damage against infantries

[Bangjigu]

Not uncommon to use 50 bullets just to score 1 kill (extremely inefficient as an anti-infantry unit). While tanks with that crazy AOE damage can do the job with 3 shots. I understand that soldier is a free class but is this going too far? Infantries have very little survivability against tanks on open battlefield & tanks should be designed more as anti-armor instead of mowing down infantries. Just some thoughts.

[HaTe]

I think the exact opposite honestly. Killing with infantry is too easy and killing with vehicles is harder than in the original.

[yosh56]

Infantry aren't made to go head-to-head with tanks, but if you just use the terrain to your advantage you completely own the hell out of them.

Infantry vs. Infantry, I don't think it's too difficult to kill, but the rifle soldier is free, and at mid-range and below they're actually really good if you can predict and aim.

The moment you even pay 150c, you basically destroy any other infantry unit with Farlands,Chem troopers and every other non-AT unit.

[Axesor]

I agree with you. Gunpay in this game is hell strange but old playes never admit it through their nostalgia. I gave up already on this. I am only playing in tanks, as engineers, SBHs and Rocket soldiers (if no money).

There also should be some sort of heal or armor regeneration becouse everybody after taking any damage goes back to base to heal. If fight 1vs1 are such crazy and winner run away with 0% hp so there is no point to stay in battle field and keep fight.

Agresor

[Ap2000]

There also should be some sort of heal or armor regeneration

That is, by far, the single worst thing that could happen to any online shooter.

[cncforever]

I destroyed a Med Tank with a Techs Heavy Pistal while using the environment as cover but that was in Beta 3. I don't know if I could do the same in beta 4. It was pretty funny though, he didn't have any engineer backup of course.

[Blubb]

Quake 3 had health on spawn locations...just saying....maybe it would be nice to buy a healthpack as an item, especially if you have an expensive class chosen, maybe it's nice as an item you buy, and you have to switch to instead of a weapon , once you find a quick hiding spot and you can "regenerate gradually" through it. the percentage of health you get is of course substracted from the healthpack so that it wears down. ...just throwing that in there...

[Axesor]

There also should be some sort of heal or armor regeneration

That is, by far, the single worst thing that could happen to any online shooter.

I didnt get it. Why is this so wrong? After fight health would stay same but armor will regen to 100-it will give you some chance in next fight.

It keeps game dynamic and you will still need to go back to base to resupply ammo.

In my eyes, the worst thing what can happen is meet enemy on your way. You never win (in game where kills means nothing). Nobody wins.. next time you are dead or you can run long way back to your base.

Its bad, its always bad but nobody can explain me why. Becouse of CoD and Battlefield and many other succesful games and becouse of illuminati and Gabe Newell.

I also like your idea Blubb.

[RoundShades]

There also should be some sort of heal or armor regeneration

That is, by far, the single worst thing that could happen to any online shooter.

Having it as an item replacing c4 and requiring a beacon placement time to activate isn't too bad, one or two time use tops.

Having very very slow regen, 2 health every 3-4 seconds for veterancy for instance, is fine.

Don't make it too easy. Quake and old Ren servers had both those things.

[cncforever]

Health pack? armour regen? Hell NO. Yet again I see more handholding suggestions. There are random health crates already and thats enough. The lack of health packs or armour regen is why I think twice about what I do on the battlefield, especially as sbh. I have to make calculated decisions and weigh up my options, all of this would mean nothing if I could have health / armour regen.

Now a bit of increased health through a vetarin system or something might be a consideration but even that leaves me with doubts. You can already get engineers to heal you too.

[yosh56]

Or ya' know... people could get smart and notice that Hotwires/Techs also heal infantry. Seen some people (myself included) take notice of this, and it completely changes the feeling of playing infantry. So long as you don't get sniped in the face, you can just sit in heavy cover (which tanks can't do) and take off all their splash damage while you casually pick away at them.

