Sudden death

[Ban4life]

Edit: updated the list of possible rules.

So Daedhart made a contribution on a different post and said something about a sudden death mode. His idea was that everyone was transformed to a Raveshaw or Sydney and giving their gun a one hit kill on infantry, tanks and mct. Although an interesting idea, the contribution of R315r4z0r made this really good. A sudden death after the time limit expires. Normal time matches seem to resolve in either destroying a base or camping long enough to gain the most points until the time expires.

Adding a sudden death could really make Renegade go to its core. Destroying the other team. Sudden death would be a combination of rules set by the server administration. Keep in mind that the rules can be for either a full game mode, or just a sudden death fight after the timer runs out.

damage

- Double damage to buildings

- Damage is permanent and can't be repaired

- All buildings have half or a quarter health maximum

- Double damage to everything

- Whole buildings are regarded as mct (rockets and shells just do double damage, as they often do less damage to mct's)

- Everyone a rav/sydney with a one-hit kill railgun/personal ion canon.(Daedhart)

+ has one-hit kill on MCT

+ can destroy vehicles in one hit

Spawn effects

- Longer spawn time

- Spawn back in the base when sudden death begins

- No more respawns (R315r4z0r)

+ most kills or wiping out the enemy wins

+ bases are destroyed, essentially making this a deathmatch (Sebqt)

+ could be done in waves. Every minute or so everyone respawns. You win if you win most waves.

*Can give a certain amount of credits to everyone for each wave or all waves altogether to buy units/tanks

Other

- Timer for the sudden death after which the victory goes to the highest points

- The base defences stop working (Sebqt, still have normal credits)

- No power (meaning double credits and no base defenses)

- All repair guns stop working (Rencorner server)

- Beacons have a 10 second fuse

- No vehicles (Sebqt)

- No mines

- Disable stealth

- Sudden death is activated in the last minutes before the time-out, instead of after the time-out

- No more air vehicles

The + are extra rules that would only be good when in combination with that rule.

These are all the rules thought of so far. Some rules might not be as good as others, but a good combination (or cycling good combinations) would make sudden death a great addition. Time outs will get much more interesting and the fighting might get much more intense. Most rules give an advantage to the team camping or advancing at the moment of time out, so a good discussion would be needed if this were implemented.

As you see most of the rules are aimed at destroying the base. Keep in mind that some rules actually make gameplay longer, like double damage to everyone. This would make advancing and reaching a base less likely, making destruction of said base harder. However, it might still be a good idea in some combinations.

In case of lore, it is suggested by Sebqt to make it a sudden death caused by a lightning storm. This can be seen to have different effects throughout the games, showing that some (electronic) things are less protected than others during such a storm. For many rules this would create an easy explanation, as the effects of the ion storm is strange and chaotic.

Many things can also be learned from Rencorner, a server that already has this. I sadly never played with a sudden death mode.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Guest

[Sebqt]

Yeah I like it a lot, and instead of "sudden death" mode flashing it could just be called a Tiberium/Lightning Storm ("Lightning Storm Approaching" 5 minute timer) that knocks out the power plant / power to the base (there go the base defenses) and people will have 5 minutes to get the best equipment they can before the storm hits.

This would be slightly different to people transforming into raves but would seem more fluid and give people time to prepare, "ok save up for sudden death". Sure people would get screwed if they are a basic soldier but it would be a very exciting last 5 minutes to save up credits to be the best you can be for that last push.

So definitely the base defense are removed (storm knocks out power) maybe even vehicles and barracks gone, maybe all buildings and only the vehicles and players on the field survive? Till it's 1 player v 1 player.

I've just realised if it's no respawns it could be boring for those waiting for the end though? Unless they could spectate after death.

[RoundShades]

The options presented are interesting, even if just options in the server itself.

However, for sudden death, some of my favorite and combinations are:

-no base defences and no building repair (sbh vs gunners basically, unless vehicles are already pre-staged for one side or another)

-Buildings take more damage

-No respawns but finishes the game standard otherwise. (so staying alive is more important and kills are heavily effective), possibly without base defences and/or no building repair.

Interesting ideas guys.

