My thoughts on this game as a newer player.

[SirPanfried]

Hello guys, I just thought I'd make this post as a newer player and the way I see the balance of this game. I didn't play C&C renegade, however I think the core idea of the game and of Renegade X is definitely a good one. I love the weapon and vehicle variety, the overall design and surprisingly fast gameplay. But I still think there's a few balance kinks that need to be worked out. Where do I begin?

I don't really want to turn this into a "baww, engineer/hotwire/technician OP" kinda thread but anything important for the big picture of the game, the engineer/hotwire/technician does. And that's sort of a problem. Because they are the only ones who can do any of it. I don't play very much engineer and I think that as a result I end up somewhere in the middle to the bottom of the leaderboard, dependent on the overall playerbase that match. I'm even more hosed when Im going on the offensive and get blocked by mines. All I can really do is sit and stare at them and hope that some kind engineer who isn't with the vehicle convoys or defending will get rid of them for me. Mines seem to stagnate gameplay and further invalidate the other classes because they're blocked by mines which prevents them from doing part of their job. Like grenadiers/flamethrowers for example. As anti-structure classes they are stopped immediately from being remotely useful. Sure, they can attack vehicles, but as it should be you're automatically at a disadvantage. Shotgunners and Soldiers and really any other fighting class is stopped as well. Most of them just grab a vehicle if they can or just mope around their base and defend. But nobody really comes, save for the occasional cluster of SBHs/gunner rushes. Because there are mines everywhere. so than people who don't do any of that go play sniper and one-shot all the free/150 credit units. So if you want to do anything with infantry, let alone free classes and you're not an engineer class or sniper, have fun dying or otherwise running around being pretty pointless.

tl;dr infantry that isn't engie based need a little more love and current game in shellnut: GDI turtlefest to prevent SBH beacon spam Nod breaks defense with apaches/flametanks/gets beacons down anyways NoD wins again GG no re.

I want to like this game. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong. My aim is pretty good and I try to move with groups and don't blind rush into stuff. I'm not trying to pass this stuff off as fact. It's just the my impressions as a new player.

[SFJake]

Mines are a key part of the game that prevents buildings for falling too easily and serves as warning for when the base is infiltrated.

I don't see any problems here.

A single solo player doesn't really deserve to be able to just get in the base and over the mines. The mines prevent solo players from getting inside buildings or the base itself. Team up, do rush, or find another strategy. Some servers do have a dumb mine limit but otherwise, you generally cannot mine everything important, thus it can be a good thing to find the weak point. 4 buildings or more can never be fully protected from entry alone.

If you want to solo buildings, you can try a beacon, but without team support it easily get disarmed.

The entire game is a team effort so I'm really just not picturing the problem at all.

[boxes]

I don't think you played enough to understand how important mines are. Getting rid of them will completely break the game. And if you're getting blocked off by mines, just jump into them and kill yourself (if you are a free class), or pop a few and run back to base for a refill or sneak in, or just find an engineer for repairs. Waiting around is very inefficient for your team.

If there are mines everywhere, so many that you can't even sneak in their base, you should tell that to your team because the other team is most likely overmining. That means their buildings are probably unmined, meaning any infantry can just walk inside taking little to no damage.

For example, if you're Nod, set up a SBH c4 team. If you're GDI, do a Hotwire APC/Chinook rush.

Grenadiers and Flame troopers aren't exactly "anti-structure" classes, though they are labeled as one. They are indeed the free classes that deal the most damage to structures externally, but rarely will you ever see a successful building destruction from these 2 guys. Just use them against infantry and vehicles.

Again, you need to play more to get a better understanding of how normal games in Renegade flow. I also never played the original, but I took my time learning and adapting the concepts. My aim is still pretty bad, but a reason why I like this game so much is that even if you don't have proper mouse control as some other players, you can still be an important factor for your team, as long as you participate in team plans and play accordingly.

I consistently get a top score in my team, mainly by playing smart. In time you'll know what action to take in certain situations, and if you act appropriately, you can save your team's ass.

tl;dr infantry that isn't engie based need a little more love and current game in shellnut: GDI turtlefest to prevent SBH beacon spam Nod breaks defense with apaches/flametanks/gets beacons down anyways NoD wins again GG no re.