Possibly awarding a few more points for healing infantry might make this more common. (Would just have to be coded not to award points for self-inflicted damage)

[Blubb]

Or ya' know... people could get smart and notice that Hotwires/Techs also heal infantry. Seen some people (myself included) take notice of this, and it completely changes the feeling of playing infantry. So long as you don't get sniped in the face, you can just sit in heavy cover (which tanks can't do) and take off all their splash damage while you casually pick away at them.

Possibly awarding a few more points for healing infantry might make this more common. (Would just have to be coded not to award points for self-inflicted damage)

depending on people in this game is absolutely stupid and frustrating, i don't see it as handholding either, just because we had limitations yesterday doesn't mean they are good. -.-# jaysus christ.

[RoundShades]

Health pack? armour regen? Hell NO. Yet again I see more handholding suggestions. There are random health crates already and thats enough. The lack of health packs or armour regen is why I think twice about what I do on the battlefield, especially as sbh. I have to make calculated decisions and weigh up my options, all of this would mean nothing if I could have health / armour regen.

Now a bit of increased health through a vetarin system or something might be a consideration but even that leaves me with doubts. You can already get engineers to heal you too.

Well go talk to old Ren servers on that one, THEY had the vet system give health regen. Which also carried over to tanks too.

[Henk]

I like the health pack idea. Health only, no armour, recover a maximum of X health. how full the health pack is can be displayed as ammo. It should take some time to heal though, about as slow as an engineer repair tool, maybe slower? You shouldn't be able to do it in the middle of a gunfight in my opinion.

[RokumanZA]

I still think the engie/tech fills these rolls fine. And as things stand at the moment they're pretty plentiful all over the place. I wouldn't be completely against it but I don't feel a health regen pack will help except maybe not having to run as far as base for a refill if there are no hotti/techs around. Which I don't think is a bad thing anyway tbh

[cncforever]

I still think the engie/tech fills these rolls fine. And as things stand at the moment they're pretty plentiful all over the place. I wouldn't be completely against it but I don't feel a health regen pack will help except maybe not having to run as far as base for a refill if there are no hotti/techs around. Which I don't think is a bad thing anyway tbh

Engineers potentially are even better after the update because it is easier to see who needs repair due to the big arrow or indication that stays up a while after the call for assistance is made. However, the first type of infantry I target are always engineers and I will even die taking as many out as possible.

I'm surprised at the number of times Ive seen infantry targetting tanks without specifically targetting the engineers repairing them.

[Axesor]

Whats point of the rest of characters then? They are useless in field. They cant heal, they have low ammo, low damage, they cant destroy buildings, disarm mines, they never get very far if they meet enemy on road. Suicide characters. They are good only for fighting between each other and jumping on mines. And cant repair tanks which are so important for leading battle.

Its stupid to counting on engi to heal you becouse nobody cares about you if you are useless.

Only tanks, engineers and rocket soldiers and SBH (raids)-this is the only characters which are useful in game. The rest is annoying meat for grinder.

[yosh56]

Whats point of the rest of characters then? They are useless in field. They cant heal, they have low ammo, low damage, they cant destroy buildings, disarm mines, they never get very far if they meet enemy on road. Suicide characters. They are good only for fighting between each other and jumping on mines. And cant repair tanks which are so important for leading battle.

Its stupid to counting on engi to heal you becouse nobody cares about you if you are useless.

Only tanks, engineers and rocket soldiers and SBH (raids)-this is the only characters which are useful in game. The rest is annoying meat for grinder.

You're aware a group of Mobius's or LCGs/Patches/Gunners with one Hotwire/Tech around and packing EMP grenades is far more of a threat than a bunch of Engineers with Carbines, right?

You've also never been victim of a Chem rush, or McFarland rush, or Mobi, Gunner or any of those >_>. Other infantry have a major purpose, just like Engineers have theirs. Half the reason we allowed EMP nades to disarm mines is to eliminate Engineers being the exclusive mine-disarm unit.

If sidearms REALLY got revised to what they should be, that'd only become even more true, as there are plenty of other infantry that can kill buildings AND defend themselves inside, and on the way there far better than any Engineer class could hope for.

They are good only for fighting between each other and jumping on mines. And cant repair tanks which are so important for leading battle.

