Veterancy system

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

One of my favorite parts of the older C&C games was how units would gain rank based on kills. It's somewhat accurate to real life, given how soldiers would learn to better utilize their arms and equipment and treat wounds in the field, allowing them to do more damage and fire further.

I'd like to see something similar implemented in Renegade X, if not by default, then by an option server owners can turn on. At each level, you'd do slightly more damage, your guns would have slightly more allowing you to get the drop on enemies and you'd have a bit more health. At Heroic, you'd also auto-heal. To keep this balanced, Veteran units should have chevrons displayed next to their names and should give more money when killed.

This would also further incentivize staying alive for as long as possible. As it stands, there's really very little motivation to be anything but cannon fodder when you're the basic rifleman. They give, what, four credits for killing? If you could gain veterancy for staying alive and be able to do more damage the longer you stay alive, you wouldn't want to die so quickly.

[RypeL]

Yeah this is an idea we are playing arround with. I think you should also keep your level when you die. Just like in MOBA´s. Loosing your rank on death would be quite frustrating, would introduce quite a luck factor and would likely make players play more defensively not wanting to take unnecessary risks.

[Truxa]

I also like this idea, TmX is already on the ball with their stat tracker bot between game sessions. Might be something to look into in terms of single-session wise.

I love the idea to obtain increased skills through fighting. But what about leveling those things up with which you actually kill?

For example: On certain maps, I'll ALWAYS play the tech/hotty defending the base. I don't get the battle experience as attackers would, instead my mines will do the job for me. Lets increase the damage for those mines and not rifles in that case.

[RypeL]

Yes. Reparing/tech activitys should definatly also gain you experience for leveling up so that these classes are still attractive to play.

If you would level weapons/mines though, i think that would most likely cause people to just play one class/weapon for the whole game instead of choosing the class best suited for the situation your team is in.

Instead i think your level should result in an overall percentage value of damage/armor/repairing increase that is applied to all chars/vehicles you play.

[Truxa]

Well, I'm referring to increasing the damage from mines in that sense. Instead of 4 mines killing a single player, now only 3 are needed after obtaining maximum rank. When I suddenly pick a sniper class, I shouldnt be doing more damage with a sniper, it would actually lure me to arty/MLRS driving and zerging the enemy to gain experience fast and then return to the class I want to be OP with

In short: play a Havoc, level a Havoc. Switching to Hotwire -shrug-, level up again to also get level perks with that class. Return to Havoc and still remain max rank.

It stimulates people to actually choose and stay 1 or 2 classes and become good with them rather than unlock all class max-level perks with zerging as 1 class

[RypeL]

... Well, I'm referring to increasing the damage from mines in that sense. ...

Yeah, certainly something to consider aswell.

... I shouldnt be doing more damage with a sniper, it would actually lure me to arty/MLRS driving and zerging the enemy to gain experience fast and then return to the class I want to be OP with ...

Thats why i think you shouldnt gain experience from doing damage. You already get credits for doing damage. But for experience i think you should only get it for a kill, some ammount of repairing or for an assist. An assist could also gain you some experience. An assist could be granted to like the last 5 players that damaged the target by atleast 10% ov its overall health. Killing higher level players would give you more experience. Killing a building should also give you experience.

Giving experience for repairing would make you able to farm experience by just defending your base and repairing yes. But this would also introduce a comeback mechanic . Cause if you are in a situation where you are desperatly hold your base while the enemy is just outside your base spamming your buildings not really getting kills, the defenders would get more experience then the attackers. So the attackers should have more reasons to make the move and attack the base instead of trying to farm in fron of the base.

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

Further idea. Characters and vehicles should get specific effects for veterancy. For example, SBHs and stealth tanks would be invisible at closer and closer distances, and, at heroic, wouldn't be detected by base defenses. When heroic, Sakura and Havoc wouldn't have tracers. There could also be some neat cosmetic effects, like flame tank's flames turning blue.

[Truxa]

Further idea. Characters and vehicles should get specific effects for veterancy. For example, SBHs and stealth tanks would be invisible at closer and closer distances, and, at heroic, wouldn't be detected by base defenses. When heroic, Sakura and Havoc wouldn't have tracers. There could also be some neat cosmetic effects, like flame tank's flames turning blue.