Just play more. Every game is not like this. And if GDI is getting wrecked by Nod vehicles, the team is simply incompetent.

In most situations:

Weapons Factory > Airstrip

Hand of Nod > Barracks

[Truxa]

All I can really do is sit and stare at them and hope that some kind engineer who isn't with the vehicle convoys or defending will get rid of them for me. Mines seem to stagnate gameplay and further invalidate the other classes because they're blocked by mines which prevents them from doing part of their job.

Teamwork level CoD or BF4, anyone?!

RenX is a team-based game. Sure, the original game had a single player in which you were the commando, but in multiplayer, we are ALL commando's here. SO, we need to work together in order to prevail.

If you are blocked by mines all the time, why dont you pick up an engi/tech/hotty and rush to the place they mined and disarm it yourself?

Some shitty people do that all the time and it is shit anoying for someone like me who is actually 100% defending most of the games. Running between choke-points to check for disarmed mines when you see the limit drop. Ugh!

You must realize that even when you are disarming mines like a crazy fucker, it lessens the defensive capabilities of that team as they have to check for the disapearing mines. Enabling your team to rush

[yosh56]

HELL YES, YOU KNEW I'D BE COMMENTING ON THIS!

Trust me, you're not the first to bring this up, and Im still on the verge of just outright calling out Hotwires and Techs overpowered. They were a bit sketchy in OldRen, then RenX haphazardly buffed them with sidearms and sprinting. Now, I can't agree with everything here, but I'll break it down to show that you're not crazy, but some of it is just a lack of ever playing on good teams.

I don't really want to turn this into a "baww, engineer/hotwire/technician OP" kinda thread but anything important for the big picture of the game, the engineer/hotwire/technician does. And that's sort of a problem. Because they are the only ones who can do any of it. I don't play very much engineer and I think that as a result I end up somewhere in the middle to the bottom of the leaderboard, dependent on the overall playerbase that match

Engineers aren't really OP. They've got remotes, they can sprint and throw them, but they're really only strong in a base (enemy or friendly). Their repair gun...actually makes sense, so I don't dock them any points there. Aside from them being able to hold Tib-rifles and Carbines, they're alright in my book.

Technicians and Hotwires...they really are basically the only unit you need aside from snipers and vehicles. It's always an argument that needs so much cherry-picking to beat that it's harder not to just admit it. Seriously, throw a bulleted list of a Technician vs. a Mobius down and it is astounding that for 350+125 for a carbine, you're basically the most cost-effective unit in the entire game, on top of being able to do everything else other classes can't.

Technician can:

-close-range dish out 400 damage almost instantly with remotes to vehicles. 2 timed C4s do another 800, meaning for 350 you can solo a Mammoth tank when close enough. You literally JUST need to get close, and if they're close to your base it isn't difficult, and the amount of time to unload all of that C4 is far less than any weapon in the game can delve out damage. You don't even need to LIVE to see the timed C4(aka 800 damage) go off. Even basic engineers can still get an easy 400 damage through remotes.

-Heal infantry. Granted, till we think of an alternative method we're going to need to leave that alone.

-Disarm mines. That's cool, it's very engineer-ish of them.

-Heal vehicles. That's cool too, except DOUBLE the repair rate from the engineer's repair gun is a bit game-breaking (tech/arty anyone?)

-Capture structures. That's pretty CnCish, I guess.

-Carry weapons that make them at least as good as a tier 2 infantry combat-wise vs. infantry. The carbine and flechette gun in particular give TTKs close to that of a Volt Rifle with head shots.

-Suicide with remotes if he's about to lose in an infantry fight. Remote's splash means he can kill characters costing more than himself without even needing to be that close in terms of aiming.

-Disarm beacons. That's fine, as we can't have everyone walking around disarming beacons, as that'd make it a little too simple.

What can't they do? They can't snipe, and they can't engage vehicles at long range. That's really about it. In beta 1, when sidearms were broken and didn't go away till the round ended, I literally just played a Tech/Hoty with a carbine 90% of the game. No real point if you needed to get everything done. At least sidearms cost money more than once now.

Right, and about that 1000 credit Mobius:

-Can kill vehicles at short to short-moderate ranges. Does 400 Damage over 5 seconds. The FREE engineer can do this at short range in about 2 seconds.

-Can solo a building very loudly, and takes about 30 seconds to do so at the MCT, and with the enemy knowing he's there due to warnings.