I really just want to keep reiterating this: Mass infantry > Mass tanks, save for ammo concerns, but even those can be circumvented if people are just occasionally running back to refill. (Infantry give less points, are more agile, and can just sit places where vehicles can't hit them. I wrote more than enough pages on this, and proved it in practice on more than just one occasion.)

they never get very far if they meet enemy on road

That's an iffy statement. Sometimes you just have to be better. You can't get off with just luckily landing one or 2 shots with an automatic weapon in a game like this, Section 8, Unreal Tournament, etc; you have to learn it, be good, then be better than everyone you happen to be fighting. Trust me, most people you'll run into can't aim for crap, and if you have an LCG or Chaingun you can run through them fast enough to have only lost 10-20% of your health.

Only tanks, engineers and rocket soldiers and SBH (raids)-this is the only characters which are useful in game. The rest is annoying meat for grinder.

At least add PICs/Railguns and snipers to that list... sheesh; they hard-counter every unit you listed, sans SBH, which everyone else with an automatic weapon counters.

[Ap2000]

Its bad, its always bad but nobody can explain me why.

Then you don't want to see the fact that, undoubtly others have pointed out to you countless times, having auto-regenerating health destroys teamplay. It's happened in every single online game ever that has (introduced) it.

Whats point of the rest of characters then? They are useless in field. They cant heal, they have low ammo, low damage, they cant destroy buildings, disarm mines, they never get very far if they meet enemy on road. Suicide characters. They are good only for fighting between each other and jumping on mines. And cant repair tanks which are so important for leading battle.

Its stupid to counting on engi to heal you becouse nobody cares about you if you are useless.

Only tanks, engineers and rocket soldiers and SBH (raids)-this is the only characters which are useful in game. The rest is annoying meat for grinder.

I have no other way to put it, but it seems you just plain suck at this game. Or maybe teamplay in general.

There are more than enough games out there that don't need any dedication to your team to win a round, Renegade(X) isn't one of them and that's exactly why we love it so much.

Your way of thinking is precisely what killed off so many online games for me.

[Axesor]

Ohoho stop kidding me. This wont ruin teamplay at all! This would make it even better.

You still need team to push battlefront. Why there always should be engi in group? This is stupid single minded thinking. Why you just cant go in pair with any character who is close to you? Regeneration to 50% is for you so unacceptable thing so you better go back to base to refill exept of waiting for reinforcements to push forward? Men this is bullshit...dont even say this will ruin teamplay.

Maybe we just have a different imagine about what teamplay really is.

Ofc I was part of chem rushes on Volcano or Island map. But this kind of rushes are succesful only from beginning. I was many time part of Mendoza rushes on old Field map. And now in Beta4 I am calling for Rocket soldier rushes becouse this character is just awesome becouse he can do what he was created for! Running with repair gun behind tanks. Dont tell me I dont know what teamplay is!

Infantry rushes could be so much more effective if armor or HP would regen. I see you cant even emagine.

Well, dear Ap2000, maybe MAYBE the games what are you talking about just wasnt meant to be teamplay based. They just should raise yo ego, playing single, killing everyone from behind in one shot-thats why they are so popular maybe? Remove hp regen from this games and gameplay will stay same but less popular.

This game system has far away from CoD, arena shooting games, battlefield, UT, counterstrike etc. (Did you noticed mammy can slowly regen itself?). You even didnt tried to imagine what it could do in game. You're just like "CoD is sooo stupid. There is no teamplay. Regeneration is bad. Drugs are bad.". No! Heal regen wont hurt this game! This is total different game and you cant even compare this with other games! Cats and dogs.

Think about it.

Trust me, most people you'll run into can't aim for crap, and if you have an LCG or Chaingun you can run through them fast enough to have only lost 10-20% of your health.

Hell no. You cant couting with you are playing againts total noob or 7 years old kid. Sure it happens sometimes but its mostly luck. Mostly you are playing againt player same good as you and you are "winning" with 5% of yo health. Its no win. Its lose for you both. Punish for you were fighting. In game where kills doesnt mean anything. You cant hold possition, you have to return or die.

