Blackhands and Nukes Overpowered

[CatDespotism]

There is just no way to counter the enemy from spamming nukes everywhere when they can infiltrate so easily with ex. blackhands.

It happens every game, and playing as GDI you basically lose a building or 2 in the beginning because of nuke spam with this combo.

[Moerfi]

Grab 2 or 3 players that like teamplay, pick hotwire and place mines at the entrances, done

I think base defending is the most fun part of the game, no matter what faction im in

[lazy5686]

Grab 2 or 3 players that like teamplay, pick hotwire and place mines at the entrances, done

I think base defending is the most fun part of the game, no matter what faction im in

Entrances are larger than many maps in Renegade and SBH are harder to see...

[Moerfi]

Grab 2 or 3 players that like teamplay, pick hotwire and place mines at the entrances, done

I think base defending is the most fun part of the game, no matter what faction im in

Entrances are larger than many maps in Renegade and SBH are harder to see...

K entrance was maybe the wrong word, i meant doorways

Any yeah, they are hard to see, but if someone places a nuke the sbh is sitting near it most of the time to defend it

[cirex]

There is just no way to counter the enemy from spamming nukes everywhere when they can infiltrate so easily with ex. blackhands.

It happens every game, and playing as GDI you basically lose a building or 2 in the beginning because of nuke spam with this combo.

The real problem is the amount of new players, there are tactics to counter sbh's but they require more teamplay and more map knowledge.

[CatDespotism]

place mines at the entrances, done

They NEVER place their nukes inside, some go to extreme lengths and parashoot out of helicopter and place it on top, while stealth. All servers with 50 players have this problem. I don't remember the original game having this issue.

Even with people in base, its impossible to disarm several beacons that are being defended by SBH at different corners/buildings at the same time. 1-2 beacons can be dealt with easy sure, however you guys aren't playing on large servers where it amounts to SPAM. Face it, having beacons placed constantly near buildings is NOT balanced especially since GDI don't have this quick ability. I don't understand how you guys can even think this is fair, its a super cheap tactic.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Guest

[TigerXtrm]

SBH and nukes are easily countered if you have a few players dedicated to defending the base. Especially on maps without base defenses this is a basic must. If everyone is out attacking the Nod base then you will find yourself nuked to shit.

The second you have enough credits you mine up the base, all entrances and more importantly all ramps leading to roofs. WF especially. If you have a small strikeforce to comb the base for beacons (and have a team that actively uses the chat to tell you when they found one) it shouldn't pose a problem.

[TotemAatz]

Problem right now is that people don't always communicate making you often run all over the base to even find the nuke to start disarming it, and usually when you find it, there is usually 15-20 sec left.

[TigerXtrm]

Yeah, but that's just a matter of people (re)learning how to play. Set the right example and people will starting copying it soon enough.

[Harlot]

Stealth Blackhands are generally stopped by auto towers, the big problem with them and nukes is:

-When people use aircraft to land on unreachable roof part of buildings and place beacon there.

-People with speedhack planting nukes <- this is what usually happens when you see nukes/ions getting spammed.

-Blackhand weapon is hitscan on top of doing decent damage, a seasoned FPS player will win any 1v1 encounter vs another player of similar skill unless if that other player also is using a powerful hitscan weapon (shotgun at close, sniper, particle cannon) or grenade launcher.

[Noodlesocks]

As time goes on, people will learn what to do when they hear the beacon announcement and how to deal with the infiltrators. Communication is key, all it takes is a tap of the Q button to tell your team what building the beacon is on.

[JacksonMike]

Even defence structures can't stop you. For example on map Goldrush I managed to get past defences and nuke a building. This invisibility is a big advantage, plus laser rifle is very good against infantry and vehicles. It's fun to play this class, but it is a bit overpowered atm.

What I don't get it is how people manage to place ion canon beacons in Nod base with defences? Everytime i get close to Nod base, obelisk insta kills me.

[SFJake]

Stealth Blackhands are generally stopped by auto towers, the big problem with them and nukes is:

-When people use aircraft to land on unreachable roof part of buildings and place beacon there.

-People with speedhack planting nukes <- this is what usually happens when you see nukes/ions getting spammed.

-Blackhand weapon is hitscan on top of doing decent damage, a seasoned FPS player will win any 1v1 encounter vs another player of similar skill unless if that other player also is using a powerful hitscan weapon (shotgun at close, sniper, particle cannon) or grenade launcher.

First, I'll start here. The laser gun is absolute garbage and gets beaten by the pistol, I've never had any trouble dealing with a stealth black hand so far.