-Can very effectively kill other infantry when they get shot in the face. He's also 1000 credits.

-Volt Rifle turns people into skeletons =D

As for what Mobius can't do. Well, he can't snipe, like the Engineer, and can't engage at long range. He also can't disarm the mines at the door to get inside of a building (though tier 3 health is admittedly good at tanking mines if you walk). He can't suicide and blow himself up if he's about to die in an infantry fight.

Alright, it only seems slightly imbalanced in the Tech's favour, but then let's remember that I just compared a 350+125 credit "support" unit to a 1000 credit killing machine.

So yes, the Technician is sort of an end-all-be-all unit. Don't get me wrong, you can kill other infantry faster with some more expensive class...but infantry aren't buildings, buildings are buildings. As for the point situation however, yes repair-whores are usually at the top of a team, but no you don't need to be an Engi/Tech to be up there. Snipers who can actually snipe well are up there as well, and if you're actively hitting vehicles with anti p-vehicle weapons a lot then that provides a lot of points too.

I'm even more hosed when Im going on the offensive and get blocked by mines. All I can really do is sit and stare at them and hope that some kind engineer who isn't with the vehicle convoys or defending will get rid of them for me. Mines seem to stagnate gameplay and further invalidate the other classes because they're blocked by mines which prevents them from doing part of their job. Like grenadiers/flamethrowers for example. As anti-structure classes they are stopped immediately from being remotely useful

Mines aren't going to change, and there's good reason for it. I've already had to explain this one before, and I'll go find the topic with my long drawn out explanation of why mines are how they are in Renegade, but I'll have to hunt it down later. For now I just say that Renegade is a team game, and no one person is really supposed to have all the power to just run and gun into a base. Servers with ridiculous mine limits may make them an issue, but as others have said, generally mines aren't going to be everywhere.

Also, the Grenadier and Flamethrower aren't really anti-structure classes meant for infiltrating. They're just the classes that can actually damage structures from the outside.

Higher tier classes actually tank mines rather well, though I kind of wish they would add in explosive resistances for certain characters (Like Gunner and the LCG BH) to let them be some form of alternate mine countermeasure.

Shotgunners and Soldiers and really any other fighting class is stopped as well. Most of them just grab a vehicle if they can or just mope around their base and defend. But nobody really comes, save for the occasional cluster of SBHs/gunner rushes. Because there are mines everywhere. so than people who don't do any of that go play sniper and one-shot all the free/150 credit units. So if you want to do anything with infantry, let alone free classes and you're not an engineer class or sniper, have fun dying or otherwise running around being pretty pointless.

Again, you can tank a fair bit of mines even as a free soldier. One free soldier entering a base isn't much of an issue, and it really isn't supposed to be.

Umm, plenty of people APC/Transport heli rush. Again, it's supposed to take some form of coordination to take down a building, unless you're an infiltration god with a Hoty...like me >_>. Five mines at the door only stops 1 free infantry, so the rest can just waltz right in.

People completely underestimate the overpowering ability of infantry. You can't fit 10 Meds into a small area, but damn if you can't fit 10 Mobius in a tunnel entrance and kill a building in 5 seconds from the outside. (No exaggeration, it is 5 seconds for 10 Volt rifles)

Infantry are pretty potent when mixed with vehicles. PICs and Railguns are the only weapons that can do that much damage instantly in one shot with no travel time. Snipers(1000 credit snipers) only really start feeling overpowering if you don't have ANY counter snipers on your team. Can't help a team issue.

tl;dr infantry that isn't engie based need a little more love and current game in shellnut: GDI turtlefest to prevent SBH beacon spam Nod breaks defense with apaches/flametanks/gets beacons down anyways NoD wins again GG no re.

Agree that other infantry need something. We have 14 classes, and only 2 have special abilities (Chem trooper and SBH) and 1 can cover most of the other's responsibilities to make them seem sort of obsolete. Could use some balancing/differentiation on the infantry front.

As for that being your experience with games so far...just sounds like bad teams vs. bad teams on Walls. GDI can literally stop most infiltration with 3 people on defence that know what they're doing (except Whiteout...screw Whiteout). That leaves 17 or so other people to drop the hammer on Nod, and honestly most players have no idea what to do with Nod after stealth doesn't work.