[Ban4life]

@ Sebqt: I think Lightning Storm would be a better name, as it is a reason for the difference that fits in the universe. However, for this discussion I'll stick to sudden death(sd)

If I understand you correctly, you want to destroy both bases after the countdown by lightning storm and people have to fight to the death (no respawns), or let all buildings be inactive, but must be destroyed in order to win. It's a good idea, but I'm afraid the Game might be interrupted too much by doing so, as a lot of people will prepare for the event. The way I see it, the sd will be more of an extension to the normal game. The time runs out, and the sd rules are automatically applied. This way less people would go back to prepare and it has a more continues feel. That is my opinion, but that is why we need a discussion.

In addition to the sd rules: an sd timer would be nice to prevent this event from going too long (people who were winning keep sniping all the time). After this countdown, the old points system will determine the winner.

I'm still thinking about what would be the best combinations.

[RoundShades]

In that case, as you said, to prevent preparation, just make it do a mini-restart of game, that way everyone spawns fresh, no advantages ahead of time. Possibly keep base health rolled over from game or whatever.

Only other problem with that, is it would be base class team deathmatch without vehicle factory or whatnot. Should just leave it as base power, so things cost double or whatnot.

[Sebqt]

Yeah I think the continuous would be best, but a storm to disable power plant / base defenses then have everyone with 1 life (no respawn).

The only issue is if it's 40 v 40 AoW 39 people will end up watching the 1 from their side and if it takes time I can see people complaining.

[HaTe]

Sudden death mode is a poll enabled option in certain renegade marathon servers currently.

What it does is it shuts off the power of base defenses and makes buildings unrepairable.

Having no respawn would prove to be a bad idea. Lots of people would just quit and join another server as soon as they died. Since dedicated servers are in place, this is just is not a very logical idea.

Making the whole building act as a MCT would also be sort of silly. All it would take is 3 sbhs timed c4ing the outside of a building and it dies? Seems like a rather ludicrous idea.

The idea is interesting enough that it can work and has potential as a gamemode, but the ideas you suggested need to be more thought out, such as having a 7 second wait time before spawning instead of no respawn. Interesting concept, but you need to do more critical thinking on the ideas.

[RoundShades]

Sudden death mode is a poll enabled option in certain renegade marathon servers currently.

What it does is it shuts off the power of base defenses and makes buildings unrepairable.

Having no respawn would prove to be a bad idea. Lots of people would just quit and join another server as soon as they died. Since dedicated servers are in place, this is just is not a very logical idea.

Making the whole building act as a MCT would also be sort of silly. All it would take is 3 sbhs timed c4ing the outside of a building and it dies? Seems like a rather ludicrous idea.

The idea is interesting enough that it can work and has potential as a gamemode, but the ideas you suggested need to be more thought out, such as having a 7 second wait time before spawning instead of no respawn. Interesting concept, but you need to do more critical thinking on the ideas.

Hey. I play Hardcore Search and Destroy on CoD games. I know how bad people despise playing it, I make few friends because they won't follow me into a game of that. (joking of course)

Still, I see your point. And your reference to other sudden deaths was one of my listings. The top one?

I also think sbh would be too strong if outside buildings acted as mct. Otherwise, its sbh c4ing vs gunner pummeling. Generally, a no repair mode where both base powers turned offline sounds like a good idea. Maybe just the both base powers part even would be a start.

[Valor]

I agree for marathon servers this might be necessary, since I don't believe vehicle shells are in Ren X so no massing tanks above the limit. This will make marathons very difficult to complete.

At the very least, there needs to be the crate that disables the enemy defenses for 5 min.

[Daedhart]

Sweet; didnt think the idea would garner much attention.

I like most of the ideas. I certainly wasnt thinking of it as a way to end a match, but that is an awesome way to implement it. The ion storm idea is pretty cool, too. Maybe just to be safe, make sudden death the 3-5 minutes before the ion storm hits, at which point the game would end (everybody is destroyed, thus ending the game).

Also, Im not so sure about the saving up situation. Thats kinda the reason I specifically said everybody would be a Rav/Syd. Think about it, if sudden death would give everybody one hit kills, a basic soldier would decimate everybody. And sudden death without one-hit-kills sounds kinda boring. Saving up would be pointless since youre going to be a Rav/Syd anyway; and buying vehicles would just give the enemy free points.

