Whiteout Revision [Feedback]

[HappyConscript]

UPDATE

Hey everyone, I have some new pictures for all of you!

First of all, here is a top-down view to demonstrate the latest configuration of base defenses:

KEY

RED: Gun Emplacements

ORANGE: Missile Emplacements

YELLOW: Automated Defenses (Turrets/Towers)

PINK: Blocked Lines of Sight

GREEN: New Paths (Infantry Only)

A few things to notice:

-The 4-way tunnels are back

-Each base has 2 gun emplacements and 1 missile emplacement on its front wall

-Each base has two automated defenses

-The automated defenses aid in the protection of infiltration, while not disabling it

-One automated defenses is defended from direct attack from the hill

-The other automated defense is open to attack

Feedback is welcome and appreciated!

Also, here are some other pictures of new area's/improvements to provide you all with a better perspective:

Thanks for all the feedback everyone! Keep it up!

EDIT:

I should clarify for everyone, that heavy defenses (AGT/OBI) will NOT be added. This would generally create more problems than it would solve. Furthermore, solving those problems would take a lot more work than I have time for. It would be really helpful to me if everyone can think of strong configurations for the base defenses that don't rely on heavy defenses.

Thanks everyone!

[IllumZar]

Well first of all there are some nice improvements^^

This map needed more infantry paths.

As for defences; are there just 2 guard towers for Gdi and 2 turrets for NOD? (+AA of course)

Honestly, when one side takes the field those little towers are done for...

and without any gun emplacements the SBH could freely roam the Gdi base.

It would be best to have something like Hourglass with Full defence (Agt or Obi + 2 MGtowers or turrets)

For the placements I suggest the Atg & Obi in front of the bases and the other 2 small defences there where the gun emplacements were.

[^_^]

Hey HappyConscript,

First off, I think that the infantry route is nice designed and offers much needed ways to enter the bases. Also the tunnel below the mountain looks more functional now.

If I understand correctly, there is one Guard Tower / Turret in the main entrance (where Obi / AGT was in Hourglass, old Ren) and the second Guard Tower / Turret south of the Strip and between PP and Barracks.

I feel that the GT's are in a good position to counter SBH's (GT's are rather OP shooters vs infantry), however, this map is mostly not won by SBH. The main killing factor on Whiteout is the control of the hill by Nod artillery and GDI's lack of countering this camping by the GDI team and the map itself.

I feel like the GT's / turrets will achieve little in this perspective of "map balance". Artillery will destroy the south turret quickly, since it is out of standard sights, and the main gate GT will be destroyed when the repairs are forced to repair the buildings. We can hold the same argument for Nod base, but since Nod is largely favoured on this map I will not discuss this part. Maybe it would be interesting to see the south GT in the middle of the GDI base, next to the small bunker that is there. I would not place it directly in front of the infantry route, since the GT has no trouble nailing infantry down that do not cover quickly. The Nod south turret I would switch with the Sam Site at the PP. This to give it more perspective on shooting incoming tanks, and then place the Sam Site at the top of the Airstrip (since the other Sam Site is on the Hand).

Maybe it would be an idea to try and increase / lower the height of the mountain, so artillery / mrls can not use the flat top to hide from incoming fire and shoot rather safe. The "fight far the hill" is a nice concept, but when one team pushes the other in repairs (since you can hit all buildings), the game is in 90% of the cases over.

For the placements I suggest the Atg & Obi in front of the bases and the other 2 small defences there where the gun emplacements were.

I did not cover the use of the Obi / AGT yet, but since I read it now I will shed my light. I think that adding the advanced base defences requires (ABD) massive changes to the maps. The ABD would totally prevent the use of the infantry route and mountain tunnel. If this is an option, the "infiltration route" for infantry should be revamped again. Also there is a different worry: the height of the AGT vs the Obelisk. Why I say this is simple: will the AGT cover the mountain as good as the Obelisk? No, it will not, since it is lower. This probably shifts the map totally in Nods favour.

ps. These are my thoughts about it, good luck modifying!!