Second, I feel like the proximity mines are stronger than before. All vanilla maps do fine against stealth, but they do require good mine placement.

Goldrush is probably not too vulnerable to stealth when well defended, the back entry is just TOTALLY undefended so it absolutely needs good mining.

Lakeside however seems like the most problematic new map, but that one if you ask me is just awfully designed. The guard tower are really terrible sometimes and just don't aim properly. So in lakeside as GDI, expect stealth to have the easiest way ever to go anywhere.

Its also true that there might be places nukes can be placed right now that they simply should not be able to. If I can't just walk there from the ground, then the nuke should not be allowed there. There should be systems to prevent this.

I also happen to think that the game could use more features to counter stealth in general, such as motion detectors.

[omega79]

Thats Renegade!

I have the feeling in RenegadeX the SBH is far more visible than in the original ...

so in fact it got more hard to SBH nuke ...

but again ... SBH nukes are part of the gameplay ... even if they can be a pain in the butt

[R315r4z0r]

In general, SBHs aren't that hard to counter unless Nod coordinates a multi-SBH plant. But usually it's just a solo SBH.

It only takes a few people to counter them. So if you're whole team is in the field and a SBH nukes your base, that's not the SBH being over powered, it's your team leaving yourselves wide open.

The laser rifle is pretty beast as it is, but it's not unbeatable. A few people posted in the base to defend is enough to counter a SBH.

[TotemAatz]

Thats Renegade!

I have the feeling in RenegadeX the SBH is far more visible than in the original ...

so in fact it got more hard to SBH nuke ...

but again ... SBH nukes are part of the gameplay ... even if they can be a pain in the butt

If anything it's easier to SBH nuke, last match I did, I nuked 3 buildings because what seemed like lack of understanding and teamwork, I even hijacked the enemy vehicle they left trying to find me after I blew up the WF. Server got kinda deserted after that....

[Harlot]

First, I'll start here. The laser gun is absolute garbage and gets beaten by the pistol

You do realize the the pistol is one of the best anti infantry weapons out there right? It's hit scan, semi auto, perfectly accurate and kills with 4-5 shots to the head. The only drawback is that the bullets vanish past certain range. A good SH can kill you in 2-3 shot bursts, easier than using the pistol. You've probably just been killing poor SH players or ones who were focused on doing other things than killing you.

[HaTe]

Add a PT door to the back of the bar that opens up a door to a PT. The opening of the door takes 5 seconds (by pressing "E"), and the door is held open for another 5 seconds. It then closes, and you are forced to open it up again if you would like to use it again. Just move the logo on the back of the bar down a bit and have the logo be the door that opens up to a small version of the PT.

It's not using the pt through a wall. It's not too advantageous. It will help stop many SBH nukes to the bar and buildings near the bar. It's a good compromise to not using a PT through a wall, since SBH nuking is undoubtedly more successful to the outside of buildings.

[SFJake]

First, I'll start here. The laser gun is absolute garbage and gets beaten by the pistol

You do realize the the pistol is one of the best anti infantry weapons out there right? It's hit scan, semi auto, perfectly accurate and kills with 4-5 shots to the head. The only drawback is that the bullets vanish past certain range. A good SH can kill you in 2-3 shot bursts, easier than using the pistol. You've probably just been killing poor SH players or ones who were focused on doing other things than killing you.

I've never seen anyone do that much damage with that weapon including myself. mall clip doesn't help the gun either. The basic weapons are more threatening and reliable.

[TotemAatz]

First, I'll start here. The laser gun is absolute garbage and gets beaten by the pistol

You do realize the the pistol is one of the best anti infantry weapons out there right? It's hit scan, semi auto, perfectly accurate and kills with 4-5 shots to the head. The only drawback is that the bullets vanish past certain range. A good SH can kill you in 2-3 shot bursts, easier than using the pistol. You've probably just been killing poor SH players or ones who were focused on doing other things than killing you.

I've never seen anyone do that much damage with that weapon including myself. mall clip doesn't help the gun either. The basic weapons are more threatening and reliable.

imo it should get bit faster rof and clip size, however you can kill a soldier with it easy.

[Soldieroffate]

SBHs were much harder to counter in old Renegade since you needed a lot of map awareness to actually find them. And since engineers/techs/Hotwires are anything but defenseless now with the new sidearms...SBHs will have their work cut out for them.

[TheGroundsKeeper]

Problems are really the player cap atm, this issue were non existent in the ond 120player games

[omega79]

Thats Renegade!

