Mobius range nerf?

[Leader Bee]

I'm happy with the damage for a mobius, but damned be you if you are any class other than doza trying to counter it; It shreds infantry far too easily giving you a couple of seconds to do a miniscule amount of damage then die. Perhaps not quite so much a problem in underground tunnels and bunkers but outside on large fields and open areas there is little or no escape from them.

 

Opinions?

Edited March 23, 2021 by Leader Bee

[mouse705]

I agree it's an issue. But perhaps not nerf him, and unnerf Nod. Stop forcing kid mode on us where Nod (known for damage), gets nerfed over and over - and now we see that Mobi is imbalanced more.

Recently devs nerfed Doza and Chem ammo clip. We protested and said why. But they didnt listen to us. Now what Leader Bee says is more of an issue.

1. GDI owns any map with tunnels, which is a lot - because 1 Mobi is so powerful (+3 spam Nadders) - and the only good counter is lol snipers (in a tunnel with 200 ping? - not an option for many US players - while only UK servers get full).
2. Owning the tunnels = lets GDI own/block the field too.
3. Nod is known for burst damage, exotic weapons, and stealth. But Instead devs nerf Chem ammo clip. Why?
4. Chem is a melee character that needs to get in range - while GDI nadders get to spam longer range AOE attacks. GDI AOE spam also ruins SBH stealth = tunnel advantage GDI.
5. Chem is a suicidal character, going against groups of Nadders or tanks in the field + he's slow + only 250 max ammo (needs to run back to base) + he's bright green + big boxy target (while GDI "similar tier" Nadder is fast, small). Thus Chems ammo clip (burst damage) SHOULD be higher to make buying the unit and running melee, worth it (he has to charge Mobi to get damage in). Even basic Soldier (free) has a higher ammo clip than Chem (pay character).
6. Thus devs' reason to nerf Chem (~'match similar GDI tier ammo clip') was wrong because GDI nadder range is not the same as chem!!!! Thus you can't make ammo clips equal then you're not measuring the same things (range).
7. Devs' real reason to nerf Chem was: "Chem rush." Ok so are you going to nerf Rocket rush, Mobi rush, Mam rush? Why are you nerfing the game for the max potential of 6 Chems - while ignoring that during 3v3 teams, only 1 Chem will have to do the work to counter GDI tanks and Nadders?
8. Devs also ignored that GDI has tanks with higher health - and this is why in this Rock, paper, scissors game - Nod needs the stealth and higher burst damage to balance = Nod tanks with low health + melee with high damage vs GDI tank with high health.
9. LGC was also nerfed prior = he's no longer a threat to GDI tanks (high health with long range vs Inf with range not long enough to reach tanks + fire spread = inaccurate against tanks). So what is the counter to GDI Mams + MLRS spam??? Nod has light tanks and low health veh + nerfed damage Infantry = GDI advantage.
10. Thus the balance has been ruined with the current nerfs, which is why we're now discussing how Mobi seems even more OP now. So dont nerf him, unnerf Nod and let us play the game.

[Gex_str]

I'll just drop a link to a discussion that shows actual reason as to why Nod may be losing to GDI:

https://renegade-x.com/forums/topic/77957-nod-has-even-more-become-the-underdog/

[mouse705]

1 hour ago, Gex_str said:

I'll just drop a link to a discussion that shows actual reason as to why Nod may be losing to GDI:

https://renegade-x.com/forums/topic/77957-nod-has-even-more-become-the-underdog/

Thanks. It's helpful to see the same things were complained about Nod lacking since 2020. Thus the 2021 Chem/Doza nerf is more unreasonable. And thus Bee's issue is important to address (I think Mobi shouldn't be nerfed - Nod unnerfed to counter Mobi) - and thus avoid the endless nerf slippery-slope.

[Gex_str]

I'll only say this: you can't make Nod better just by unnerfing them, when you still need to stand continuously in visible range of target in order to kill it.

[NodSaibot]

4 hours ago, mouse705 said:

Recently devs nerfed Doza and Chem ammo clip.