[RoundShades]

Might be more like "A Path Beyond's map: South by Southwest", or like "Glacier Flying", If you had:

-both teams entrance, 1 wall gun emplacement, 1 missile wall gun emplacement, balanced to be rapidfire low damage pretty much amounting to the same dps as a tank could do in the same time of firing. Right now when used they are slightly OP especially for a free gun.

-both teams entrance, 1 central automated defence (turret/tower), and possibly 1 inside the base center or 2 on each of the back-edges.

-Make "non-structure tier-1 automated defences" respawn with a long time limit, sort of like the current gun emplacements. Of course, as automated, let them keep their current damage, they aren't rly OP atm.

Really the gdi gun towers are specifically UP, sbh can man-up to the damage really well. It would help quite a bit to at least make them respawnable with a 2-5 minute respawn. Besides that, a humvee should be patrolling and looking for the tower marking targets like on Lakeside.

If the automated towers/turrets were placed at orange locations, and missle/gun emplacements were placed at blue locations, defence would be acceptable. Also, would it be possible for the gun emplacement to be on the infantry side and have the rotation to reach the infantry entrance as well as the front?

Edited October 24, 2014 by Guest

[SFJake]

Just want to jump in to say indeed, the guard tower's damage is pathetic. Its strategic use in this map in particular needs it to have more firepower.

I like the suggested changes and the new infantry path is a neat idea. I wish Field could get this treatment as well!

[HappyConscript]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback. I'll update this thread later with any new developments.

For now though, it is probably worth noting two potential updates coming in Beta 4 (or whatever)

-SBH cloak effect is red tinted rather than white/blue

-NOD turrets have a higher fire rate

Just two things to consider regarding Whiteout specifically.

[RoundShades]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback. I'll update this thread later with any new developments.

For now though, it is probably worth noting two potential updates coming in Beta 4 (or whatever)

-SBH cloak effect is red tinted rather than white/blue

-NOD turrets have a higher fire rate

Just two things to consider regarding Whiteout specifically.

The tower damage is bad. Considering all the turrets die easily, them respawning would make them acceptable. Considering the GDI turret is so weak, it needs at least the angle to mark enemies appropriately. Which is why on my picture in my last post, the towers can reach the front and infantry entrance (not like they can kill infantry), and cutting a 4 way dividing each building (as well as covering the gdi factory entrances because srsly).

And the rof buff as well as the 5 minute respawn would benefit nod more than gdi but I believe in ways that nod needs.

[Goku]

Good work, I do agree thou whiteout could do with either a guard tower near the back or AGT/Obi restored.

But then again this isnt hourglass is it lol!

[boxes]

I also would like to see a full set of defenses. Biggest reason is dealing with stealth, which would easily make Whiteout more balanced.

In regards to earlier comments, I actually think the turrets work just fine.

The turrets on both teams don't do a real good job at killing (if anything, GDI's gun turrets do a much better job at both vehicles and infantry, so increased ROF on the Nod turret is indeed necessary for matching their effectiveness), which I don't have a problem with. I really like them because they are great at bringing attention to infiltrators, like stealth, techs/hotties. That itself is a huge plus.

~

I still hope there would be a fix in the map that would make it easier for a team to counter Artillery/MRLS hiding behind the middle hill, or the sides.

About that, it isn't quite fair that Nod is able to hit, for example, the WF and the Ref when camping on the left side of the map. For MRLS, it's impossible to hit the resource buildings anywhere behind cover because of the airstrip setting them farther away.

[A-Rodge]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback. I'll update this thread later with any new developments.

For now though, it is probably worth noting two potential updates coming in Beta 4 (or whatever)

-SBH cloak effect is red tinted rather than white/blue

-NOD turrets have a higher fire rate

Just two things to consider regarding Whiteout specifically.

