Quinc3y
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Posts posted by Quinc3y
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2 hours ago, djlaptop said:
high playercounts account for many of the stalemates and long games.
On 23.03.2017 at 1:27 AM, CampinJeff said:flawed map design
These two combined, pretty much. Few small things here and there, but these two are the main reason why so many public games turned into boring slugfests.
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5 hours ago, Norc said:
Teamwork is more important than individual skill.
3 hours ago, Ryz said:This game isn't (in many cases) about individual skills
Honestly the more I play PUGs the more I think they actually ARE about individual skill.
Obviously it feels nice to play in an organized team - dedicated defender, dedicated sniper, dedicated repairmen and tankers. Clear comms on teamspeak is also very helpful & pleasant to play with. Other than that, there's not much commanding and teamwork needed. Just get tanks and kill the enemy harvester while protecting your own, works 90% of the time.
But this is all for nothing if the enemy team has better players. No matter how good your teamwork is, if the enemy team has an insane sniper that you have no counter to, if the enemy team's infantry will win 1v1 duels more often than your team's or if the enemy team's tankers are more effective than yours... you will lose. Organization won't help. Tricky tactics/random rushes will fail most of the time.
After all I think this game is about how much credits you can accumulate and how effectively you can use them. Players like Xeon or Denuvian will buy an arty for 450 credits and with the help of a 350 credits technician they destroy 3 meds, 4 harvesters and 2 hotwires worth 3100 credits +4 harv dumps. And they will accumulate tens of VP, while giving none to GDI. Meanwhile poi will buy a Sakura for 1000 and kill infantry worth 5000 before going down herself. How do you counter this with organization and teamwork? Against a sniper, you literally can't do anything. Against tank mass you can try to group up with 8 meds and push out at once, yes... but count the amount of credits you will need and how many meds you will lose in the process.
That's just a general theory, obviously there are some cases like when a 350 credits hotwire manages to sneak in and destroy the priceless airstrip and turn the game around. But then again, that's about individual skill (and, in this case, luck) and not teamwork.
tl;dr: I think balanced teams are more important than organized teams and a team with better individual players will win over a theoretically organized team with lower skill. Which btw makes people who keep complaining about lack of organization and "no plan" when their team is just getting blatantly outplayed individually (whether in pugs or public games) even more annoying to me.
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About 80% of my deaths on Walls - whether I was playing sydney, sniping, repairing or desperately sneaking - were to Jeff's apache/canuck's black hand sniper or LCG / poi's Sakura or Raveshaw
I'm not saying the rest of Nod played bad, but these 3 players had the most impact.. along with the repairmen on plateau.
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Ah, I probably should have also mentioned jeff, who's aim is comparable to bibi's and canuck's and who's apache was wrecking us on walls. So that's 3 against 0.
With all my respect & sympathy to ks.ol (of which I have a lot), he's nowhere near these 3 aim-wise.
I complained during games because 1) I wanted to rebalance before PUG ends, 2)I was annoyed (sorry) 3) I wanted to highlight how stupid the rule that some players are not allowed to play some classes are. Yes, I think the "deal" we had was stupid for the reasons you mentioned. A much simplier fix would be to swap canuck to our team...
Also, players with amazing aim don't have to snipe to give their team a big advantage. It's enough if they run around with a patch/lcg/officer (not to mention mobius/mendoza) or drive a buggy/apc/apache. In the beginning of the game, even soldier is enough. Cuz how are we supposed to win the first harvester battle on walls if we face jeff, bibi and canuck and have no answer to them? Obviously each of them will take down several enemy soldiers before going down themselves.
"You didn't lose to snipers" - see last paragraph above. Well goldrush was mostly all right... but even before the sydney rush, we were already pinned in base. It would require a lot of struggle (or luck) if we actually wanted to win that one at that point.
But I wanted to play the game
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One of the worst PUG experiences that I had.
Teams imbalanced from the start - for some reason two players with the godly aim are put in one team with no counter on the other team. I point that out at the start to avoid this situation but am assured all will be fine.
Then when my team gets outplayed and I am raped by these two and complain about it Im told by enemy team to "stop bitching" and that im "mad cuz bad".
Ridicilous shit.
Zero team morale and we couldnt even take control of field with 3 players advantage. Felt terrible.
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6 hours ago, CampinJeff said:
Who was commanding on sunday?
I was commanding the losing team.