Doza....? Nobody nerfed Doza.

Quote

• Tiberium Auto Rifle (Epic Char version)
  • Increased spread and recoil slightly
  • Reduced clip size from 30 -> 20
  • Reduced splash damage from 200 -> 175

I specifically wrote EPIC CHAR version of the weapon (which means the green one, on the Armoured Syd and Mutant Rav), NOT Doza weapon.

[mouse705]

18 minutes ago, Sarah. said:

Tiberium Auto Rifle (Epic Char version)

Ok ty, I didn't notice that detail. That Epic-only adjustment is fair.

So devs nerfed Chem, LGC, Doza.  What's the real reason Chem was nerfed? And did devs take into account: rooting, melee-range vs GDI tanks and snipers, slower run vs quick GDI that can spam nads?

Nod gets rooted more than GDI to do damage = Nod ammo clip or damage per second should not be nerfed (because Nod deserves the damage advantage if Inf is getting rooted):

1. Flamethrower: mild-root to do damage, needs melee range vs GDI Basic Nadder (longer range, can shoot and jump away (hold run), jump back to do damage as fast as the weapon can fire - even you mentioned this GDI advantage in a 2020 post regarding Gunner).
2. Chem: root to do damage, no alt-fire, big visual box/bright green target, suicidal (needs to run into Nads or Tanks), needs melee range vs GDI Big Nadder (longer range, alt-fire, can shoot and jump away. faster, smaller visual box).
3. LGC: super root to do damage + spin up, big target, slow, kickback + too much firespread at long range, needs closer range vs his enemy: GDI tanks with longer range, higher health + snipers = root for Nod is very deadly with no damage advantage.  Also about LGC: why does a laser gun have kickback - while GDI Gunner does not (giant rocket)? If you shine a flash light or laser - your hand doesnt kick back, it's an energy weapon, not kinetic/gunpowder. So the fact that Gunner's rocket doesnt have kickback (aim levels back to original point after firing) - is illogical.
4. GDI Mobi gets mild root (but hes still fast and has longest range, thus he's not affected as much as Nod). I dont want Mobi range nerfed, I want Nod unnerfed and for Devs to account for rooting = low ammo clip is too harsh on Nod.

[yosh56]

8 hours ago, mouse705 said:

So devs nerfed... LCG....

When on Earth was the LCG nerfed? They still dominate as long as you just position yourself where you're not constantly exposed to snipers. Between EMPs, and being the only unit that can walk away from 6 MRLS rockets exploding beside it, they're far from weak. Also... their spread really only affects their ability to kill infantry. If you're missing Mammoths, you've got other problems. Also... they NEVER have to leave where they're at to refill ammo, making them arguably better at locking people in at chokepoints than any other infantry in the game. 

Quote

1. Devs' real reason to nerf Chem was: "Chem rush." Ok so are you going to nerf Rocket rush, Mobi rush, Mam rush? Why are you nerfing the game for the max potential of 6 Chems - while ignoring that during 3v3 teams, only 1 Chem will have to do the work to counter GDI tanks and Nadders?

I mean... the chem and flamethrower nerf I don't even understand. Seemed kind of pointless. But no nerfing chemrushes wasn't the reason. Don't just make up false reasons when the actual reasons are right there. That's just plain rude. Also there's a massive difference between *magazine* size, and just *reserve* ammo. Their magazine size was unchanged. 

 

Also I have a 'serious' question. Why on Earth are you using chems to counter tank spam? That wasn't a thing in...... any version of Renegade. If you were just going to bumrush tanks, you grabbed a free engineer or a free AT unit to suicide and C4. Maybe try to kill a repair or 2. You don't throw money at suicide defense. If anything I can see using Chems just to throw nades behind tanks to hit their repairs, but throwing the unit away for $225 is just.... bad eco-management. 

 

 

[bred]

On 3/24/2021 at 12:04 PM, mouse705 said:

Ok ty, I didn't notice that detail. That Epic-only adjustment is fair.