Moving in groups is good, but moving in groups also just leads to Planetside 2 syndrome. I'm an avid player of the game, but even in a platoon there's a lot less coordination, and just more 'there's a crap ton of people in this area'. Ren is smaller, requires a lot of talking amongst the other 15-19 people in game to actually win.

[goztow]

Bottom line the side arms should not be accessible for techs and hotties. Shows again how hard it is to add new stuff that wasn't in old Ren.

[SirPanfried]

I don't think you played enough to understand how important mines are. Getting rid of them will completely break the game.

I never said that mines should be removed. I just think that there shouldn't be only one class that is capable of dealing with them in some way. Maybe EMP grenades could temporarily disable them? Chem troopers or McFarlands could be able to destroy them? Its just that mines in their current state seem to halt infantry movement altogether. I rarely see rushes of any kind and the only real action is in tunnels (aka prepare to be sniped) and the vehicle column.

[SirPanfried]

Mines are a key part of the game that prevents buildings for falling too easily and serves as warning for when the base is infiltrated.

I don't see any problems here.

A single solo player doesn't really deserve to be able to just get in the base and over the mines. The mines prevent solo players from getting inside buildings or the base itself. Team up, do rush, or find another strategy. Some servers do have a dumb mine limit but otherwise, you generally cannot mine everything important, thus it can be a good thing to find the weak point. 4 buildings or more can never be fully protected from entry alone.

If you want to solo buildings, you can try a beacon, but without team support it easily get disarmed.

The entire game is a team effort so I'm really just not picturing the problem at all.

I'm seeing a couple of posts about "You can't do it all by yourself" kind of things and "teamwork prevails". And you're right. This game has a very big hinge on teamwork and coordination. And one lone shotgunner/soldier/team special shouldn't be able to just waltz in and singlehandedly take out a building ro heavy vehcile. But engineer? He's the class you CAN do most his class roles by yourself. Engineers don't really work as a team per se, but as a group. Their abilities are compounded not by working with coordination and communication, but simply by being lots of engineers. Just find a vehicle/building that needs to be fixed, look at it, hold down your mouse and the points just flow in. Enemy attacks you? You not only have a side arm, but a jihad button that will take out even some non-free classes in one hit. Engineers seem not to play as a team, but just play together. And they get a much higher reward compared to non-engineer type classes who do have to work a little harder to get the same results, if not less.

[boxes]

I don't think you played enough to understand how important mines are. Getting rid of them will completely break the game.

I never said that mines should be removed. I just think that there shouldn't be only one class that is capable of dealing with them in some way. Maybe EMP grenades could temporarily disable them? Chem troopers or McFarlands could be able to destroy them? Its just that mines in their current state seem to halt infantry movement altogether. I rarely see rushes of any kind and the only real action is in tunnels (aka prepare to be sniped) and the vehicle column.

I'm sorry for assuming you wanted them removed, but still, mines are fine as they are. The whole point of them is to stop enemy infantry coming in certain places. They shouldn't "halt infantry movement altogether", because if that's the case, like I said, their buildings are probably vulnerable to infiltrators. Tell your team to set up an engie APC rush.

Disarming mines isn't even the best way to get rid of them. It's better if you're an engie and you have a friend with you popping the mines while you repair him.

[Canucck]

There are too many mines. The limit shouldn't be high enough to mine every single door and tunnel, having to choose which spots are most important to mine at different points in the game is supposed to be important.

[Kil]

There are too many mines. The limit shouldn't be high enough to mine every single door and tunnel, having to choose which spots are most important to mine at different points in the game is supposed to be important.

Mmm, server-configurable mine limits weren't intended for people to set them to ridiculous numbers like 80...

@SirPanfried: Thanks for the new player perspective feedback. Renegade is definitely a game of depth so it's interesting to see what new people specifically get hung up on/find the most irritating so we can see where we need to try and address.

[SirPanfried]

Also another log to toss on the bitchins' fire: Snipers. Good god snipers are obnoxious as all get-out. They really ruin the infantry side of things on maps like islands. What's the point of shotgunners, soldiers, and officers when you can one-shot almost anything that has the audacity to get in your line of sight, with high health to boot? This hinges on the whole aforementioned teamwork emphasis. All you need is one really good Deadeye/Sakura to lock down an entire tunnel. Sure the char is 1000 credits, but so are mendozas/mobiuses and they have limits to their abilities despite being very strong.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Guest

[SirPanfried]

There are too many mines. The limit shouldn't be high enough to mine every single door and tunnel, having to choose which spots are most important to mine at different points in the game is supposed to be important.