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Whiteout
GDI loses the harvester battle and gets stomped by arties while bibi snipes every GDI repairman who leaves a building.
Mesa
Nod loses the harvester battle, but still manages to take control of short side and take ref down to 20 health. Quickly gets pushed back by meds & mrls, loses 2nd harvester and while Nod refinery is under great pressure, hotwire takes down PP. 20 headshots by bibi later, Nod base is destroyed.
Lakeside
Flametrooper rush destroys barracks while both harvesters survive. GDI is left without any hotwires & mines for the whole game. Orca rush destroys refinery while stank rush gets spotted & dealt with. A few orca/apache rushes/SBH nukes later GDI is left with only 1 AA tower while Nod still has 2 turrets and a sam site by strip and HoN is badly damaged. One more orca rush destroys HoN, but meanwhile something (SBH?) destroys WF and it's down to strip vs. ref. GDI rocket rush gets intercepted by 5 apaches who in turn get intercepted by more rocketmen. Finally, Nod went for ground vehicles and destroyed GDI ref while another rocket rush was approaching airstrip.
3-0, ~10v10.
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I liked the vehicle warfare on Tunnels. The field is really nicely done, no side with any sort of advantage. No easily-campable spots for arties like on most maps. Killing the harvester is neither too hard nor too easy. Can't really lock any team in base, because of 2 entrances. It's been a while since I enjoyed driving my med this much.
It's just the opposite of Under, when I think about it. There I just really have to force myself to buying a tank...
A small fact I found interesting: on Under, just before airstrip got destroyed, I got a marksman spy. Since I thought it's rather useless in the current situation, I decided to just run in the Nod base from the main entrance. I made it in and that was just when airstrip started going down. I managed to kill one of the technicians running to airstrip and it barely - really barely - got overpowered and destroyed. I can bet that if I hadn't gotten that crate, made a fast decision and hit these few shots, airstrip would have survived (at least for a while, since Nod's situation was grim by that point). Details, luck, luck, details.
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Why's that?
Ok, Patch > LCG, but SBH > gunner. Also Mendoza and Mobius relation is similar to Chem and McFarland. Mobius has high dps, but lacks range and speed compared to Mendoza and it's the exact opposite for Chem vs. McFarland: the latter is more dynamic. I'd say infantry balance is in a really good state right now.
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Thanks for the recap, Luhrian.
Really good PUG. It was weird to me that we first got stomped by mass tanks on Walls and later that evening we stomped the enemy team with tanks as well on Mesa. May it be that GDI tanks are so much better? Hmm.
Lakeside was the best game and a very close one. Had GDI destroyed Airstrip with that push where they sacrificed all tanks to take it down to 3 health, they would have probably won. Nod forcing a comeback despite being on a big veterancy and economic disadvantage felt amazing.
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I've been getting those long freezes on Walls every now and then ever since I can remember. Yes, it's something with exploding vehicles.
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Im not home this weekend
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Islands FLYING! (sort of)
Two flametroopers swim to GDI ref and infiltrate it unnoticed before it even gets mined. It gets destroyed and GDI surrenders. Hopefully we can test the flying element of Islands next PUG, looks nice if you ask me.
Tunnels
Both first harvesters survive, but Nod manages to dominate the field with arties and light tanks early on. They get pushed back at ~10th minute, but before GDI can lock Nod in the base, a stank rush reaches & obliterates GDI base,
Tomb
Long game. Even vehicle fight most of the time, with Nod having a slight advantage on the harvester side which gave them the economic advantage. Stank rush destroyed GT and opened the GDI base to SBHs. Triple nuke on bar + wf + pp destroyed the pp and GDI slowly crumbled. A sneaky hotwire almost managed to destroy Nod ref, almost being the key word... another stank rush destroyed WF and it was game over.
Complex
A miracle 3 gunners + 1 deadeye rush through the tunnel destroyed HoN. Nod responded with stank rush that took barracks down to 20 health. Had they destroyed bar, the game would have lasted a lot longer, but instead Nod base crumbled to mass meds and poi with a ramjet.
3-1, balanced teams, one with more luck than the other. Good games!
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Some will argue that the punishment for losing a building should be harsh so that it feels rewarding for the team that destroyed it and so that no campfests & dragging the game to infinity occurs. And some will argue that the punishment for losing a building should be light, so that the losing team still has the motivation to play & chance to win and because comebacks are fun and exciting.
Both are right and I think it's about finding the golden mean.