[Lt.Hargrove]

Bringing in a healer in a team class-based game is something to be expected. I personally like it the way it is - this forces players to protect their technician classes and raises coordination requirements. The only gripe I have are techs/hotties melting other infantry with carbines/flechettes as efficiently as dedicated combat classes. Many others have raised this issue and I think it's going to be adressed. Engineers have a lot of utility by design, but their intended weakness of being poorly armed is not really there ATM.

You also completely look over both tunnel CQC and support anti-vehicle classes. Mostly bad field classes like shotgunner, gunner, grenadier, LCG shine in close engagements and base defense. 2 Mobs/Mendozas can shred any tank in seconds, PIC/Railgun/Ramjet are unmatched in forcing retreats and punishing bad positioning/late retreats. Patch completely negates tech's repair rate, SBHs that arent nubcake solo nukers can harass sieging tanks enough to allow their team to break out by sniping repeairmen and c4ing artillery etc. Now, engineers do most of the necesarry works, but they aren't be-all and end-all. Future will highlight that further.

[Ap2000]

Did you noticed mammy can slowly regen itself?

Yeah, because that thing costs 1500 credits. It better be something special.

Health regen ist trash and will just make people camp until they are regened. And when people camp all the time, a shooter automatically gets worse.

I'm going to repeat myself and nothing you say will ever "convince" me of the opposite, it's by far the worst thing that could ever happen to Renegade (or nearly any other multiplayer shooter, for that matter).

[Axesor]

I still didnt get why is this so wrong. It wont break teamplay, it wont make game breaking campers. Btw there already are campers-with sniper rifles. Camping in RenX like in Counterstrike is pointles with this ridculous weapon damage.

Suggestion:

4s wait, 8s armor regen, 12s total. Your healts stays same so burning damage, tiberium poison, falling damage can still kill you if you got low hp. SBHs can be also seen if they have low hp.

Nobody even tried it, you didnt even tried it but its already wrong just becouse of other multiplayer shooters and becouse old renegeda blablabla. Rly? Once again: you cannot compare this game with any other, this is unique.

It wont make ppl camp becouse this game is not set like this and its not only matter of health non regeneration. I cant imagine camping in this game. Camper=easy target.

12s waiting? Well fuck me if its not worth of it and better is runnung long way back to base and lose everything you was fighting for.

[RoundShades]

However, the first type of infantry I target are always engineers and I will even die taking as many out as possible. I'm surprised at the number of times Ive seen infantry targetting tanks without specifically targetting the engineers repairing them.

I always target them out. I feel a vet system would do good to reward killing engineers within repair range of their team's vehicles or structures.

Whats point of the rest of characters then? They are useless in field. They cant heal, they have low ammo, low damage, they cant destroy buildings, disarm mines, they never get very far if they meet enemy on road. Suicide characters.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind dividing up the engineer roles. For instance:

>>Make c4 setups like engis and techs use, into purchaseable items. This way, any class could use them. Note, sbh would honestly not benefit too much from this, as it would contribute to the cost of failure each time they reach mines or get spotted. It would be more possible reward for costlier failures each time. Also consider making it part of the vet system. In case the sbh thing does be a thing, make at least the double timed c4 a purchaseable item to replace single timed, because sbh still couldn't 1 hit kill a structure with 2 timed.

>>Make mines into purchaseable item as well. That way, they aren't just linked to the overpopular class already. Also consider making it part of the vet system.

>>Make the weak repair gun a mid price secondary weapons. Also consider making it part of the vet system.

That way, you see engineers as they are the cheapest way to repair. You see engineers with seondaries as they are still potent, you see tech/hotwire because they have the single strongest repair gun in game, you see them with secondaries, and you see other classes more often and they become viable tank drivers and base defense and such, because they can carry a secondary repairgun or infiltration c4 albeit be more expensive an investment to do so as a 500 class may become a 850 class if the repair gun was 350 and would still be cheaper to get a hotwire with a simple pistol/machinepistol.

[Truxa]

...(Did you noticed mammy can slowly regen itself?)...

The mammy regens because it was intended to regen health.