I have the feeling in RenegadeX the SBH is far more visible than in the original ...

so in fact it got more hard to SBH nuke ...

but again ... SBH nukes are part of the gameplay ... even if they can be a pain in the butt

If anything it's easier to SBH nuke, last match I did, I nuked 3 buildings because what seemed like lack of understanding and teamwork, I even hijacked the enemy vehicle they left trying to find me after I blew up the WF. Server got kinda deserted after that....

must have been the other team not taking care ...

stealing is easy now cuz of the huge amount of fresh meat who do not know the basics yet

in general a SBH is more easy to see, I see them more easy now than in classic renegade

the laserrifle has an insane spread, makes it very useless imho

and hotwires/engis can carry sidearms like tiberiumrifle ... those kill any infantery in seconds due to the splash

[Daedhart]

I am just irritated by this because the SBH can put the beacons in really weird places on the building (like along the cooling tower ridge of the PP). There is stereo sound put out by your speakers, so you can find the beacon on a 2D plane, but figuring out where it is height-wise takes way too long. By the time we find it, its too late.

As soon as some invisible walls are placed to prevent taking advantage of the unintended beacon placement locations, Ill be satisfied.

[Letty]

I agree, SBH nukes aren't that bad alone. The real problem is multi-nukes, especially with airstrike support. I wouldn't be opposed to limiting the # of beacons to 1 at a time. Maybe it's just me but beacons and C4 seem to take longer to defuse now too.

Also nukes in certain places are a problem since you can hide it inside building geometry. I know it's possible next to the refinery silo, haven't really checked other buildings though. I'll do a full check of buildings and report back with any areas that need to be fixed.

For those who are being detected as a SBH from long distance: remember that sprinting puts you on enemy radar.

[HaTe]

Add a PT door to the back of the bar that opens up a door to a PT. The opening of the door takes 5 seconds (by pressing "E"), and the door is held open for another 5 seconds. It then closes, and you are forced to open it up again if you would like to use it again. Just move the logo on the back of the bar down a bit and have the logo be the door that opens up to a small version of the PT.

It's not using the pt through a wall. It's not too advantageous. It will help stop many SBH nukes to the bar and buildings near the bar. It's a good compromise to not using a PT through a wall, since SBH nuking is undoubtedly more successful to the outside of buildings.

[Letty]

Also nukes in certain places are a problem since you can hide it inside building geometry. I know it's possible next to the refinery silo, haven't really checked other buildings though. I'll do a full check of buildings and report back with any areas that need to be fixed.

Couldn't find any other places to hide nukes within building geometry, but I did find that the Factory in air maps has a pit below one of the rooftop stairways which seems to be impossible to get out of. Might want to fix that.

[Valor]

Aside from the hacking and the placing beacons at unreachable areas, I think it's balanced. We also need more mods to be on the lookout for this king of stuff. The main problem now is that new players are unlikely to defend to base so nuking tends to be easy. In the old Ren, even if four nukes were placed at once they were all likely to be disarmed in a 20v20 game.

[Trooper]

As an avid SBH player the best way to counter them is mines. On flying maps mine ramps to the top of buildings, 3 should be plenty because if I run through those mines (and maybe survive) I will have low health and can be killed fast. Further more if you even THINK you walked past an SBH just fire a clip around until you hit something, then follow that something. Most new SBH players will instantly start attacking you, other more experianced ones will try to juke you so be aware of it.

And to be frank I find SBH+Nuke is one of Nods staple strats since GDI's vehicles are much more powerful then Nods and can take a much larger beating. It's an interesting balance mechanic I feel.

Edit: Forgot to add that in original ren placing a nuke beacon meant the entire group of defenders on an enemy team would fan out, the one who found it would spam "defend the [structure]" and the rest would swarm it. Forced some clever nuke placements, but on large pop servers it became extremely difficult to get one off.

It's mainly a matter of most new players learning how to react when they hear "Nuclear Strike beacon deployed."

Also you can hear the beeping of the beacon making it easier to find if you listen to it. The louder it is the closer you are.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Guest

[Volcom]

It becomes much easier as you get better at the game

[CatDespotism]

As an avid SBH player the best way to counter them is mines.

Its always placed outside, where they guard their beacon, mining does absolutely nothing, because its much easier for them to defend their beacon there. Nod may have lower tier vehicles, just not infantry, and this gap doesn't justify SBH + nuke spam at all.

It becomes much easier as you get better at the game

It was never this abusive. What really helped was reducing player count to 40, that is what stopped it.

[R315r4z0r]

As an avid SBH player the best way to counter them is mines.

Its always placed outside, where they guard their beacon, mining does absolutely nothing, because its much easier for them to defend their beacon there. Nod may have lower tier vehicles, just not infantry, and this gap doesn't justify SBH + nuke spam at all.