Mmm, server-configurable mine limits weren't intended for people to set them to ridiculous numbers like 80...

@SirPanfried: Thanks for the new player perspective feedback. Renegade is definitely a game of depth so it's interesting to see what new people specifically get hung up on/find the most irritating so we can see where we need to try and address.

And I thank you guys as developers for listening. I've enjoyed Fpses that have more of a fast paced playstyle and teamwork emphasis as opposed to call-of-battlefield-of-honor-delta-force-seal-sniper-ranger 7 style FPSes that get cranked out nowadays. Keep on keepin' on.

[Bananas]

Also another log to toss on the bitchins' fire: Snipers. Good god snipers are obnoxious as all get-out. They really ruin the infantry side of things on maps like islands. What's the point of shotgunners, soldiers, and officers when you can one-shot almost anything that has the audacity to get in your line of sight, with high health to boot? This hinges on the whole aforementioned teamwork emphasis. All you need is one really good Deadeye/Sakura to lock down an entire tunnel. Sure the char is 1000 credits, but so are mendozas/mobiuses and they have limits to their abilities despite being very strong.

On facebook, the devs mentioned rebalancing the snipers next patch. I'm not sure what they have in mind.

Snipers will be a touchy subject for some people. I agree they could use a few changes though.

[MonkeyBoy]

damn im not sure i would feel about a sniper nerf... i personally dont think they need as as at close range , 95% of snipers wont last 5 seconds against most other units. They have uses such as removing enemy repairers or taking out strategical enemy infantry positions, but outside of that they are more of a fun unit with little impact to the actual game. I mean they cant even cover beacons properly because all you need is one tank to block the sight and its defused. Nerfing them would be unfair imo. im curious to see what you think needs changing bananas

[WhisKeY]

I agree that mines are OP...

They are an important part of the game, but their damage should be toned down a bit. A single infantry should be able to run through 4-5 before dying, like in Ren. Right now, it seems 1-2 do it.

Perhaps adding a repair gun sidearm for other inf to purchase would help with inf balance.

[Bananas]

I agree that mines are OP...

They are an important part of the game, but their damage should be toned down a bit. A single infantry should be able to run through 4-5 before dying, like in Ren. Right now, it seems 1-2 do it.

I disagree. Mines are a joke right now. I can easily get through four of them. Here's a video on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9yo6KdGrzg

[Darkraptor]

In another topic a made the proposal to detached from Hotwire and Technican. Instead they should be buyable in the weapon menu instead of AT-Mines. Cause mines are very essential for base defense and when you lose HoN or barracks, you are screwed. Especially when you are GDI.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Guest

[Canucck]

damn im not sure i would feel about a sniper nerf... i personally dont think they need as as at close range , 95% of snipers wont last 5 seconds against most other units. They have uses such as removing enemy repairers or taking out strategical enemy infantry positions, but outside of that they are more of a fun unit with little impact to the actual game. I mean they cant even cover beacons properly because all you need is one tank to block the sight and its defused. Nerfing them would be unfair imo. im curious to see what you think needs changing bananas

All infantry are really powerful atm, not just snipers. But if you nerfed snipers too much vehicles would become ridiculous since no other infantry can kill engineers behind tanks reliably. Sniping is very easy still despite the nerfs in RenX compared to Ren (refire time, zoom slow, buffs to all AoE weapons, maps changes), but it's kinda the lesser of two evils. The game would just be completely broken if they weren't able to counter engies the way they do atm.

Although reducing hav/sak damage to ~190 against infantry might do some good, might at least make the players that buy a sakura as soon as the bar dies for easy kills think twice. That's always been the worst part of ren

[yosh56]

In another topic a made the proposal to detached from Hotwire and Technican. Instead they should be buyable in the weapon menu instead of AT-Mines. Cause mines are very essential for base defense and when you lose HoN or barracks, you are screwed. Especially when you are GDI.

Well that's sort of the point of losing buildings: you lose the ability to do things. That's why Hotwires and Techs need to know that they're very high priority targets once the Bar is down.