So after the game timer runs out, all players are warped back to their base spawns and turned into Ravs/Syds. Then there are one-hit-kills on everything except the outside of the buildings (only on MCTs). Possibly disable base defenses. And if nothing is accomplished after the 3-5 minute limit, the ion storm destroys everything and ends the game, causing a points victory.

[HaTe]

Cod is different. For one, there are penalties for leaving too many lobbies. For two, you spectate per round in s+d, and then continue playing the next round. To have it not repsawn you for the rest of the game would make most people just leave that game. For three, there's dedicated servers here. Meaning communities that would prefer regular members, not server hoppers because of a disliked feature (they want you to stay for the next game too, preferably).

[Daedhart]

Also just thought of this: in one-hit-kill SD, pistols would need to be disabled, too. Im basically pulling this thought from Unreal Tournament. Fitting when you think about it.

[Ban4life]

For the mct building it would not be an sbh fight. I think normal rushes with shit loads of timed/remote c4 would be much better. Sbh's take time before they can put down the c4. Apc and humvee/buggy rushes are much quicker in this mode. Buildings are big, so its easy enough to hide the timed c4 somewhere on the building. Just throwing a shit load of remote does the trick even faster, letting them get back in the apc to time another building. Sbh rushes would just be stupid.

Anyway it was just one lesser idea.

I think the time out sd should continue the game without teleporting back to base. What do you do with the tanks? The characters? Won't people with credits have an advantage? No teleporting gives a more continues feel and does not have these problems. The idea for me is quick destruction of one of the teams. I say within 15 minutes. Enough to mount a few attacks, have a bit of fun and probably destroy the other team, followed by the normal time-out if there is no winner (ion storm hits). 3-5 minutes would be too short. The sudden death is only aimed at one thing. Make a balanced way to finish off either team much quicker than normal. There should be enough opportunity for that. For that matter, you could also disable mines to speed up the destruction process.

I would not do no respawns for that matter, as people will hide even without sbh, thus drawing out the game unless total destruction of the base. This will be boring with no opposing team members as they are hiding.

For me the best time-out setup would be:

- base defences stop working

- double damage to buildings (or half health buildings)

- no mines

-(to make clear, you will not get teleported back to base and you will still respawn when killed)

This setting would open up all kinds of rushes and make destruction much faster. It will be an advantage for the current attacking force, making the first time-out unchanged. You fight as hard as possible for the upper hand.

As a "stand alone" game mode you can go much bigger. Besides the rules from above you might have, you can add more.

No respawn might be better in a few waves and disable the stealth. Kill as many people as possible before the timer runs out. The team with the most kills wins the round and then people respawn. Give some starting credits to spice things up. You could give them 3000 for all waves (total, not each), forcing a choice between high power and basic, or medium power all the time. Set the waves for only a few minutes, enough for the teams to meet and clash for a minute or two, and you will get franetic fighting. Vehicles would still be interesting, as destroying a building cripples the other team for all following waves, making it so much more prized to kill a building. If your vehicle dies, you die yourself to prevent having two lives. Optional is to get all surviving members to keep their units, but that might invoke running back to base when hit. Something you don't want.

One hit ko. matches will obviously limit the weapons to only one weapon. You could give the choice for the weapon to the servers. Flame wars might be fun. The mct's get destroyed easier, but how much easier depends on the weapon of choice.

[HaTe]

I think the double damage would be better off replaced with what rencorner has now. Buildings cannot be repaired, no proximity mines, and base defenses turned off. I also think that there should be a ~7 second wait time after dying and before respawning when the mode is activated, to assure that the attacking team gets the full benefit.

To be clear, you would have this be a normal 35 minute aow game, and then if no team has won by then, this mode's features would be activated? So it would be a mode set in between aow and marathon essentially, since you have that time limit before hand, and then the mode sort of tries to help enforce base destruction, but after an additional 10 minutes (45 minutes total), if no team has won yet, the game ends and the team with the highest points wins? I think it sounds like a good way to split the difference between aow and marathon, personally.

[RoundShades]

I still like all of hate's ideas.

Also, if a current marathon server is using it, then it falls under the category of functional and common. Much like most the changes to RenX like vehicle locking and mine limits and donating.