Well, SBH max rank bypassing the automated defenses seems like a bad idea, perhaps when the nerfs are in place. Remember, C&C:Tiberian Dawn AGTs also detected the stanks and the game did not have a ranking system. Visibility, aye, perhaps, OR this: Rank 1 gets the SBH harder to detect mode, Rank 2 gets the SBH speed-up recloaking and in Rank 3(heroic), the SBH is able to spring without losing cloak (if that nerf is in place).

Flamers blue, great idea! Red fire burns less hot than blue fire (if you payed attention to your physics classes you'd know ) so, seeing blue fire gives you that automatic warning of 'hot hot hot hot hot!' instead of mere cosmetics

Oh boy, rank-up perks. Thats a lot of work and needs loads of ideas e.g. for basic classes ranking up isnt easy. Rewards could be like, increased rate of fire and damage for the soldier/officer for each rankup.

[SFJake]

May I say that those ideas are pretty bad. Giving good players an even bigger advantage over time makes no sense. They already get more cash for being alive and are better players, veterancy not only starts being ridiculous but completely unbalances various aspects of the game.

Maybe at least limiting it to auto-healing (and make that not kick in easily), but even then this is a crazy strong ability. Most other ideas in the topic also are severely overpowering traits to just "gain" by doing better.

As much as I like the idea of having those perks for my personal self, this is just not a good idea overall. Whats next, havoc can one hit kill 250 health units? Survive a headshot? You can make the veterancy cosmetic, or give very small benefits, but lets not get insane.

[RypeL]

According to your logic Jake, games like League of Legends and Dota wouldnt work. But obviously they do. And there better players also get more experience aswell as more gold. It just depends on how you balance it out. And dont forget that you get bigger bounty if you are lower level and kill a higher level player. Thats how exciting comebacks can be done. And yes there are enough similiarities between Ren-X and those games to be comparable. But i agree that no unit should get imba ablities like SBH bypassing defenses or something.

[Skeeze]

On tmx we currently are tracking stats an basing ranks on that, though it would be awesome to reveive extra info through rcon like repairs, dmg, beacon disarms, and points

I dont think ranks should give benefits, it doesn't make sense to make the better players better

[Truxa]

On tmx we currently are tracking stats an basing ranks on that, though it would be awesome to reveive extra info through rcon like repairs, dmg, beacon disarms, and points

I dont think ranks should give benefits, it doesn't make sense to make the better players better

It's a veterancy on a per-game-basis we're discussing, not all the games cummulatively

[AkillerNXC]

Yes. Reparing/tech activitys should definatly also gain you experience for leveling up so that these classes are still attractive to play.

If you would level weapons/mines though, i think that would most likely cause people to just play one class/weapon for the whole game instead of choosing the class best suited for the situation your team is in.

Instead i think your level should result in an overall percentage value of damage/armor/repairing increase that is applied to all chars/vehicles you play.

That's how black cell had it in old renegade. You as a player rank up. Veteran, elite, and legendary.

Requiring 1200, 2000, and 4000 points respectively. Also had vet points which vary based on what you do. Ie: repair, kill units (each gives dif vet PTs), disarm beacons, kill buildings etc.

I'd raise the points to like 3,6 and 9k points or something. The bonus varies per vehicle. While chem troopers might have 180 health and armor at legendary vs 150. Havocs had 312 health and 120 armor or something.

Legendary vehs auto healed about as fast as mammys do. Light vehicles were given medium armor when legendary. (Artys armor acted like stanks, havocs were weaker).

It was fun, gave players something to work for. It was my favorite server side mod on any server in renegade.

[cncforever]

I like how the veterancy system works in Tiberian Sun Reborn. I think something along those lines would be great in Renegade X as long as its balanced. For example, extra health / armour, more ammo, more stamina or a slightly improved weapon etc. I think if vetrancy is done right, it will add so much to the game.

When I played Tiberian Sun Reborn as a Cyborg, I used to play more carefully, retreat more and think about what I was doing simply because I wanted those perks.