First off, I think its awesome that you guys are engaging the community about development processes. It is the perfect ingredient for maintaining a loyal player base, so thank you.

As far as base defences, i think this speaks to a broader issue: Advanced Base Defenses are too unforgiving for infantry. That's why it is a good call to have two of the lighter automatic defenses. In addition to that, adding an infantry only path encourages more plays and tactics around base defense/destruction.

You are on the right path for Whiteout, and the the middle bunker is looking sweet. Please consider adding better cover for infantry in other maps like gold rush and field.

Thank you dev team!

[Darkraptor]

In my opinion are the the new only infantry path a good adition to the map.

But with the Stealth Black Hand soldiers on the side of Nod, guard towers are absolutly necessary for GDI.

But I need to do a another proposal for whiteout.

One thing I noticed while playing whiteout, is that GDI could easily bombard (with MRSL or Mammut) the silo while standing next to their base and defendig the base. So as Nodplayer you cant get control of the silo, when you lose your ref or airfield or both.

My proposal is to place the silo just a few meters to the south and place a rock to its sites. So players have a chance to reached the silo and not to beeing killed by a vehicle far away.

I made a few screenshoots to illustrated the problem:

[Canucck]

The infantry only paths are a good start, but you need the tunnel side entrances. The side tunnels were a big part of what made hourglass work well, and the paths up the side of hill don't really compensate enough.

[R315r4z0r]

I'd like to see full defenses on this map as well. I think a lot of the potential enjoyment of this map is wasted on people camping for SBHs. With full defenses, they wouldn't be a problem any more until the tower dies. That would let people breathe a little easier and be allowed to stretch their strategies out a little more. Also, before anyone says anything, adding full defenses into the map would not make it play like Hourglass. Whiteout already has enough differences to make stalemates much harder.

However, I'm not quite sold on the new infantry paths. Not that I think they are a bad idea, but because of where they are leading to.

The GDI infantry path has more cover than the Nod path after entering the base. Infantry can use the WF and Ref as cover whereas Nod's base is wide-open because of the airstrip. Secondly, Nod's path puts infantry closer to the power plant while GDI's path puts infantry closer to the refinery. Thirdly, the WF has a back door, the airstrip does not. Basically, I think the path in GDI's base is more useful than the path in Nod's base. Especially since Nod already have SBHs.

[RoundShades]

I'd like to see full defenses on this map as well. I think a lot of the potential enjoyment of this map is wasted on people camping for SBHs. With full defenses, they wouldn't be a problem any more until the tower dies. That would let people breathe a little easier and be allowed to stretch their strategies out a little more. Also, before anyone says anything, adding full defenses into the map would not make it play like Hourglass. Whiteout already has enough differences to make stalemates much harder.

However, I'm not quite sold on the new infantry paths. Not that I think they are a bad idea, but because of where they are leading to.

The GDI infantry path has more cover than the Nod path after entering the base. Infantry can use the WF and Ref as cover whereas Nod's base is wide-open because of the airstrip. Secondly, Nod's path puts infantry closer to the power plant while GDI's path puts infantry closer to the refinery. Thirdly, the WF has a back door, the airstrip does not. Basically, I think the path in GDI's base is more useful than the path in Nod's base. Especially since Nod already have SBHs.

Thus my suggestion for guard tower location. It would cover back door of WF, and divide each building from each other.

The tower will not kill, but it will mark enemies for patrolling humvee. Also, WF will likely need mines (Maybe occasionally mix things up and mine the path entrance itself)

[RokumanZA]

I'd like to see full defenses on this map as well. I think a lot of the potential enjoyment of this map is wasted on people camping for SBHs. With full defenses, they wouldn't be a problem any more until the tower dies. That would let people breathe a little easier and be allowed to stretch their strategies out a little more. Also, before anyone says anything, adding full defenses into the map would not make it play like Hourglass. Whiteout already has enough differences to make stalemates much harder.