In the RTS version of tiberian dawn, both the mammoth tank AND harvesters regenerate health up to 50% of their max health, when they drop below 50%. And only very slowly!

This was added in the original renegade aswell as in Ren X, not because they are so pricy, but because it was designed in the RTS game.

Trust me, most people you'll run into can't aim for crap, and if you have an LCG or Chaingun you can run through them fast enough to have only lost 10-20% of your health.

Hell no. You cant couting with you are playing againts total noob or 7 years old kid. Sure it happens sometimes but its mostly luck. Mostly you are playing againt player same good as you and you are "winning" with 5% of yo health. Its no win. Its lose for you both. Punish for you were fighting. In game where kills doesnt mean anything. You cant hold possition, you have to return or die.

Axesor has a point here though, even if you emerge victorious having 50% health, you'd be wise to return to the base with a T2/3 character (500+ Worth) or you'd want to be 1shot-killed anywhere on your body from PIC/Rail/Snipers. Or having a very hard time against tanks.

Since teamplay is so heavily advocated by us all, 50% health loss in a 1v1 situation is not a win by the victor but a loss for both. I would even dare to say (when credits are plenty) the one dieing won the most ground, because he only has to run back to the field while the one repairing runs back to base and back to the field again.

So, to stay on topic, regeneration for infantry is a no go! Regeneration by means of tech/hot/engi repair is the way the game is designed.

Regeneration in itself is a bad thing in my opinion, because I do agree, it ruins teamplay and enhances solo/commando play

[yosh56]

Regeneration is a bit too much of a 'given' attribute to really make sense here. You're not given much in Renegade without having to do something. The only exception to the rule really is the credit tick you get just from having a Refinery, and now the 1 credit tick that happens even though you're team lost it (but we won't get angry about that here).

Renegade >IS< however a game of rewards. You already get points for hitting things, the reward of higher economy for destroying the other team's Harvester. You take away a team's ability to buy things for destroying buildings. That list goes on.

That being said, I think we should just look back at the system that was proposed earlier on these boards about infantry dropping health/armour when killed. If you're good in a 1v1, you should be rewarded with a bit of compensation to health. It's not as though this would just be giving you health for running away (E.g getting sniped on the body then just go hide behind a rock for 10 seconds to heal), but rather compensating you on doing something useful, which is murdering that poor fellow so his ideals will never see the light of day again. This would add to infantry longevity during rushes and in tunnels, but without ever being able to overshadow Hotwire/Technician's ability to fully heal an individual. At least, if we make it tier-based it would help.

By tier-based, I was thinking along the lines of.

Free Infantry drop the 25hp recovery

Tier-1 drop the 50hp recovery item

Tier-2 Drop 100

Tier 3 infantry drop a 150 or 200... whatever's around in the resources.

Engineers/Hotwires/Techs could in turn only drop armour on death just for the sake of variety.

---

PRO vs. CON list:

PRO

+People can stop complaining that they have to rely on teammates in a team game...

+Allow assault infantry to be rewarded slightly more for doing their job

+Add some longevity to infantry field bouts without just GIVING it to away

+Isn't able to fully heal all of the time, meaning it doesn't make Hotwire/Technicians a novelty. In the field where there isn't much CQC with infantry, it still means Hotwires/Techs will need to be aware of infantry to heal around them.

+Snipers/ranged campers wouldn't partake in the benefit, encouraging more CQC

+The models for health pick-ups are already lying around from Black Dawn

CON

-Enemies could potentially pick up dropped health/armour

-SBHs walking around with Fletchette guns and Carbines would now be more annoying and able to heal after fights, though that's a different problem all together.

-People stealing your hard earned health and stuff, but that's a player issue.

----

Again, this was all proposed awhile ago, but we just all kind of forgot to keep pushing it.

[Henk]

Sounds like a cool idea

-Enemies could potentially pick up dropped health/armour

Maybe make it so that GDI can only pick up Nod's drops, and vice versa? And then maybe not even visible to the other team?

-SBHs walking around with Fletchette guns and Carbines would now be more annoying and able to heal after fights, though that's a different problem all together.

Make them flash a bit when they pick it up, just like they do when they recieve damage.