Can't agree with mines being OP at all. I literally just disarm 2/5 in a doorway then walk through the last 3. It's faster and if you don't throw your body at them you take a lot of reduced splash damage.

Still under the impression that mine/explosive resistance should be looked into for certain classes. We had some of it in OldRen, but I've got a feeling it was one of those concepts that never was able to come to full fruition before the game lost support(Like CnC Glacier's Repair pad and the very-rushed Aircraft). It already feels like infantry take more splash damage from tanks in X vs. OldRen, and it's not like resistances to explosions/mines suddenly make them OP or anything (so long as it's the right classes that have it). It just kind of makes them able to supplement infantry rushes better. Think LCG Blackhand with all that armour, and perhaps all of the TRUE Anti-tank infantry.

[Darkraptor]

A big advantage of buyable mines would be, that no noobs are go to buy them. So only people who are aware of the value of mines will buy and use them right

Hotwires and technican can have instead of mines another specially item.

For example: They could set up a sentry guns like in team fortress. Of course only one sentry gun by each Hotwire or Technican. And when the player dies, the sentry gun will also disapear.

[Bananas]

im curious to see what you think needs changing bananas

Mostly just small stuff. Slightly slower fire speed and slightly longer reload speed. Maybe slight cost increase. Even small nerfs might be too much, but it would be worth trying.

My major sniper complaint is just ramjets being so powerful. I think they are way too powerful against free classes.

Although reducing hav/sak damage to ~190 against infantry might do some good, might at least make the players that buy a sakura as soon as the bar dies for easy kills think twice. That's always been the worst part of ren

This is my biggest complaint. As a free class, being one shot in the body from any distance is just frustrating. I'm ok with raveshaw/sydney doing this because they fire extremely slow. You can actually punish a rave/syd for missing. When a 1k sniper misses, it's no big deal, they just fire again.

Every person I've gotten to try renx have all complained about this. Barr/Hon goes down and out come the 1k snipers. Extremely frustrating to play against. Is it bad that I think you could remove ramjets and the game would still play just fine? Just substitute rocket soldiers and raves/syds for air defense.

Anyways, I'm interested in what the devs have planned for snipers. Maybe they can give some info on it.

[SFJake]

IMO, I always found snipers ridiculous in Renegade, period. But at least, if it stands to headshots, it at least took quite a bit of skill.

Biggest problem with ramjet actually is that they're just all around godlike. And thats just wrong. They should be long-range gods. Snipers shouldn't have any sort of power up close. Every hit should screw your aim completely and you'd have to aim down your scope do have accuracy. Make them countered by automatics so tunnels and every little section of the map isn't magically 50x better off with a ramjet backing them.

Old Renegade fans might not like the idea. Plus, I do generally want to keep your options open. But ramjets in particular definitely kill the fun. I love how this game has a high "time to kill" in general but then oh look, ramjets. Even normal snipers are way too powerful, but at least require a lot more skill per shot.

I don't expect any of that to happen, though. I'd do anything to live in a world where Havocs die to Mobius.

[WhisKeY]

I agree that mines are OP...

They are an important part of the game, but their damage should be toned down a bit. A single infantry should be able to run through 4-5 before dying, like in Ren. Right now, it seems 1-2 do it.

I disagree. Mines are a joke right now. I can easily get through four of them. Here's a video on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9yo6KdGrzg

After seeing that, I retract my statement - but I wouldn't say they're a joke. Maybe it is where it should be. Now that I know structure walls nerf the damage, I have some testing to do.

[SirPanfried]

Good to know some share my sentiments about snipers. It really sucks whittling a Sakura down to 2% health and dying in one shot at full health due to a panic shot. What's worse is when they don't even do it on accident.

[RoundShades]

Eh, I would both be okay with mines having less health, and there being a weak repair gun as a secondary for 350, so you could choose hotwire with powerful secondary (which carbine should also cost 350), or rocket officer with repair gun. This also means other units can diffuse mines.

Tbh, this adds even more power and complexity to SBH, but tbh, if you are patrolling, this makes them even more dead.

And to clarify on health decrease on mines, I mean make a weak repair gun diffuse them as fast as a strong, and a strong diffuse it that much faster to give hotwires with infantry that much more a use.