I also think that right now the punishment is too harsh, for one reason: veterancy. Now if you lose a building you not only get punished by not being able to buy certain units/having lower income, but you also fall behind in veterancy. Especially if you lose a building within first 10 minutes - that results in a team of recruits without a building fighting against a team of veterans. This is also caused by lowering the required amount of VP to advance a rank, which I am still against.
I am rather against the idea of building reconstruction - sounds boring, it's not intuitive and never been a part of the Renegade series. I might change my mind tho if I see it work.
Instead I would suggest implementing one, some or all of the following:
- decreased amount of VP awarded to the team after destroying a building
- increase amount of VP needed to advance to the next rank so that a team that destroys 1st building doesn't instantly become all veteran
- after losing HoN/bar, enable all infantry for double the price except for adv. engis, 1k snipers, Sydneys/Ravs and Mobiuses/Mendozas. I am not sure about SBH.
- after losing WF/strip, enable all vehicles for double the price except for apaches, orcas, mammoths and stanks. Actually we could consider removing the airdrop rules and just let players buy their vehs whenever.
- after losing ref, it should be 1.5 credit/ second instead of only 1/second.
Losing PP and base defences is fine as it is now.
Implementing all would probably be too much and would lead to the punishment for losing a building being too light. But some of them would feel very welcome.
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Pretty one-sided PUG.
Arctic Stronghold
GDI early gunner rush failed, but they still took control of the field with ease. 10 minutes in, Obelisk went offline and meds moved in Nod base, a hotwire used the chaos to sneak in and destroy PP. Another med rush followed and finished the Nod base off.
Field
Pretty much the same. Nod dominating for most of the game, both on field and in the tunnels. At one point Nod tanks moved in and a tech used the chaos and with the help of smoke grenade destroyed GDI ref. After that mendoza rush destroyed barracks and it was game over.
Walls ground
A little closer one this time. Draw-ish for the first 15 minutes, then 3 SBHs took WF down to 9 health. But then the above scenario happened again. GDI took the intiative, with their snipers getting a lot of frags and crushed Nod.
Islands
GDI locked in base from the very first moment Nod could get arties. SBH planted nuke at front of WF and all the tanks moved in to cover it, boom. Then Nod went for 10 LCG rush that got destroyed by 10 mobiuses who in answer got destroyed by 10 mendozas. And that was the highlight of the PUG! GDI base finished off by flame tank rush soon after.
4-0, ~18v18.
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11 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:
Your snipers on Complex had a huge impact though, particularly after WF went down
That's right, our snipers
And I was one of them.
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18 minutes ago, (Ger)Luhrian said:
Lost the Connection again...
I am sorry guys.
We finished them off soon after, so don't worry.
Crash Site
Nod crushed by meds within 15 minutes, not much to see here. Nod was down to 10v12 for most of the game, because of players AFKing.
Walls
Good game. Nod with advantage early on, killing the first 3 harvesters, SAM sites and dealing perma to refinery, WF and PP all with arties and SBHs. This gave them the veterancy advantage for the rest of the game. GDI ref is destroyed first, to mass arties. But 30 seconds later Nod ref fell victim to a hotwire. About 15 minutes later, HoN was destroyed by another hotwire. But GDI didn't manage to dominate the game, Nod slowly took control of the plateau and apache rushed & destroyed barracks. Soon after the rest of GDI base was finished off by apaches and stanks. Not much GDI could have done with the lack of credits and veterancy disadvantage.
Complex
Another good game. At ~15th minute mark 5 meds drive in the Nod base, while 2 stanks hit ref, SBH nukes WF and a tech infiltrates bar. All buildings survive, but most take perma damage, including barracks that went down to 5 health. Soon after another stank rush destroys WF. Gunner rush by GDI fails and GDI went on the defence for the rest of the game. GDI ref and barracks fall to SBH nuke with APC & infantry cover.
Team jeff 2-1 team Quincy
I liked this PUG also because snipers didn't have much impact. I think I didn't get sniped once the whole PUG, even tho we played sniper-heavy map like Walls and Complex. Feelsgoodman
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True that
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4 minutes ago, CampinJeff said:
The bottom part of the dam, the area around the river is very uninteresting. It doesn't lead anywhere and the field also isn't very inf-friendly. Also a ridiculous amount of places for snipers to kill repairs
The bottom part of the dam is where the MCT & passage to the side tunnel is. And where you can enter the dam from the vehicle area. Snipers: yes, the dam is nice for them. The field is similar to Field's field. Silo area, river, some rocks for cover. It's not that bad.