[Daedhart]

My suggestions were made under the assumption that everybody would get one hit kills and would be auto Rav/Syd. I think doing it this way would justify the 3-5 minute time, especially if the base defenses are disabled. This would also justify the need to be teleported back to base, since somebody might hide inside an enemy building until SD started and then get a really quick one-hit-kill on the MCT.

However, if SD is just going to involve more minor changes like base defenses being down, no repair and double damage, then yes 3-5 minutes seems a little short. In that case, 10 minutes would probably be appropriate. If we are going to go this route, though, Id like to look at some of the ideas critically.

1st, I am completely against any change to the spawn rate (eliminating spawns or just slowing them down). I dont think doing this would be in the spirit of what SD is supposed to be: a way to quickly destroy the enemy base. Slowing down spawns to 7 seconds feels like too minor a change, while slowing the spawns to any degree that would actually affect gameplay would break flow.

2nd, shutting down power also seems counter-productive when the idea of SD is to quickly destroy the enemy base. If everything takes double credits, it would take twice as long to buy an arty to rush with. This would also greatly encourage people to horde credits before SD goes into effect. Base defenses going down would be a good idea, though. Also, doubling the price of all items would kind of screw new players jumping in after SD. (Statistically speaking, this would be pointless to enable along with double damage since it would take twice as long to get a vehicle that you can kill a building with twice as fast, essentially cancelling each other out)

3rd, as said before, this type of SD would need to last somewhere between 10-15 minutes. If it was any shorter, it would not be enough time to accomplish the goal. It is for this reason that, IMO, the one hit kill would trump this because stapling on an extra 10-15 minutes to each match feels like going against the spirit of SD.

So, the two (mutually-exclusive) acceptable ideas to me would be...

Quick SD:

-Everyone is a Rav/Syd

-One hit kills (except on outside of buildings)

-Everybody is teleported to spawn when it starts

-3 to 5 minutes at the end of a match

-Disabled base defenses

Traditional SD:

-Double damage

-No mines

-No repairs

-Disabled base defenses

-10 to 15 minutes at the end of a match

-No teleports

[Sebqt]

I'm sure games would be over quickly after an "Ion Storm" knocks out the power plant / base defenses and has an EMP effect on repair guns (they don't fire), proxy mines and even tanks (yes tanks!), stealthed units become unstealthed as EMP effects the cloaking.

No repairs, no base defenses, proxy mines become inactive, tanks disabled, 15 minute timer. I would like things to be justified by lore / by some sort of event that happens rather than a mechanical push off a button. (hope that makes sense)

But how will anyone win without tanks? Well all it takes is you to get a few timed c4 on a MCT, they can't be removed or disabled, so rush rush rush! Just all out rush their base with infantry to get into their buildings and plant c4 both teams have to do it whilst also thinking about leaving some people to defend? Will they get the balance right in all the commotion?

Sounds very exciting to me!

[Itai795]

Most of the ideas are pretty good.

I think most of them should be implemented to the game, but let the server admin decide which he would want to activate for his server (and when). For example, no base repair might be a good idea for AoW server, but perhaps too harsh for marathon.

As some of you have already said, the SD mode should be switched on fluently, so no teleports or "restarting" the game in any way. Also, it can not change the gameplay itself, like no-respawns.

Another thing should be considered is the ease of implementing the different ideas. Switching everyone to Sydneys/Ravies seems more complicated to me than turning off base-power or disabling repairs. But that's up to the developers of course.

[Ban4life]

So, the two (mutually-exclusive) acceptable ideas to me would be...

Quick SD:

-Everyone is a Rav/Syd

-One hit kills (except on outside of buildings)

-Everybody is teleported to spawn when it starts

-3 to 5 minutes at the end of a match

-Disabled base defenses

Traditional SD:

-Double damage

-No mines

-No repairs

-Disabled base defenses

-10 to 15 minutes at the end of a match

-No teleports

This is how I want to see it. See it as two separate things. Both have some general rules that they can obey, but the content can be switched depending on server preference.

I do have to say that I don't agree with some of the thoughts on the rules. The one-hit kill will make the game more difficult, as every wave of both forces is killed much quicker. You cannot advance as easy, until a crucial point where you shoot a few times better. You get to the next point.... statistically you will get shot and pushed back. One hit kill is good, but it should be thought of the right way.