Finding a nuke that's not on a rooftop is very easy. Rooftops are easier for a SBH to defend, which was his point. Mine the ramp and the SBH loses that advantage.

Seriously though, it's a team effort. Of course it's going to seem over powered if you're the only person who cares enough to check on the nuke beacon. But once you start coordinating with your team, they are pretty easily countered.

[dirtycopgangsta]

If a couple of enemies are running around as SBH's, that means they're effectively USELESS to their team, unless the successfully destroy a building. It's only fair that the defenders invest in a few people who focus on defending.

Right now we have an influx of newbies who will need many more months before learning how the game works, which is good, because that means we're expanding our community.

[omega79]

there is definatly a bug with SBH

today on walls i was SBH, running (not sprinting!!!) behind the BAR.

then a PIC shot at me from the WAF.

the PIC keept shooting at me while I did run around the PP (run, NOT SPRINT)

I got rid of her when i sprinted to the WF roof ... probably cuz the PIC was behind the PP so could not see through the building (at least)

[Daedhart]

there is definatly a bug with SBH

today on walls i was SBH, running (not sprinting!!!) behind the BAR.

then a PIC shot at me from the WAF.

the PIC keept shooting at me while I did run around the PP (run, NOT SPRINT)

I got rid of her when i sprinted to the WF roof ... probably cuz the PIC was behind the PP so could not see through the building (at least)

If it was a bot, that would explain it. They seem to have the strange ability to see SBH's (not stanks) from across the map. If it wasnt a bot, its probably because you were already shot at and your location was revealed.

[omega79]

possible bot then, but can not say for sure ...

i was running for my life and my nuke

but sure i was not shot and not revealed, there was no gdi unit close to me

if it was a bot, they should be disabled as long as this is not fixed

[CatDespotism]

If a couple of enemies are running around as SBH's, that means they're effectively USELESS to their team, unless the successfully destroy a building. It's only fair that the defenders invest in a few people who focus on defending.

I'm talking about more than a "few" SBH litterally 6 of them doing nuke runs, and defending their nukes. On servers with 50+ players it doesn't matter that they are useless, there are plenty of players to cover them. This takes alot of people to defend base from, not just a few.

45 seconds is not enough to disarm 3 or more nukes being placed around the same time WHILE being defended by a separate SBH. This is what I mean by spam.

On some maps it takes at least 15-20 seconds to even run across the base.

[Krevidy]

For all you new players out there. Go hotwire, mine up all the important doorways/entrances. In the original Renegade SBH's werent that big of a deal. There were always atleast 5 hotwires mining doorways, and defending/patrolling the base.

SBH's aren't OP at all. People just need to learn how to play Renegade. Dont go shouting ''OMGNERF0P SBH''. Mine the base.

[Moerfi]

You need to know how a sbh would place the nukes, the places they use the most. you almost need to "think" like a sbh and you can counter them very easy.

Was playing on Lakeside about an hour ago an we just had our refinary left and the enemy team tried to nuke us all the time. Me and 2 other guys had no problem to find, and kill them before they could even deploy the nukes.

[omega79]

I like to play SBH on nod

If i got to GDI I like to play as Hotwire

I always think like a SBH ... and always defende on GDI

on a 50 slot server, you probably need 6 Hotwires constantly guarding the base ...

if you have those, and consider the close spawn after a hotwire died + those who happen to be in base

you should have a good chance to defende all base

the key is to scare the SBH, do not let them plant .. make them run around the base in fear of being uncovered

you also can use an APC to drive around the base ... (but not exit if you found the beacon)

I remember matches where i was driving an APC around the base and having a defuse team on board

BUT if you get 6 SBH to plant nukes on strategic places simultaneous, you sure found a good team!

[dirtycopgangsta]

If a couple of enemies are running around as SBH's, that means they're effectively USELESS to their team, unless the successfully destroy a building. It's only fair that the defenders invest in a few people who focus on defending.

I'm talking about more than a "few" SBH litterally 6 of them doing nuke runs, and defending their nukes. On servers with 50+ players it doesn't matter that they are useless, there are plenty of players to cover them. This takes alot of people to defend base from, not just a few.

45 seconds is not enough to disarm 3 or more nukes being placed around the same time WHILE being defended by a separate SBH. This is what I mean by spam.

On some maps it takes at least 15-20 seconds to even run across the base.

Indeed, that's a balancing issue which, at the time when the original came out, was not foreseen. Maybe Westwood never intended for more than 32v32 in one server. Sbh's are quite dangerous when they get together in a murder and flock into the gdi base.