So devs nerfed Chem, LGC, Doza.  What's the real reason Chem was nerfed? And did devs take into account: rooting, melee-range vs GDI tanks and snipers, slower run vs quick GDI that can spam nads?

Nod gets rooted more than GDI to do damage = Nod ammo clip or damage per second should not be nerfed (because Nod deserves the damage advantage if Inf is getting rooted):

1. Flamethrower: mild-root to do damage, needs melee range vs GDI Basic Nadder (longer range, can shoot and jump away (hold run), jump back to do damage as fast as the weapon can fire - even you mentioned this GDI advantage in a 2020 post regarding Gunner).
2. Chem: root to do damage, no alt-fire, big visual box/bright green target, suicidal (needs to run into Nads or Tanks), needs melee range vs GDI Big Nadder (longer range, alt-fire, can shoot and jump away. faster, smaller visual box).
3. LGC: super root to do damage + spin up, big target, slow, kickback + too much firespread at long range, needs closer range vs his enemy: GDI tanks with longer range, higher health + snipers = root for Nod is very deadly with no damage advantage.  Also about LGC: why does a laser gun have kickback - while GDI Gunner does not (giant rocket)? If you shine a flash light or laser - your hand doesnt kick back, it's an energy weapon, not kinetic/gunpowder. So the fact that Gunner's rocket doesnt have kickback (aim levels back to original point after firing) - is illogical.
4. GDI Mobi gets mild root (but hes still fast and has longest range, thus he's not affected as much as Nod). I dont want Mobi range nerfed, I want Nod unnerfed and for Devs to account for rooting = low ammo clip is too harsh on Nod.

Bunch of things I'm going to point out here :

1) Chem wasn't nerfed. All that happened was that it's total ammo count got reduced, NOT magazine size. Realistically no one was ever gonna use 900 Chem ammunition on recruit, let alone the 2000something you got on Heroic considering Chem is a more suicidal unit where you go in, you spray and you fall back. It wasn't nerfed due to Chem rushes being "OP".

2) You're really selling the point that Grenadier is overwhelming and practically unkillable with a Flamethrower or a Chem. From what I've seen, its the other way round. When they get within range, they can shred the grenadier. Obviously if you're playing a map where they can just shoot tunnels from really far away, like short tunnel on Field/FieldX then its annoying. But thats just it, its annoying. He's actually not effective at all, the guy will eventually get bored after getting 1 kill every 6 minutes and either camp that with an MRLS cause it's WAY more effective, or buy a unit where he can go in and actually deal damage. 

3) Chems can obliterate Mobius and are better than Mendozas on the right maps. Infact, I'll give you an example of a game of Crash site I was commanding last week where GDI owned tunnels for the majority of the game. I used that to kill HON and we completely lost tunnels for the entire game after that. Why? Cause enemy players started playing Chem and would corner camp every exit and melt mobiuses, grenadiers, gunners and officers. We lost that game ONLY cause 4 people played Chems in tunnels and would left click on both exits, completely denying anything from getting through. The dozas were only holding Nod back from getting tunnels. Maps like Crash site, Field/FieldX, Snow/SnowX and Islands/IslandsX are where Chems shine cause of their small, boxy infantry paths that can be easily sprayed. On larger maps such as Goldrush and Outposts, distance is a lot bigger and makes them less effective cause you will just get outranged.

4) Pro-tip from an AT-main. With LCG, hold right click and then left click in 5 round bursts to obliterate enemy infantry from range with massive damage and high accuracy. What are they gonna do, shoot a walking tank with a dinky pistol? gl. Gunners have a range advantage and do damage in smaller "bursts" which can overwhelm repairs at times but LCG compensates with mad dps on elite+, 400/475 Flak on elite/heroic, and a gun that can basically laser any infantry in sub 10 bullets if you hit your bodyshots on elite+. They're weaker on recruit and veteran, but after that they're probably the best AT unit you can grab for its low cost, massive damage, emp and accuracy when fired in bursts.

Edited March 28, 2021 by bred