I totally agree about the spawn rates. For a quick and fluent game, you need to be able to spawn and attack normally. Destruction of a base is the only thing that should be sped up in my opinion. In all maps teams attack each others base regularly, so the chances of a victory by arms is likely when you make the buildings weaker to fire or infiltration.

I (and I think others neither) don't mean double credits with loss of power by this event. That still only happens if the pp is destroyed. Just the base defenses stop working with the sudden death/ion storm. Ion storms have weird effects, and can be seen disrupting some electronics and not others. In TS, bases go without power, but retain the ability to create. Tanks and most field operating units still work, with the exception of all air vehicles. They are all grounded or if airborne destroyed. Only hover tanks survive but lose mobility the full duration. You could argue that the lesser technology to fly the orca's and apache (or the airstrikes and cargo plane) is impervious to the ion storm's effect, while the newer technology had the bad side effects of fusing during an ion storm. That is if you want to stick to the lore. It would also justify only base defenses not working, but still having a normal credit flow. The harvesters did do longer to deposit their cargo. For the sake of some rules like double damage to buildings you can argue that the structural integrity is weakened during the storm. Mines are affected because they aren't shielded against the storm. This will keep both teams operating at full power but with weak bases. Easier to damage and infiltrate. Just some explanations for these rules, but can be applied to most.

I don't think it should effect the stealth units/ all tanks, as that would put Nod in a severe disadvantage. By that logic, their new laser weapons and many other electronically guided things like the rocket launcher and all C4's should be affected.

Another thought I don't agree on is the credits and vehicles/damage that would be 1:1. If you need double the credits, it will not make an arty have half power. The moment you have the tank you can dish out damage the normal way, making only the extra time you needed for those credits a loss.

Not being able to repair your buildings seems way too harsh to me. The attacking team at the moment SD comes into effect, they can nerf the other team with near certainty. This makes a too big advantage to the attacking team. I have to say I have never seen this in effect, so I might be wrong. Still, the defending team should have a bigger chance to still come up on top, despite their disadvantage. I think double damage to buildings and MCT would do that trick nicely, if repair guns still have the same amount of repairs per second. Like I said, it would just increase the chance tremendously for destroying a building, making victory within 10-15 minutes very likely.

Also I gather that the repair guns just don't work? That would disrupt any advancing forces, making it harder again to destroy the base. Just like the one-hit kill scenario.

All idea's should still be implemented. I'll update the first post later. For me the idea is mostly to have the same weapons and same pace everywhere in the game, except at the base. The base is weak and easier to destroy. I will still like it if all tanks are knocked out, one-hit kill personnel, no repairs and all that in a SD. I just think that for a balanced and more or less fair play when SD comes into effect after a timed match, we need only

-Double damage to buildings

-No mines

-Disabled base defenses

-10 to 15 minutes at the end of a match

-No teleports

Edit: removed "no repairs". Wasn't meant to be in this list

The other rules and combinations would still be tremendous fun.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Guest

[Daedhart]

I agree with everything, save for the one hit scenario. Yes Im biased.

Since most people arent snipers, I think the onslaught of the two teams wouldnt balance out. Big, juicy MCTs and tanks, however, get giant please-shoot-me targets painted on their faces.

As a note, I did see somebody specifically say double price for purchases.

[HaTe]

As far as double damage is concerned, there is no need if there is already no building repair ability (No overall repair would also be too strong). That is just too much overkill. The idea is to give the attacking team the benefit after 35 minutes. If they cannot still win in the additional 10 minutes with the advantages of the sudden death, then the point leading team wins. It shouldn't be a means to directly end the game so much as it should be a last chance extra help to finish the game by base destruction.

The only idea that sounds like an actual logical gameplay mode would be the "traditional sudden death," but I prefer to just call it "Sudden Death."

-35 minutes of normal AOW gameplay.

