacy, one mine could attach to another and sit on top or side by side. They would float in air if the bottom one disappeared.

In this current one, if they don't do the same thing or fall on impact via gravity and land wherever but not fit inside because of collision, they should definitely do something else. They should NOT be clippable where you can place a mine inside of a mine.

Gameplay wise, that is because people "exploit" it with the good ol' fashion "death dot" technique, where you make a deadly number of items look like a harmless 1 of an item, when it can be 4 or 35. It is ambiguous, obscure, even misleading to vet Ren players, not WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get, meaning visually identifyable by a new player), and could use rebalanced anyway so it can't be made underpowered in this change.

[HaTe]

The way stacking works is a bug in itself in two ways, really. For one, it obviously shouldn't realistically happen, as mentioned above. For two, you take less damage because of the collision with the mines hitting each other. As much as it appears to be blowing simultaneously, they are actively looking for an enemy unit in their range on a frame rate basis (something like every 25 ms in Renegade). So they're literally colliding with each other before they explode, which is causing less damage to be dealt.

You'll also notice that you take less damage if 2 mines are even barely touching each other than you do if 2 mines are completely separate from one another. They shouldn't be checking collision paths with themselves.

[RoundShades]

They should have collision with entities like that. I mean they stop bullets.

In an ideal world, they should not stick to walls, they should act like discs, they should throw and if they collide with wall or another mine they should simply fall down to the ground and/or bounce lightly perhaps. That would kill 4 birds with 1 stone. Magic stone fixes that offer no problems should be obviously taken into action.

[Mystic~]

This is going back a bit, but I called a vote-kick because your mining was hampering the team and you ignored several warning messages and PMs from me about not over-mining / disarming the ones you'd already placed at the path.

It was nothing personal, please don't let it sour your experience as its a great server/game - you were just on the receiving end of my impatience as it's a common problem that often ruins so many games. The team wasn't obligated to vote yes, and I do try to be mindful of new players.

I don't have any quarrels about placement patterns (with the exception of floating mines), if they had gone down first I would likely not have reacted. However in this instance your additional mines were causing previously placed mines to disappear.

When that happens and the player isn't prepared to quickly rectify things then the team must re-mine the whole base. At the beginning of Beta4 it was possible to disarm and correct other team members mines, this is no longer the case for reasons I don't know.

Maybe some good will come out of your thread if it results in some sort of tutorial.

[GLR Lynx]

Thank you. Now I understand why players were upset with me yesterday on that server with my mining style (which I used alot in the Original. It was natural to me, as it was effective and worth. Here, it isn't. I see that now. Hell, I used the same technique back in Renegade X 0.5).

Will change my style then.

[tongclub62]

Thanks for sharing.

[Goku]

I know i should be all mature about this subject but Seriously thou dude. Their server their rules.

If you want to take it up with their staff can visit their forums http://www.thematrixren.net or speak to their staff on IRC -> http://chat.mibbit.com/?channel=%23TmX&server=irc.elitekamikazeteam.com

Skeeze/MrSunshine are the top dogs if you want to take it that far.

Regards Goks