Mesa Design Changes inbound!

[Nielsen]

Hello everyone, look forward to design changes for Mesa in the upcoming patch(es)

A short breakdown and a picture.

-Added short vehicle route. The previously inf-only section is now a short veh route for artillery duels.

-Short - Long vehicle routes are now connected through the central cave and old silo position to increase mobility.

-Silo has been placed near harvesters to make long vehicle route viable as well as centralise economy harassment.

-Cave is now infantry only! Let's face it, Mesa was just critical massing of artillery on the shortest possible route and one side losing a building usually resulted in a loss directly or not shortly after...

The cave being infantry only means the Powerplant has been switched with GDI barracks to create a more balanced situation, both teams can infiltrate the powerplant equally now to disable defenses for a vehicle push.

We won't know what good it'll do until it's all in your hands and everyone's playing but fingers crossed that the map will be a lot better for it come next patch!

Dump your concerns and praise in the comments below ; )

[Jack Brace]

Wow, I like the changes. It's a whole new take on the map, but nothing like the original anymore. Don't get me wrong, I would love this, but can we keep MesaII as well ?

[Darkraptor]

could be interesting .

@Nielsen: Are you going to do some graphical changes, like fixing the floor texture of some buildings.

[Action Hank]

Interesting.

Not sure if I like it yet, but hey we need to playtest it and give it a chance.

Cave was a big farm, although I fear the cave might become somewhat useless now.

Also I kinda like vehicles inside the cave tbh.

Oh well, I need to play it a couple of times before any real feedback.

[Nielsen]

Yes, as many fixes as possible will be included. The fogballs in use in and around the cave exits have all been reduced in opacity by 50-100% where needed too so it should be a lot easier to see everything.

As for keeping Mesa ii, I don't know if we're doing that. We did a check on the 50 last voted maps on a server and Mesa came up the least amount of times. There is probably a very small minority currently enjoying the version as is.

Of course this will be somewhat remedied by the map selection / voting system coming but still, we felt that Mesa designwise is somewhat dodgy in places.

Again we'll have to see how the new version plays but we're confident these are changes for the best.

[RoundShades]

I actually sadly think this is a better design only if base defences are removed (or downgraded or moved around)

-guard towers and turrets inside base but not on paths?

-AGT and OBBY moved out of sight of infantry entrances but in sight of vehicle entrances?

Here is a wierd harvester idea too:

-What if harvesters harvested from blue tiberium again, and there was a deep chasm dividing the blue tiberium. That way, vehicles can enter center, and can shoot each other's harvester and maybe through opening on either side, but cannot cross in vehicle to enter the enemy base through the center?

[Bananas]

Reporting in as one of the few who loved Mesa. Mesa was my favorite map, so I'll give some feedback and concerns.

First I should mention why I like Mesa. Mesa, like Field, is one of the few maps where it is incredibly hard to sneak into a base. I think this promotes teamwork. Not every map should be like this, but I like having a few that are.

You mentioned the cave being an artillery fest, but the new short route will probably just turn into this. How will this be any different? At least in the cave it was hard to repair your teams vehicles. You could also break sieges by using infantry on the bridge. Besides the terrain, I don't see this new route being different.

Short-long routes being connected is fine. I don't see anything but positives coming from this change.

The silo being placed with harvesters is interesting but worrisome. If you put a few tanks near it, suddenly one team starts to win incredibly hard. They get silo money and harvester money while denying the other team money. This is the same problem Field has at the moment. One team takes a position and doesn't just deny the enemy, they also start to win harder. This map will be slightly different since there are multiple routes, but economically it will still be the same. You can't win without money.

Cave infantry only? I guess this could work. It would make it easier to flank with infantry using the side ramps. In this regard I like it. I always thought it took too long to get to the bridge without the middle.

Now some concerns that come to mind based on how Mesa currently is.

First off the cave. The tiberium in the cave is extremely hard to get around as infantry. Also the AGT tends to shoot inside of the cave in some spots I believe. Will there be a way into PP? You mention infiltrating the PP. Will this be a straight rush while tanking the defenses or will there be cover?

Regarding the new short route. The AGT here is extremely weird from my experience. It shoots far in some spots and doesn't shoot some spots it seems like it should. What are the plans for this route? Are the base defenses going to pound anything that gets in view, or will the terrain be redesigned?

I'm interested in how these changes will play out. They seem like they will be fun to try.

