Fixing Bad Mining

[TimrodDX]

One thing I've noticed that is an exceptionally huge problem with the game right now is the way the mine limit is handled. There are a whole bunch of problems, all of which need solutions before the game is playable in a pub setting.

- A single new/bad hotwire or tech can completely screw up base defenses by doing stupid things like dumping 20+ mines in the tunnels on walls_flying or attempting to suicide-rush vehicles with them. Because of the way the mine limit works (removing the earliest placed mines for the new ones) this forces the good tech/hotwire to re-mine the entire base if someone screws up.

- Similarly, Engineer rushes screw up base defense because remote C4 counts toward the mine limit.

- There are also "accidents" of players using proxy mines when they don't mean to, and it's very difficult to track down where those are.

My solution for it is simple.

- Remove remote C4 from the mine limit when the Infantry Barracks or Hand of Nod are intact. Instead, implement a per-player remote C4 limit of 3 or 4. This means that Engineer rushes no longer impact defensive mines. When the Hand or Barracks are down, re-attach remote C4 to the mine limit to allow players to use it as a replacement for mines.

- Designate an area on each map as a "base area", which is defined as the space in and immediately surrounding each of the base buildings. Mines in these areas take priority over mines outside of these areas, so that people can't go mining the tunnel and causing all the mines that are actually defending buildings to fail.

- Add a context-sensitive action for the E/use key for Hotwires and Techs that allows them to defuse mines placed by their team. Doing this would take a second or two in order to stop people griefing with it.

[GatsuFox]

Pretty good ideas. Solves some problems but not all. I endorse this.

[ARC_trooper]

We had that earlier, someone put all the mines at the entrance where no enemy was comming through.. Removing the mines that were necesarry to actually protect the base..

Just a thought, can the mines be linked to the player aswell? That each player has the right to lay 4-5 mines. When they lay the 6th the first one will vanish?

I do like the suggestions, would make the game better i believe

[TimrodDX]

The problem with giving each player a limit for mines is that on maps that don't have an AGT/Obelisk, Engineer rushes tend to happen frequently within the first few minutes. Walls_Flying is a good example, where most players on both teams tend to rush center in order to get an early harvester kill, then push through to the bases and use whatever C4 they have. Usually, there's one person who hangs around and goes Tech or Hotwire ASAP to stop C4 rushes on buildings. With a per-player mine limit, rushes would be much more effective because teams would have to wait for 4 or 5 people to go Tech/Hotwire to get a defense up.

[RoundShades]

I think it might be best to make the ideas conjoined.

How about, make the player have a personal c4 limit of 3, a personal timer c4 limit of 3, and then...

...a personal mine limit of 6, with a team shared mine limit of 18.

This way, 2 techs could still mine the whole base, and even use mines slightly more generous, but some of the mines are linked to you and can't be screwed with while others are linked to the team. At least you have some mines that are failsafe.

ADDITIONAL BALANCE SUGGESTION: Make mines have half their diffuse time. Just more interesting if it were possible to get by mines without having a spare corpse to donate themselves or hoping for the best. They still hold enemies, but nobody has time to currently disarm, by time you disarm 2 you are shot even if in the middle of the tunnels.

[Letty]

Mostly good ideas, except this:

- Designate an area on each map as a "base area", which is defined as the space in and immediately surrounding each of the base buildings. Mines in these areas take priority over mines outside of these areas, so that people can't go mining the tunnel and causing all the mines that are actually defending buildings to fail.

This is a bad thing on many maps. Maps like Field or Goldrush benefit highly from placing outside the base in chokepoints. Mines are how you secure map control.

[rocky44r]

only thing i would do is remove remote C4 from minelimit, putting it on a separate limit.

imho all other options are too complicated and too much work...