-After 35 minutes are through, the 10 minute sudden death mode becomes active (this could be by an ion storm, a tiberium storm, or however else). The mode activating does the following:

1. Disables base defenses (if any are active at the time).

2. Disarms all proximity mines (does not disable the ability to mine - this would generally favor nod too much).

3. Makes all buildings become unrepairable for the remainder of the game.

The idea is to keep the mode simple, yet successfully split the difference between traditional AOW and Marathon modes. In AOW, people often complain that winning by points is a cheap way to win. In marathon, people often argue that games last far too long. This mode makes the game split the difference between the two. The attacking team at the end gets the advantage, and so if they are losing in points they can either attempt to take the points lead or just win by base destruction. The game won't last too long, but it makes it so that building destruction is the most likely way the game will end.

[ehh]

pretty much^

a lot of these ideas make the game 50/50, even if one team has a whole base and the other team has one building left.

[Daedhart]

I was only calling it "traditional" for lack of a better distinctive term. You have good points; I think testing them would be the only way to really know how they would turn out. As Ban4life says, giving multiple SD options to the server owners would be the best compromise.

[omega79]

i am not for this idea

[Ban4life]

i am not for this idea

That's your right

Can you elaborate? Or is it just a feeling?

As far as double damage is concerned, there is no need if there is already no building repair ability (No overall repair would also be too strong).

Whoops I made a mistake. That rule shouldn't be there. I totally agree with the no repair being too strong (as I said in earlier posts). It apparently works in Rencorner, but for this mode I would suggest a double damage instead of no repair. I'm going to edit it asap.

So I agree with your complete list and arguments for traditional SD, but change the no-repairs to double damage to buildings and we're set!

Only why can you still mine? Why remove the mines in the first place? The SBH's power is relatively reduced, and people probably feel this as a weakness. I think people are not going to waste the last few minutes of the match as an SBH when there is double damage to buildings. If they are one at the start of SD, they will move quickly to take advantage and after that take something more suitable. That's what I would do at least. I think the amount of SBH's will be drastically reduced. Still I see your point and hope that I'm right. It would make that unbalance less powerful. Maybe it will go the other way. The loss of power in having SBH's will make GDI able to march to the Nod base and destroy it. I'm conflicted about this point.

@Daedhart about one-hit kill: I think that overall it would still be a difficult match. You don't need the buildings any more except to stay alive, so the moment you bunker up in one (last) building, say the GDI Ref in field, it would be near impossible to take. The whole thing is a great funnel of death for an attacking party.

[omega79]

I just like it how it is/was in renegade ...

win by points, win by total destruction, win by ped-beacon

I always felt it was pretty balanced ...

okay sometimes it was horrible if your team was not able to get rid of pointwhores and you are under siege,

but that was/is part of the game.

and there are countless times a game turned around in the last minutes/seconds cuz (ie) a final team effort made

a gunnerrush possible to kill the last building of the enemy ... or a single action defeated the pointwhoring team with a ped-beacon ... or a beaconrush ...

i think the endgame should not be modified ...

i heard someone was suggesting a concede option, i hope that will never come either ... that would be horrible!

[HaTe]

People would still be sbhs because of the high player counts and vehicle limit. Just too much of an advantage for nod if mining was completely disabled.

As far as how it is in renegade....there is no server in renegade that exists (meaning with regular players) that is not modded in some way. Rencorner has this as a poll enabled option, and people like it. It's just a separate gamemode, and you wouldn't have to play it of you didn't want to lol. Like sniping servers for instance.

[Sebqt]

It would be interesting to see how servers adopt SD. I have my ideal rules in mind and might implement them should there be a need for another EU server.

[omega79]

i have to admit i did not read the whole thing ...

sudden death sounds like "if the regular playtime is over and no team has destroyed the enemy base >> SD"

if it is a gamemode, okay thats different!

[Sebqt]

That's what I thought Omega, speed up the conclusion of the game to make it less influenced by point whoring.

All out war with no modifications -> Ion Storm hits -> "SD" begins

Possibly no timer in SD because the impacts of the storm itself should make the game end quick?

[omega79]

I feel very comfortable with the regular endgame ...

so i think if it is a whole game-mode (like you start the game in sd) it could be nice

but in regular matches with a "pre-game" and then SD ... well, i not like this idea, sorry

[RoundShades]

I feel very comfortable with the regular endgame ...

so i think if it is a whole game-mode (like you start the game in sd) it could be nice

but in regular matches with a "pre-game" and then SD ... well, i not like this idea, sorry

I was always thinking of it like an option in Bomberman. The server sets it up to either do or don't do sudden death. Also, make it an option to allow vote for it (in case "marathons" come back).