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My feedback:
Positives
The dam system and the infantry area. The idea with the capturable dam is original and it adds a strategic element. The dam itself is big, has many paths to use and objects to hide behind. The connection to the vehicle area is nice as well. There is only one problem about the infantry area which I will get to later.
Graphics. The map's beautiful, one of the best looking in the game if you ask me.
Negatives
ONLY ONE VEHICLE ENTRANCE. And a very tight one, at that. I've already complained a lot about such maps... I feel like maps that have only one vehicle entrance per base belong to a different category, The gameplay on such maps is so different. Can't do a vehicle rush (except for maybe stanks, but that's difficult as well). Can't sneak in via main entrance as infantry. Can't surprise the enemy at all. Just look at maps like Islands, Xmountain, Under or Reservoir and compare their intensity with Volcano or Tomb. The latter are so much more thrilling to play. Even worse, on Reservoir you don't really benefit much from the field control, because you can't even kill the enemy harvester. Talking about which....
WAY TOO MUCH CREDITS. After 1 hour players on both teams had over 10k credits on average. The harvester route is really short and every dump is 300 credits. The silo feels completely unnecessary and it's irrelevant who has control of it.
Base defences. The gameplay is already stale and it's difficult to sneak into enemy base, especially on a PUG where both teams have dedicated defenders. And the dam system kind of helps with defending, too. I don't see the purpose of base defences.
Only one infantry exit. If the enemy team has better snipers or generally players with better aim, they can just lock you in your base on the infantry side.
No interesting rushes possible? I'm not entirely sure about this one, but yeah... looks like a consequence of what I mentioned above. Because of the choke points at the vehicle entrances to both bases, you can't really do a proper vehicle rush (unless you miraculously sneak in some stanks). I didn't see any spot for rocket rushes, because both bases are surrounded by rocks. Only one infantry exit makes it super hard to suprise the enemy, because most likely they will see you coming early. Finally, base defences.
Honestly, right now the map looks pretty much like Islands with base defences and with a more interesting infantry area.
My suggestions on how to fix it:
The one major fix needed is to add one more vehicle path. I know this is a lot of work and a big change, but I don't see this map among top maps with only one, tight vehicle entrance like it is now. There are some simplier fixes that would make the experience better though: remove base defences. Replace silo with a medical centre (because infantry is meant to be important here, right?). Open the second tunnel (the one near PP), so you can leave your base through it as well. Decrease harvester dump to 200 credits (like on Islands). Maybe remove some rocks to make HoN and WF more exposed as well?
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I will make a different thread so we can discuss the map.. It doesn't really belong here I think
Here:
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!noob freak
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Yes, communication problems and no luck. Maybe if I just let Trouper drive when he bought the APC. Or if Norc didn't enter APC at the exact time when Trouper left driver seat and before I pressed 1 (must have been half a second? I don't blame anyone here). Or maybe if Trouper informed us that he is buying an APC (or did someone see him write this in chat? I didn't), we would be prepared sooner. That, plus what Jeff wrote above. It's often such details that decide the outcome (same with sneaking in the previous games... there's so much luck involved in that as well)
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26 minutes ago, DarkSn4ke said:
lost Tomb due to... bad coordination? Not sure, but our mood was like "oh noes its Tomb
" *lol* We didn't manage to save our initial harvester and lost really fast.
Losing first harv + not enough mines + smart buggy rush
But yeah, ggs.
Pick Up Games (PUGs)
in Renegade X
Posted
Complex
10 minutes in and Nod is getting destroyed by meds.
Tomb
Long back-and-forth vehicle fight on both silo and harvester sides. Nod with the advantage early on, then the more meds on field, the stronger GDI was getting. Nod PP went down to meds around 20th minute while hotwire caused distraction in HoN, but Nod was still holding on for a good 15 minutes. The rest of their base was destroyed as Nod attempted a desperate rocket rush through the tunnel.
Goldrush
2 early soldier rushes by GDI - 1 going for ref from the front entrance, the other for hon - were fended off, but GDI managed to take control of the field anyway. Being pressured by meds from the front and sydneys/infantry from the bridge was too much for Nod. HoN went down first.
Walls
3 humvees filled with 6 engineers destroyed the not-yet-mined HoN and it was basically game over.
2-2, ~15v15, good games, balanced teams.
Meds stronk.