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Remote C4 used to be part of the total mine limit in C&C Renegade (except for a select few servers), and i never was a fan of it. i really like the changes suggested, except for the specific mine limit of 6 to every person. not everyone is interested in mining, and if you only can use up 6 of the 30 total mines while no-one else mines, that's a problem. you should be able to run a poll to block players from mining Proxies and Beacons (and add a reason to the poll, just like if you run a poll to kick a hacker but you can't add text to it, people think you want to kick a random guy), just like moderators back in the day were able to with a command.

what i would love to see is which person placed which mine by aiming at them and then pressing the Q button or something.

[TimrodDX]

Mostly good ideas, except this:

- Designate an area on each map as a "base area", which is defined as the space in and immediately surrounding each of the base buildings. Mines in these areas take priority over mines outside of these areas, so that people can't go mining the tunnel and causing all the mines that are actually defending buildings to fail.

This is a bad thing on many maps. Maps like Field or Goldrush benefit highly from placing outside the base in chokepoints. Mines are how you secure map control.

You would still be able to place mines outside base areas, it's just that mines inside the base area take priority when determining which mines to remove once the limit is hit.

[Letty]

But mining inside the base is often a worse idea than mining outside the base on those maps. The last thing you need on Field is to lose the ability to mine the tunnels because someone thought that the barracks and the back entry into the Ref/WF needed to be mined.

[Everdamned]

My suggestion for C4/mine problem is implementing these things:

-Unbind planted remote_C4s from overall mine counter;

-Set 6 planted remote_C4s per player personal limit;

-Teammates (may be engineer classes only if you wish) can see who's planted particular proximity mine when looking at it (if there's lots of useless mines, they would ask creator to stop spamming mines or votekick if he continues);

-Techs/Hotwires can disarm friendly proximity mine with secondary fire if they don't like its location.

[omega79]

nothing should be chaged with mining ...

[Henk]

That 6 Remote per player limit is not a good idea, in a lot of games it's just one Techie/Hottie who mines the entire base at the beginning of the game.

Being able to disarm teammate's mines is a better idea. Also liked that priority idea, but the high priority area should be big, for example, in field, mines can work at the silo, at the sniper bunkers of both teams and tunnel entrances of both teams.

Maybe it's best just to add a couple of low-priority spots, places we're it's not logical to mine, like in the middle of the mountain on Whiteout for example (i've seen it happen), those mines should be removed first.

[Everdamned]

6 Remote per player limit is not a good idea, in a lot of games it's just one Techie/Hottie who mines the entire base at the beginning of the game.

Spamming 30-80 Remote_C4 gives you no noticeable advantage.

You've confused Remote_C4 (satchel charge/radio controlled bomb) with Proximity_Mine.

I mean 1) disable combined counter for Remote_C4 + Proximity_Mine. And make it only for mines

2) prohibit players to lay infinite amount of Remote_C4s (e.g. by per player limit)

[RoundShades]

Remote C4 used to be part of the total mine limit in C&C Renegade (except for a select few servers), and i never was a fan of it. i really like the changes suggested, except for the specific mine limit of 6 to every person. not everyone is interested in mining, and if you only can use up 6 of the 30 total mines while no-one else mines, that's a problem. you should be able to run a poll to block players from mining Proxies and Beacons (and add a reason to the poll, just like if you run a poll to kick a hacker but you can't add text to it, people think you want to kick a random guy), just like moderators back in the day were able to with a command.

what i would love to see is which person placed which mine by aiming at them and then pressing the Q button or something.

Yeah, but I meant a team limit and a player limit seperate. Again, it protects 6 you place from the limit, everyone gets that leeway, and it still allows a larger limit that is shared by the team.

Also, the bonus to that, is that a tech overmining would replace just his own from his own limit. Or, a tech needing to use a few in self defence in the tunnel or whathaveyou, just use his own limit.

[DrJones]

As mentioned before, I think a secondary fire option to the repair gun which rapidly removes friendly mine HP is the best solution to fix this issue, it will allow engineers to remove old mines in already destroyed buildings as well without remining everything.