However, I'm not quite sold on the new infantry paths. Not that I think they are a bad idea, but because of where they are leading to.

The GDI infantry path has more cover than the Nod path after entering the base. Infantry can use the WF and Ref as cover whereas Nod's base is wide-open because of the airstrip. Secondly, Nod's path puts infantry closer to the power plant while GDI's path puts infantry closer to the refinery. Thirdly, the WF has a back door, the airstrip does not. Basically, I think the path in GDI's base is more useful than the path in Nod's base. Especially since Nod already have SBHs.

Perhaps what we need is a Defence version of this map with base defences and an infantry path reworked to bypass them, with the origional still in play (kinda like walls), it would increase map variability as well. I do think hourglass had its merits for base defenses in some cases.

Otherwise I would prefer to see the map stay closer to the way it is now, perhaps with another flank point by infantry as proposed and perhaps a way with ladders to get to the top of the hill from within the tunnels, the tunnels are underused for obvious reasons at the moment

[Vee]

By your leave, I want to express my proposals =)

1. Add AGT and Obi between the defensive walls. In exactly the same as it was on Hourglass. 4 manual turrets and 2 Anti-Air turrets for both team must be left in its place too.

2. Make extra exits from the tunnel behind Refinary and PowerPlant. Exit from tunnel must be unavailable for AGT/Obi fire. Old entrance to the tunnel can be left in place, simply expand the underground network. This will allow to infantry strongly influence on probability of victory despite the presence AGT and Obelisk.

3. It will be fantastic, and unbelievable =) In center of tunnels, under the hill, it would be cool to place a new building. A neutral power station, the team that captured its, will have full damage from the AGT/Obi, the team which is not controlled power station will have only half damage from the Obelisk/AGT.

Anyway, thank you for your efforts. I wish you success =)

[Abraxus]

I'd like to see full defenses on this map as well. I think a lot of the potential enjoyment of this map is wasted on people camping for SBHs. With full defenses, they wouldn't be a problem any more until the tower dies. That would let people breathe a little easier and be allowed to stretch their strategies out a little more. Also, before anyone says anything, adding full defenses into the map would not make it play like Hourglass. Whiteout already has enough differences to make stalemates much harder.

However, I'm not quite sold on the new infantry paths. Not that I think they are a bad idea, but because of where they are leading to.

The GDI infantry path has more cover than the Nod path after entering the base. Infantry can use the WF and Ref as cover whereas Nod's base is wide-open because of the airstrip. Secondly, Nod's path puts infantry closer to the power plant while GDI's path puts infantry closer to the refinery. Thirdly, the WF has a back door, the airstrip does not. Basically, I think the path in GDI's base is more useful than the path in Nod's base. Especially since Nod already have SBHs.

Sry but i have to disagree!

That the map won't get more potential without any SBH thread (which is - btw - a part of the game) can be seen on EKT with 80 mines. Game totally relies on mass artis and mrls spam.

Also, the GDI path has a lot of cover, but the NOD path do as well. Remember that the "small" GT arn't that high and u r totally covered by AS landing pad. And true, the Strip has no BD, BUT the "windowjump" is an even better way to enter a building due to the fact, that you only need a 5 second window to enter plus can defuse mines in cover (while WF back can be spotted easily)

BUT i agree, that most buildings on GDI side are too easy to reach without even slightly shot by the tower.

The guard towers should at least "turn" or give a few shots in the direction you'r base gets attacked from. Also, i would like to see symetric path's on the Silo's side to make the fight around the silo a bit more attractive. (or change silo's side)

[Canucck]

tbh trying to make this map work seems like a waste of time compared to just remaking hourglass. It's just not as good and never will be without the basics that made hourglass work well.

[HappyConscript]

Hey everyone! The post has been updated with new pictures and information. Check it out

Also:

tbh trying to make this map work seems like a waste of time compared to just remaking hourglass. It's just not as good and never will be without the basics that made hourglass work well.