[Truxa]

Hmm, just throwing it out there: if veterancy is going to be part of the game, then in my opinion it should be like you gain veterancy for almost anything thats helpfull to your team, but as soon as you die, you lose the perks and start all over. This will create different aspects to the gameplay. People are less eager to rush or make themselves vulnerable, so those perks should be balanced to limit that issue OR the perks should instigate such gameplay

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

Hmm, just throwing it out there: if veterancy is going to be part of the game, then in my opinion it should be like you gain veterancy for almost anything thats helpfull to your team, but as soon as you die, you lose the perks and start all over. This will create different aspects to the gameplay. People are less eager to rush or make themselves vulnerable, so those perks should be balanced to limit that issue OR the perks should instigate such gameplay

As for whether or not veterancy should be lost upon death, I think it really depends on how you want the flow of the game to be. Do you want people to be cautious and conservative to keep their advantage? Or do you want them to go all out, arcade-style? Honestly, I don't have an answer. Renegade X is the sort of game where you can do either of these things, depending on your playstyle. (Of course, how effective it will be varies, but that's another matter entirely.) I read a suggestion for it to be points based, so repairing as an engineer would make your pistol slightly less useless.

[Truxa]

I read a suggestion for it to be points based, so repairing as an engineer would make your pistol slightly less useless.

Right but the problem is, you can camp your artillery/MLRS to spam a building outside the base for points, then when you have sufficient points, you'd run back and take what you saved the veterancy up for.

To adress this sort of "abuse", I took some inspiration from Planetside 2, spending your veterancy points into a certain aspect of gameplay. You wouldn't actively put those veterancy points into something of your choosing, but rather by using certain guns, you'd automatically put veterancy into that gun-use.

The result would be, when someone is continuously rushing with shotgunner into the tunnels, kills a few people, gain veterancy, his shotgun would be improved and not the repairgun or sniper or pistol. Just that one class.

[RoundShades]

Just pitching this, but in Renegade's servers that have veterancy, it usually applied a mild health regen and mild health/armor boost.

Now, a mild health/armor boost completely thwarts noobjetting free classes, and a mild health regen can increase chances of surviving a second encounter on way back to base or even surviving an escape encounter.

And if the mild regen applied to vehicles entered, that also would be a great effect over time, it would eventually mean one shot a few seconds ago went away, so you survive one shot more over a lengthy time trading shots.

Damage would be tricker to modify unlike health.

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

Just pitching this, but in Renegade's servers that have veterancy, it usually applied a mild health regen and mild health/armor boost.

Now, a mild health/armor boost completely thwarts noobjetting free classes, and a mild health regen can increase chances of surviving a second encounter on way back to base or even surviving an escape encounter.

And if the mild regen applied to vehicles entered, that also would be a great effect over time, it would eventually mean one shot a few seconds ago went away, so you survive one shot more over a lengthy time trading shots.

Damage would be tricker to modify unlike health.

>noobjet

>free

Havoc and Sakura cost 1000.

Anyway, another issue is, as you pointed out, balance. It would add yet another layer of balance on top of an already very complex game to add in veterancy. When properly done, game balance is a very beautiful thing, like an intricate machine. Even thinking back to Tiberian Dawn, balance was done quite well. Nod got Attack Cycles to compensate for GDI's slow, powerful machinery, they got the Turrets, too, GDI had the Guard Towers to deal with Nod commandos, et cetera.

[isupreme]

Giving experience for repairing would make you able to farm experience by just defending your base and repairing yes. But this would also introduce a comeback mechanic . Cause if you are in a situation where you are desperatly hold your base while the enemy is just outside your base spamming your buildings not really getting kills, the defenders would get more experience then the attackers. So the attackers should have more reasons to make the move and attack the base instead of trying to farm in fron[t] of the base.

I am particularly interested in this aspect of the proposition. Creating more endgame scenarios is beneficial to a rich player experience. Those that focus on teamwork or cooperation are the most fulfilling to me.

This may require experience to remain after death. Or the tendency to want your experience may counter the desire to push into the base.

[GatsuFox]

Bad idea, this isn't a MOBA or an RPG, this is a shooter game. Your stats/rank should be based purely on skill and not grinding for more damage/ammo/hp/speed/stats whatever.

It should be added as a fun factor, sort of like kill streaks/medals in Quake, UT, and Tribes.

Actually maybe that's what this game should have instead of a ranks system is award medals for completing tasks, make them worth credits. Things like repairing vehicles and buildings (maybe a medal per 500 hp healed) or players (medal per 200 hp?).

Maybe a certain amount of medals = higher ranks?

Just don't make it a RPG system, that defeats the purpose of a shooter. Not even CAWADOODY goes that far.