Also, I played RenCorner just the other day, and twice that sudden death happened it wasn't fair (one team was already at another's doorway when it happened). It would almost be worth it to do a "light reset" of the whole game when sudden death start. By which, I mean all people and vehicles die and everyone respawns in base, then sudden death rules start.

[omega79]

omg ... light reset ...

that would make it even worse ...

SD would be like gamebreaking for me ...

and on marathonservers the whole purpose is to have no timelimit, adding SD to a marathon server would be absurd

but they do allow mutators, and who knows UT knows mutators can change the game dramaticly ...

so i am sure some kind of this will come up ... hopefully not on all servers

[RoundShades]

Oh, SD developed from a marathon server. Guess why?

Because some of the most common maps, were also the maps that lasted longest. Field without either vehicle factory happened a lot. Know how long that game lasted?

After 2 days, a moderator got tired of it and force-ended map.

Every time field came up, it would be overly lengthy. Complex was fun, but it ended in 20 minutes usually. Under was always overly lengthy. If you got on occasionally, you wouldn't remember playing another map besides those two sometimes.

This is why they adopted Sudden Death. Because sometimes, if it is Complex then a 8 hr long game is awesome, but when it is field it gets old after you do it twice. Then you need an option to vote to make it end.

AOW probably will always default to 35 minute no SD. "Pro" servers might use SD in AOW, but they are mainly clan ran while community ones will stay without it. Marathon servers will probably always keep it as a vote option by 2/3 vote, because it had to be that way to end games before. (also expensive vehicle spawning without the vehicle factory would help end hopeless games)

I would play AOW with SD if a clan server had it just because I play S&D in CoD and hardcore type mechanics appeal to me. If you went to RenCorner today and played a SD, you would know what I mean. Eventually, games need to end preferably without the server admin deciding to turn off and on server just to accomplish it. Yet, SD in those are unfair because if tanks are already at front of base then they win SD reguardless. Both sides in their base when SD starts then it usually is quite fair.

[HaTe]

A set time (35 minutes) of play before the sudden death features activate would fix the surprise or general advantage that a poll can create.

[ehh]

the rencorner system isnt unfair, it benefits the team that has done the most to win the game.

So in your system if I have a medium and I dont have a wf, my tank is just doing to die, that seems unfair =/

[HaTe]

It's sort of unfair because the winning team/team currently attacking can start the poll and all vote yes, and all it takes is 1-2 people who are waiting for the next map on the other team to also vote yes for it to pass. It's more fair with a timed version because then there's at least full awareness of when it is going to happen, and teams clan plan accordingly. A reset is a bad idea though, teams should be able to use the advantage of owning the field if they planned accordingly and held it at the 35 minute mark.

[ehh]

iirc the vote needs 25 or 50% of EACH team to vote yes.

[HaTe]

Yes but if the team in the losing position is even voting yes at that point, they obviously just want the map to end regardless. A set time would still be the better option...

Edited February 4, 2014 by Guest

[RoundShades]

Eh, yeah, but winning via points is what AOW is usually about.

If it were timed, it would be AOW.

Marathon wise, if it were a vote, it would be in favor of whoever owned the field at that moment reguardless of who has been dominating that game.

However, destroying a tank without a factory IS an issue... Maybe making everything teleport to their respective team's base is better?

[HaTe]

It's only winning by points if either team still isn't able to win by base destruction with the added 10 minutes of no building repairs, disabled mines, and disabled base defenses. There's a possibility it could end in points - making them worthwhile, but the possibility is much lower than regular AOW. It is splitting the difference between aow and marathon.

[Daedhart]

That's what I thought Omega, speed up the conclusion of the game to make it less influenced by point whoring.

All out war with no modifications -> Ion Storm hits -> "SD" begins

Possibly no timer in SD because the impacts of the storm itself should make the game end quick?

Depends on the specific rules. If repairing was disabled, timer might be irrelevant. If not, SD alone might not be enough. I think keeping the timer just in case wouldnt belittle the SD mode. I can see a 2v2 SD going longer than 10 minutes if played right.