I gurantee you, you would see so much damn variety in the gameplay from this.

[yosh56]

Eh, I would both be okay with mines having less health, and there being a weak repair gun as a secondary for 350, so you could choose hotwire with powerful secondary (which carbine should also cost 350), or rocket officer with repair gun. This also means other units can diffuse mines.

Tbh, this adds even more power and complexity to SBH, but tbh, if you are patrolling, this makes them even more dead.

And to clarify on health decrease on mines, I mean make a weak repair gun diffuse them as fast as a strong, and a strong diffuse it that much faster to give hotwires with infantry that much more a use.

I gurantee you, you would see so much damn variety in the gameplay from this.

See so much variety from...being able to clear mines faster as a Hotwire, still carry a carbine (maps with high eco 350 is chump-change), and be able to solo a building? Dunno, but I think this does less to help and more to exacerbate the issue.

Great, so I could be a Rocket soldier, or Officer and disarm mines slowly for 500 credits with a semi-decent weapon, or just wait for 200 extra to disarm mines way faster, be able to solo a building and carry an automatic weapon. Think I'll go with the latter...every single time.

Weak repair gun under weapons tab isn't a terribly bad idea, but eating away mine health makes Techs even more useful than they already are.

Also, SBHs would probably still just walk mines. It's a lot faster if you have even just 2 people.

[RoundShades]

Also, SBHs would probably still just walk mines. It's a lot faster if you have even just 2 people.

That's the point. Oh, forgot to mention to the original poster, you can have 2-3 guys walk into mines to clear them. Suicide them is one idea, soak damage and get healed up is another, both are faster.

But, to repair mines faster makes it an option. And, to make it possible for every unit also makes it an option. Because, if 3 varieties of tunnel unit, can carry repair guns, then they can fight AND disarm once done fighting, however can't disarm and fight at same time, so as long as you watch the mines and only fight once enemies start disarm, you can actually carry out a tactical and lengthy battle around it, as well as just continue to remine.

Now, hotwire can both disarm faster, and actually lay mines, and carry a carbine, sure. However, the carbine is the best weapon of it's class, which is single engagement mid range open-area tight-shot-placement autorifle. It lacks clip, range, spreadfire, and fires so fast that missing partially waste a lot of damage. Hotwires aren't actually that great against a variety of infantry. Engineers are even more limited given their health.

Basically, it is actually a really good idea, given you could nerf the carbine a bit and/or increase cost a bit because secondaries should be a t2 while free weps are t1 and class-based should be t3...

...but the main point of the post, is because the "repair" ability is locked to the engineer/tech/hotwire, and you can almost never have too much repair, so 50% of all a team is hotwire. Trust me, if a secondary repairgun existed, tank users would use rail/pic with repgun, tunnel infy would use chems and mcfarland (mcfarland needs slight buff) and ramjets with them, and base repaieres would use techs/hotwires. Tank support and not drivers could choose anti-infy ramjet/500, anti-armor laser-chain/patch/pic/rail, or straight up dedicated hotwire repair.

Then, secondaries could be more diverse. Heavy pistol contributes to anti-armor if they are low health and you want to snag the kill instead of repair your own teammates tank. Carbine is derp already. A marksman-like rifle as a secondary would be neat, maybe a rifle with half sniper rifle damage and 5 rounds fired sort of quick but not as quick as marksman and low reserve ammo like all secondaries. All secondaries having low reserve ammo to warrant their use 3 times max with only 1 backup clip would be nice. (not the starting pistol, it can be infinite)

It breaks legacy, but also, hotwires/techs don't HAVE to carry mines. Mines could easily be a "beacon-slot" item along with emp nades and AT mines and all other items. Then those can be maintained through that.

[WhisKeY]

I like BroTranquilty's ideas and agree mine health should be lowered.

[SirPanfried]

IMO, I always found snipers ridiculous in Renegade, period. But at least, if it stands to headshots, it at least took quite a bit of skill.

Biggest problem with ramjet actually is that they're just all around godlike. And thats just wrong. They should be long-range gods. Snipers shouldn't have any sort of power up close. Every hit should screw your aim completely and you'd have to aim down your scope do have accuracy. Make them countered by automatics so tunnels and every little section of the map isn't magically 50x better off with a ramjet backing them.