[MonkeyBoy]

If the main cave is infantry only, then what is the infantrys motivation to go in there? Infantry can go in there and shoot down the tanks attacking your base or snipe down the repairers, but if tanks can no longer go in there then that cave will be useless and infantry just became a whole lot weaker on this map. which in turn gives GDI an advantage because half of nods strength lies with its infantry force

[Nielsen]

You mentioned the cave being an artillery fest, but the new short route will probably just turn into this. How will this be any different? At least in the cave it was hard to repair your teams vehicles. You could also break sieges by using infantry on the bridge. Besides the terrain, I don't see this new route being different.

The silo being placed with harvesters is interesting but worrisome. If you put a few tanks near it, suddenly one team starts to win incredibly hard. They get silo money and harvester money while denying the other team money. This is the same problem Field has at the moment. One team takes a position and doesn't just deny the enemy, they also start to win harder. This map will be slightly different since there are multiple routes, but economically it will still be the same. You can't win without money.

First off the cave. The tiberium in the cave is extremely hard to get around as infantry. Also the AGT tends to shoot inside of the cave in some spots I believe. Will there be a way into PP? You mention infiltrating the PP. Will this be a straight rush while tanking the defenses or will there be cover?

Regarding the new short route. The AGT here is extremely weird from my experience. It shoots far in some spots and doesn't shoot some spots it seems like it should. What are the plans for this route? Are the base defenses going to pound anything that gets in view, or will the terrain be redesigned?

-Cave artillery was sheltered, choked and very annoying to get by, they'll have to expose themselves on the short route more as well as drive a bit longer to start taking potshots at things.

-The silo placed with harvesters as well as defended by tanks is a trade off. The first building you hit from the short route for both teams is the Refinery. When the enemy army is at the silo en-masse you can counter by attacking short and take out the refinery when resistance is light. This works both ways.

-Infiltrating the PP will be somewhat hidden to defenses, it's possible you might get hit but it's a small entrance which can be mined but should be watched regardless.

-Yes the AGT is weird in that regard, looking into that.

Outlined above is of course the theory behind the design changes. We'll have to see what players preferred routes / strategies become.

If the main cave is infantry only, then what is the infantrys motivation to go in there? Infantry can go in there and shoot down the tanks attacking your base or snipe down the repairers, but if tanks can no longer go in there then that cave will be useless and infantry just became a whole lot weaker on this map. which in turn gives GDI an advantage because half of nods strength lies with its infantry force

To move towards the silo / harvesters safe from vehicles, to move to enemy powerplant while walking. They can also do something about vehicles traversing from short to long route there.

[Jack Brace]

As for keeping Mesa ii, I don't know if we're doing that. We did a check on the 50 last voted maps on a server and Mesa came up the least amount of times. There is probably a very small minority currently enjoying the version as is...

...Again we'll have to see how the new version plays but we're confident these are changes for the best.

I am a fan of the more impopular maps of the old Renegade, Field, Hourglass, Mesa, Under (but I think Under is more liked because it was the "first map"). They tend to get messy, and get into stalemates with high pop servers, which I like. But the big "BUT" here is that these maps are awesome on lower pop servers, and we don't have those right now, or at least they aren't populating.

I vote MesaII whenever I can, unless Field is in the race.

In regards to the changes though this map looks like something new and fresh. I would make it MesaIII; where the mid section is semi-blown up by all the stalemates, blocking the tanks, as an increment to MesaII. (But MesaII should be there still, because it represents the old days.)

My2c.

[A-Rodge]

If the main cave is infantry only, then what is the infantrys motivation to go in there? Infantry can go in there and shoot down the tanks attacking your base or snipe down the repairers, but if tanks can no longer go in there then that cave will be useless and infantry just became a whole lot weaker on this map. which in turn gives GDI an advantage because half of nods strength lies with its infantry force

In the original post, they said that powerplant can now be infiltrated by infantry.

This is an excellent change and makes infantry combat and holding ground a lot more intense because there is a lot at stake. I would like to see infantry access implemented in field and tweaked in gold rush as a wishlist item.

Great job devs, cant wait to play it and see future map innovations.

[^_^]

I love you try and bring more life in Mesa(2) I think it is a challenging map now-a-days, since most people prefer sniper / commando mode over team effort to win.

@Nielsen: Are you going to do some graphical changes, like fixing the floor texture of some buildings.

I would kill to see this change! Every time I run in a Nod building to repair I cannot shoot the floor to initialise some repairs, since the floor is "no part of the building". I believe the bases are put on some kind of texture to give it a base-like feeling. At Nod this resulted in this bug.

The silo being placed with harvesters is interesting but worrisome. If you put a few tanks near it, suddenly one team starts to win incredibly hard. They get silo money and harvester money while denying the other team money. This is the same problem Field has at the moment. One team takes a position and doesn't just deny the enemy, they also start to win harder. This map will be slightly different since there are multiple routes, but economically it will still be the same. You can't win without money.