[Ban4life]

I'm against teleporting back. It would create a lot of problems for the dev's. Removing and spawning characters is probably relatively easy. Removing and respawning tanks (which might be more fair in most conditions) will be tricky. Where will you place them? Is there enough space? How do you keep the bind/lock bonds to the vehicle owners?

You could do something cool like transporting everyone in by helikopters, forcing everyone out in the base while tank drivers will spawn one after the other and are brought to the base by helicopter too. If a drop-off point is full the helicopter will wait with dropping the occupied tank.

Talking about making things easier for the dev's... anyway my own vote would go to continue the game like normal without any teleportation or resets.

The vote in marathon could also be timed. I mean that the vote is passed (50+% each team has voted, 2/3 yes is a good one) and then a timer starts. SD starts when the timer reaches zero, giving both teams the opportunity to gain the upper hand. This will negate any opposition "because they were losing" to the vote. The arms race that will arise will most likely end up with camping outside a base, waiting until the timer is up. Meanwhile the other team will do anything in it's power to get out of that camping situation. Though camping is most certainly not what is intended, it might be better than the other disadvantages. But as already stated, if both teams vote yes, they want it to end with a bang regardless of advantages.

SD is for me the preferred way in a too long marathon match, opposed to just ending the match. I think it has great potential for both time matches and a whole game mode. Of course it is up to servers to adopt this, as the normal game mode is still great.

[omega79]

okayokay ... i admit ... after 8 hours a map can get old

I remember what must have been the first 2.5 days long match ever

short after Marathon came up ... everybody had a blast (i believe zunnie and fobby must have been there aswell)

I think I remember Zunnie in a MRLS on field

That game got ended by a servercrash

But it really must have been the first game what took that long ... these days it must have happened more often

so after all, a SD is way better than a concede

[bizkid23]

If one team can't beat another one before the very generous time limit then it's time to scrub everyone out and try again. Adding sudden death will only lead to teams that dominated at least a little bit losing nearly half of the time in sudden death, mostly by pure luck.

[Ban4life]

If one team can't beat another one before the very generous time limit then it's time to scrub everyone out and try again. Adding sudden death will only lead to teams that dominated at least a little bit losing nearly half of the time in sudden death, mostly by pure luck.

Well the current consensus as far as I can see is that it would favour the current attacking team. This means that the team with the most power at the start of sudden death will have a bigger chance to win, not the one with points. My hope is that the team that has the most strength at the end of the game shows that they would be the winner after this time limit, so they have the advantage. This hopefully makes taking out strategic targets when nearing the time limit much more prominent instead of camping. If you still lose, the other team just proved stronger. Think about games that you are the underdog all the time and suddenly you strike back magnificently. You can argue that it wasn't deserved or anything, but the result is there. You won despite being crushed all the time.

So all in all it's not luck, as everything but the base destruction is going normally, at least in my version of the SD. You don't attribute the whole game as luck do you?

In the end it is up to servers, and I think I will enjoy playing on these servers.

[ErroR]

I think sudden death is a good idea as a server option but it shouldn't be too radical in any way.

I support the non repairable buildings idea because it would make rushes and defense much more intense and viable, with results being irreversible and meaningful.

However I don't think there should be damage multipliers as buildings go down pretty fast anyway if unrepaired. For example a gunner can take out like 10% (or was it 20%?) of a building's health in one clip so multiple gunners would deal a ton of damage to them before someone even notices and fights back.

Damage multiplier to infantry would just be confusing and would encourage more camping, running back to base and hiding instead of trying to push into the enemy's base.

I'm not sure about base power going down though, it would kind of make going for the powerplant and base defences kind of pointless. At the same time it would make infantry more viable however it would also give nod the upper hand because of sbh nukes. Maybe keep the base defenses up but instead halve the price of beacons and/or the time it takes for them to go off?

No respawn is a terrible idea and shouldn't even be considered because it's not in the game's style. It would also cause hiding somewhere and nod would get the upper hand again because of sbh. Take a cloak and dagger spy hiding in arena with caps disabled in tf2 for example. It should focus on base destruction instead.

I also don't like the idea of not having any mines as it would make it to easy to waltz into an enemy's building and take it down. To compensate instead someone would need to patrol the base a lot instead of being on the offensive, which should be the point of sudden death.