Old Renegade fans might not like the idea. Plus, I do generally want to keep your options open. But ramjets in particular definitely kill the fun. I love how this game has a high "time to kill" in general but then oh look, ramjets. Even normal snipers are way too powerful, but at least require a lot more skill per shot.

I don't expect any of that to happen, though. I'd do anything to live in a world where Havocs die to Mobius.

As much as i like this idea I'm certain most ramjet snipers will just get a tib rifle or carbine and mow you with that if you're unfortunate enough to be a free class. Not that a free class should beat a ramjet with ease, but they shouldn't be automatically insta-boned either.

[Havoc89]

I agree that mines are OP...

They are an important part of the game, but their damage should be toned down a bit. A single infantry should be able to run through 4-5 before dying, like in Ren. Right now, it seems 1-2 do it.

I disagree. Mines are a joke right now. I can easily get through four of them. Here's a video on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9yo6KdGrzg

After seeing that, I retract my statement - but I wouldn't say they're a joke. Maybe it is where it should be. Now that I know structure walls nerf the damage, I have some testing to do.

Actually this isn't true. The mines are special cases where they damage constant regardless of any obstacles. The reason why in that video you took less damage is because you approached slowly and kept at the far end of the blast radius as a result taking less damage. The Proxy have a trigger radius but also has a trigger delay to let the infantry get a little bit closer to deal the maximum damage. But if you approach slowly you wont take the full blast on your face, and thus hold out longer.

On topic, the problem with mines is not so much that they exist, its more so servers setting ridiculous mine limits.

As per snipers, we're thinking of perhaps nerfing the ramjet damage vs body shots to prevent one hit kills, while damage vs vehicles would still be the same. 500 sniper would remain untouched. Back in the closed beta, we gave snipers high spread to be inaccurate when not zoomed in, but the majority of the testers disliked it. But its clear that any compensation will result in some people not being happy with a change.

Thanks for the feedback guys, please keep them coming. The more we hear the better!

[yosh56]

Actually this isn't true. The mines are special cases where they damage constant regardless of any obstacles. The reason why in that video you took less damage is because you approached slowly and kept at the far end of the blast radius as a result taking less damage. The Proxy have a trigger radius but also has a trigger delay to let the infantry get a little bit closer to deal the maximum damage. But if you approach slowly you wont take the full blast on your face, and thus hold out longer.

On topic, the problem with mines is not so much that they exist, its more so servers setting ridiculous mine limits.

So basically the same as OldRen. Walk em and you can take out damn near a whole door by yourself. I think the sprint key makes people forget these things. Like I said, I rarely disarm all mines as a Hotwire. Just need to get rid of 2/5 to walk into a building, no real need to use a wall, but it does help to limit your movement.

[SirPanfried]

As per snipers, we're thinking of perhaps nerfing the ramjet damage vs body shots to prevent one hit kills, while damage vs vehicles would still be the same. 500 sniper would remain untouched. Back in the closed beta, we gave snipers high spread to be inaccurate when not zoomed in, but the majority of the testers disliked it. But its clear that any compensation will result in some people not being happy with a change.

Thanks for the feedback guys, please keep them coming. The more we hear the better!

It would be a little more relief to free/tier 2 chars so we could actually have some sort of fights in hallways. Granted they could still use sidearms. The way I see it Volt chars should be the stronger in close range, and ramjets in long range. Still I'd be keen on the spread idea.

[Bananas]

On topic, the problem with mines is not so much that they exist, its more so servers setting ridiculous mine limits.

Agreed. The mutator for different mine counts on different maps has been very helpful. Certain maps play much better with lower or higher mine counts. For example Field is a nightmare with high mine count. Everyone just starts spamming the tunnels with mines.

As per snipers, we're thinking of perhaps nerfing the ramjet damage vs body shots to prevent one hit kills, while damage vs vehicles would still be the same. 500 sniper would remain untouched. Back in the closed beta, we gave snipers high spread to be inaccurate when not zoomed in, but the majority of the testers disliked it. But its clear that any compensation will result in some people not being happy with a change.

I feel like this will help nerf ramjets at long range. Walls will be much better not getting one shot in your own base. I'm unsure how helpful it will be at closer ranges though. A quick swap to your favorite sidearm would be enough to finish them off. It would give a slightly longer time to kill, but I doubt many free infantry would get through. It should help at least.