In my perspective, the map will be divided into three parts now:

1. infantry cave, with vehicles able to pass over

2. Harvy route + silo (is it me or is the silo on a small island next to the tiberium field?)

3. Rush route for flamers / stanks / arty / meds / whatever

Is this good or bad? I do not know. The other option would be to place the silo on the short route with a small tiberium field with it (it won't fit in the tunnel sadly). This would spread the load between harvy / silo, but put the edge on ref + silo + heavy tanks bashing on the base. In this perspective the silo near the harvy would be a reasonable idea.

Also will the AGT be turned? Currently snipers from the short route can snipe in the AGT when the door is open.

You mention "balancing" the bases by swapping pp and barracks, which is interesting. But if I take the long route with an arty I can shoot the new placed barracks quickly and rather safe, while with a MRLS I can only rather safely hit the refinery (again, poor Nod). Maybe see if there is a possibility to put the air tower on the other side of the landing strip?

Can I vote for cookies and pictures (especially about the infantry -> pp thingy)?

[tekgunman]

In regards to the changes, they look interesting and I can't wait to try the map out.

My issue is the laptop I run this game on isn't the greatest with my fps staying in the lower-mid 20s depending on the map. I get close to 30 fps on maps like Field, Islands, Walls, even Whiteout, the map that used to run the worst on my system. Fps generally gets better with the season change, though.

So can you optimize the map the same as the aforementioned maps or is this not possible due to the map terrain?

[[TmX]Super-Kh]

Why the silo seems like it is closer to Nod's side ?

[Kil]

Super-Kh":3huafpzl]Why the silo seems like it is closer to Nod's side ?

It's in the centre of the long-path. So no it isn't.

[Darkraptor]

I liked the old position of the silo in messa II. Because it could only be reached be infantry.

[Skeeze]

Good to see you're still working on balancing maps!

This looks very interesting, seems to increase vehicle deploymemt time alot by removing the vehicle cave entrance

[epicelite]

Maybe make part/all of the middle hill top accessible to infantry?

Either way sounds like some fun changes.

[WhisKeY]

I loved the tank battles in the cave in regular Ren - was very competitive and technical. Sad to see that go, as it was one of my favourite clanwar maps. I understand the Ren-X map needed changes though so I'll reserve judgement until I play it. I hope you improve on Westwood's original vision.

[RoundShades]

I loved the tank battles in the cave in regular Ren - was very competitive and technical. Sad to see that go, as it was one of my favourite clanwar maps. I understand the Ren-X map needed changes though so I'll reserve judgement until I play it. I hope you improve on Westwood's original vision.

I agree I liked it too.

Then again, if you think about it, the inside of the mesa does look like an arena shooter.

Also, this will make Mesa the first map with two ends of the base open for vehicles, no? Like City Flying. Not like whiteout where there are 2 openings but they both funnel into one, or Volcano which had a narrow tiberium tunnel like Mesa originally had (which is why mesa could use the change TBH)

I just think the map could use for the infantry tunnels to actually get into the bases whereas the death-towers literally gaze right at them. If base defences were moved back in the base a bit and/or blocked view of the cave, they could also have a better view of the base openings.

[Goku]

I loved the tank battles in the cave in regular Ren - was very competitive and technical. Sad to see that go, as it was one of my favourite clanwar maps. I understand the Ren-X map needed changes though so I'll reserve judgement until I play it. I hope you improve on Westwood's original vision.

ditto

[boxes]

The biggest change I wanted was to just remove the roof in the cave, so you can use airstrikes against whatever is inside. I'm not too sure on these changes, but like Whiskey said, I need to play it first to see if there's anything wrong with it.

[ReaperLi]

Keep the bridge plz,no jump on vechicle is not mesa II

[Canucck]

Switching the PP/Bar doesn't really even out the bases. Switching PP/WF would make them the most similar, as long as the bay door is facing the ref (side door facing the back of base)

[ReaperLi]

I draw a picture for my suggest(plz forgive my poor drawing skill)

I think the centralize on cave battle ,but give a much bigger room for vehicle to roam on the big map will be much happen for most player(there are somewhat wasted on this big map ,not much area you can drive a vehicle)

allow both side (top/bottom) vehicle pass tho the middle save with the danger of getting ambush by infantry should bring some new flash to the play,I choose to close the bottom(south) part of the base for vehicle to going out only is because that will become 3 way open for vehicle rush...kinda a bit too much,the short vehicle can shoot at base building already tho controlling that spot still give a lot tactical resource.

and I forgot to edit the first picture,that green vehicle ramp should have some gap in between so infantry can walk in/out the base,you can also do APC drop there (need someone distract AGT/obby)