First we must make sure this strategy is too OP, after which the devs can focus on bringing potential changes.

[wolfrikku]

I like to play SBH on nod

If i got to GDI I like to play as Hotwire

I always think like a SBH ... and always defende on GDI

on a 50 slot server, you probably need 6 Hotwires constantly guarding the base ...

if you have those, and consider the close spawn after a hotwire died + those who happen to be in base

you should have a good chance to defende all base

the key is to scare the SBH, do not let them plant .. make them run around the base in fear of being uncovered

you also can use an APC to drive around the base ... (but not exit if you found the beacon)

I remember matches where i was driving an APC around the base and having a defuse team on board

BUT if you get 6 SBH to plant nukes on strategic places simultaneous, you sure found a good team!

Naw base defense in the old renegade usually consisted of 3 or 4 hotwires and whoever was in the base at the time of the alert. Even if you was in a tank about to drive into the field you turned around and check the closest building, but with 3 or 4 hotties you knew if it was real or fake before you even turned to head back.

[wezdor]

I think the larger problem is the new voices for the announcers. You cannot hear them at all over the sound of the battle, and even if you do hear them, they are not clearly audible enough. Can we please get clearer voices for the announcers, like the original Renegade had? and can we also get a clearer message that a beacon has been placed, like in original? The sky changing, the announcer saying it LOUDLY that a beacon has been planted and the beeping being heard from further than half a building away.

[MusicNote]

In renegade Nukes/ion cannon beacons gave off a sound while they're being deployed,they seem to be completely silent in renegade x until they're deployed. They also seem to have a smaller hitbox than the old beacons.

[SFJake]

I think the larger problem is the new voices for the announcers. You cannot hear them at all over the sound of the battle, and even if you do hear them, they are not clearly audible enough. Can we please get clearer voices for the announcers, like the original Renegade had? and can we also get a clearer message that a beacon has been placed, like in original? The sky changing, the announcer saying it LOUDLY that a beacon has been planted and the beeping being heard from further than half a building away.

Yes, thats the key problem.

I totally forgot about the sky and weather changes, thats actually important.

They really were very well designed in the original come to think of it. I never missed a beacon being placed.

[omega79]

In renegade Nukes/ion cannon beacons gave off a sound while they're being deployed,they seem to be completely silent in renegade x until they're deployed. They also seem to have a smaller hitbox than the old beacons.

like this here

[Daedhart]

I think the larger problem is the new voices for the announcers. You cannot hear them at all over the sound of the battle, and even if you do hear them, they are not clearly audible enough. Can we please get clearer voices for the announcers, like the original Renegade had? and can we also get a clearer message that a beacon has been placed, like in original? The sky changing, the announcer saying it LOUDLY that a beacon has been planted and the beeping being heard from further than half a building away.

I agree. I had to set my EVA announcer volume to 100% and everything else to 20% just so I could hear that an airstrike had been called in on our collective asses.

Also as pointed out earlier, there needs to be the planting sound like in the original.

[wolfrikku]

I think the larger problem is the new voices for the announcers. You cannot hear them at all over the sound of the battle, and even if you do hear them, they are not clearly audible enough. Can we please get clearer voices for the announcers, like the original Renegade had? and can we also get a clearer message that a beacon has been placed, like in original? The sky changing, the announcer saying it LOUDLY that a beacon has been planted and the beeping being heard from further than half a building away.

I agree. I had to set my EVA announcer volume to 100% and everything else to 20% just so I could hear that an airstrike had been called in on our collective asses.

Also as pointed out earlier, there needs to be the planting sound like in the original.

Really the only time I have missed a beacon call is when they spam 4 or 5 beacons at once. Causing the announcement for one to get cover by a update for one of the first ones. I also have all the in game sound setting set to 10%. Also it is good chances are that if you can't hear the alert over the battle your in your not that close to the base to even be of use. Humvees and apc are the only vehicles that might make it back, but it would still be close.

[R315r4z0r]

Having a group of 6 SBHs attack and nuke is not OP. It's teamwork at play.

If you think that it's OP and should be nerfed, then you should also consider 5+ flame tank rushes, mammoth rushes, gunner rushes, and all other rushes to be OP as well.

This is just how the game works. If a team can organize a strike like that, then good for them, they deserve to win.

[Legitsu]

nukes need to cost more

make em 2500 credits

also add a proximity beacon to the engineer/hot-wire to allow detecting of stealth'd objects with in a certain radius the diaspora should be no larger then a MLS but you can carry up to 3

people really need to start thinking outside the box here they want it to be a clone of renegade and that game sucked there is huge potential in this project but people need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to gameplay