Canucck, please don't post if you do not have anything constructive to say. Furthermore, this map is not Hourglass, it never has been, and never will be. It is a spiritual successor. If you would like to play Hourglass, I believe you know where to find it.

[Action Hank]

Love what you did with the Missile Emplacement. Keeps the spirit of hourglass. Cant wait to try this map. Hopefully teams can focus more on offense and make the map a bit less campy.

Tunnel looks awesome btw

[yosh56]

tbh trying to make this map work seems like a waste of time compared to just remaking hourglass. It's just not as good and never will be without the basics that made hourglass work well.

...because Hourglass wasn't the map that everyone tried desperately to !voteskip...

I'm fairly certain Hourglass went down as one of the most hated, stalemate maps, so saying 'everything that made it work well' is kind of just wrong. I'm sure someone else out here probably thinks that having ridiculous distances to rush while under the gaze of base defences is fun. I'm also sure someone out there liked driving up a hill for a minute and a half, or fighting on very basic side-paths with no real tactical appeal due to how far away base defences could murder half a rush in the time it took you to get under their minimal range.

Yeah sure, Hourglass was so 'great'...it was universally hated or anything. And don't bring up exceptions, as the extreme minority generally could never stop that !voteskip from going through.

[Jack Brace]

I really like the new tunnels, the way it looks and the necessary side tunnels (right now they feel empty and useless). The new infantry pathways are interesting, but as it stands for NOD right now, it'll just be an easier way for SBH to get in imho.

I do think this map can do without flying, unless it's there to battle the mrls/arti effectiveness. In my memories of the old Hourglass, matches were won with mammoth/flametank pushes or sneaky stealth tanks. Infantry was mostly the counter.

-SBH cloak effect is red tinted rather than white/blue

Would personally like that very much = )

[Bananas]

I'm not sure the best way to tackle this map, but the changes you have listed would definitely be worth trying. I think it would play better with the changes.

My one question is the front of the base. I'm assuming the gun/missile emplacements are the ones manned by players. Have these been changed at all? Part of the problem with the map was the emplacements. They hit extremely far and respawned very quickly. It was pretty much a lose lose to kill them. You would take some damage, and they would be back very soon. They also demolished apc and chinook rushes.

[HappyConscript]

Hmm, I'm actually not sure if they have been changed at all in that regard.

I'll check up on that, I believe I have the ability to adjust their respawn time.

[Darkraptor]

RypeL released a Mutator thats increased the respawn time ot the emplacements up to 30 seconds viewtopic.php?f=138&t=74115.

i noticed that the current respawn time is 1 minute ans 30 seconds. Is this a correct observation?

Perhaps it would be better to increased the respawn time up to 3 minutes.

[boxes]

I'm still concerned about Artys being able to be in range of 2 buildings from the side compared to MRLS only being in range of 1 (ex. from Nod's left side, Arty can hit both WF and Ref, GDI left side MRLS can only hit HON.) There's less running around for Nod engies in this case compared to GDI's. When GDI needs to run to WF to PP, they'll be exposed to snipers. Nod on the other hand, just needs to sit in the HoN. If strip is under attack, they just jump out the ref side window of HoN and repair the strip externally.

Again, this isn't fair in my opinion.

Infantry paths are neat, but like Jack Brace said, it's too Nod sided. The WF blocks the gun emplacement. With proper teamwork, a sniper team can cover a SBH nuke that is placed in front of the WF quite easily.

When infiltrating, GDI needs to pray that nobody on Nod sees the turret shooting at them if they're running to the tower or PP.

Not sure if I should say this here, but I'm also hoping that Anti-air towers are going to be buffed. They don't do much damage and their range is pretty short.

I hope the one that is placed on top of the WF is going to be moved. It always gets destroyed when Artys show up.