What does the fact that no one wants to command say?

[Suspiria]

On 7/22/2020 at 6:14 PM, Knive said:

The problem about new teams is that they never ask stuff, would be huge if there also would be kinda like a tutorial maybe just a list for the short names and stuff.

Most of the new people don't understand that teamwork is important in RenX so they have to learn it in a hard way by losing and stuff.

Worst outcome is that they don't learn and complain against others why they lost.

Yep, we won't know what needs suggesting/explaining until something goes wrong.

So that's definately where a preventative tutorial comes in. Which will also reduce player churn.
That is: players leaving the community due to excessive skill gap and accompanying drama.

Edited July 23, 2020 by DugeHick

[R315r4z0r]

On 7/19/2020 at 6:20 PM, DugeHick said:

Quite a few people here call those multi-hour matches "stalemates", and strongly prefer to play more than one map/match in their two hours of free time.
Myself included.

"Stalemates" where the most enjoyable matches. I'd much prefer to play a 2 hour game on a single map than play 5 maps for 25 minutes each. Short matches are worthless and just not fun. When it comes to multiplayer games, I prefer ones that simulate loss by making you feel the burden of it. In Renegade's case, the frustration of wanting a match to end after playing on it for too long but being unable to end it because the enemy team is putting up too good of a fight is physical weight that I can feel emotionally. It makes me feel like there is a real stake involved in me putting my time into that match.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 6:20 PM, DugeHick said:

The only way to win such a game was to... well: wait until the other party tires enough that they make some stupid mistake in defense.
Possibly because their top defender(s) had enough and leave(s) the game and nobody effectively takes up their spot(s).
And then you would capitalize on that mistake and the game finally ends, yeeey.

Not necessarily true. This sort of has connotations to how maps are designed. In some cases, matches will become boring simply because maps aren't versatile enough in their design. Conversely, when maps are too open, it just becomes irritating to play because there are so many ways the enemy can attack from it's almost impossible to defend effectively.

Strategy and coordination win matches and the satisfaction from winning a match due to a successful strategy is up there in the top 3 reasons for what makes Renegade so fun to play.

On 7/19/2020 at 6:20 PM, DugeHick said:

In other words: without leadership, to me it feels like both teams are just trying to bore/tire each other off the battlefield.
And in the meantime have some fun shooting each other with all kinds of stuff, ofcourse.
But that's just that, after a while. And only that, is not really my idea of excitement. Which I do seek in videogames.

I didn't say anything about not requiring leadership. What I am saying is that the commander role, and its necessity in actually winning games, is making it hard for leaders to just fall into place naturally. An actual team leader in Renegade was never really official unless you where playing specialized matches. This made it easy for anyone to simply chime in and coordinate with others. Commanders now are a very specific role. There are players that have reputations of actually being good commanders and it kills the spirit of Renegade since their voice automatically mutes anyone else.

On 7/19/2020 at 6:20 PM, DugeHick said:

I don't just want to win the battle with the other tank.
I also want to win the war.
And I don't always have, or want to invest, 5 hours to do that.
Especially if there are so many great maps to play.

If I go to a restaurant, I want to order a single meal and enjoy that. The next time I go, I might get something else to enjoy that. But getting a sample platter of different meals is not enough to enjoy anything. Yeah, the game has a lot of good maps. That doesn't mean you need to play them all every time you log in. Short matches aren't enough to enjoy them.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by R315r4z0r

[Suspiria]

Funny to witness these different preferences.
Because I can totally empathize with you and understand your preferences.

7 hours ago, R315r4z0r said:

When it comes to multiplayer games, I prefer ones that simulate loss by making you feel the burden of it.

I experience the same emotion, but for me that sweet spot is about 45-60 minutes. (MAX)
And I like 25-minute matches only if I feel that the teams were reasonably balanced.

7 hours ago, R315r4z0r said:

This sort of has connotations to how maps are designed. In some cases, matches will become boring simply because maps aren't versatile enough in their design.

Hmm yes that does make sense. Great point.

7 hours ago, R315r4z0r said:

If I go to a restaurant, I want to order a single meal and enjoy that. The next time I go, I might get something else to enjoy that. But getting a sample platter of different meals is not enough to enjoy anything. Yeah, the game has a lot of good maps. That doesn't mean you need to play them all every time you log in. Short matches aren't enough to enjoy them.

Hahaha here we go.

So I guess you must not like sushi and tapas then.
There are many many people who do, though. 😛 

7 hours ago, R315r4z0r said:

What I am saying is that the commander role, and its necessity in actually winning games, is making it hard for leaders to just fall into place naturally. An actual team leader in Renegade was never really official unless you where playing specialized matches. This made it easy for anyone to simply chime in and coordinate with others. Commanders now are a very specific role. There are players that have reputations of actually being good commanders and it kills the spirit of Renegade since their voice automatically mutes anyone else.

Yes I fully agree with this.

I wonder if the expectations / social pressure dynamic would change if the buffs would no longer cost any CP while having a X minute cooldown.
It differs because no points will be wasted on top of the loss of the rush, so one does not lose the ability to launch cruise missiles and EMP/smoke.

I know that that's probably still not exactly what you would prefer, but if there had to be a golden mean then something like this may be a good start. Anything to take a little bit of pressure off the commander. Especially when it's hard to gather a rush group.

Edited August 2, 2020 by DugeHick

[Suspiria]

Also I think we're overlooking one huge thing here why people don't want to command:
The excruciating experience of having to preface every TeamSay with /C or /R, and to have to SetBind to repeat messages.
And if you accidentally press T instead of Y? Then your rush is as dead as it can be. Now thàt, is stressful to the brain.

So I'd say: let's see what happens if we put "TeamSay /C ..." on key I and "TeamSay /R ..." on key O.
And then if you press key P it will repeat your last /R message.

I tried this already with keybinds, but the chat input boxes are currently coded in such a way that you can't do that.

[isupreme]

Quote

There are players that have reputations of actually being good commanders and it kills the spirit of Renegade since their voice automatically mutes anyone else.

Quote

What I am saying is that the commander role, and its necessity in actually winning games, is making it hard for leaders to just fall into place naturally

Thank you. well said.

 

Give all command abilities to the players with appropriate balance mechanisms like Command Points.

1. Allow players to vote a harvester manager.

2. Allow players to purchase the ability to jointly create a buff effect, or at least the ability to solo buff yourself and hope others do the same at the right time.    It would be AMAZING to see a map with symbols indicating players who have an offensive buff option. 

  Imagine the natural fun of game play when  players gather in a tunnel until critical mass and them BAM!     No need to wait for a commander.   Just players doing what they know will work.   [ Isupreme dies, returns to Purchase panel.  Checks Map.  hmmm....  we hold the field,  O!  look... some offensive buff players are gathering in the tunnel we hold.  !Sweet!  Maybe i can buy same and join them in time for a BIG PUSH.  ]        Could veterancy enable the mechanic?

3  Allow a HEAVILY  restricted ability to launch... The dreaded Invisible missile of death from the sky.   This would allow players to learn about it and not just dread it.

4.etc etc.etc

I believe almost every command ability could be given to the players and this game has always been about equality of players.   Every map we start equal.

Edited August 2, 2020 by isupreme
a bit more of the picture i see possible....

[dtdesign]

I do not think it is healthy to give "ordinary" players the ability to use those borderline gamebreaking buffs at their own will. You're looking at it solely from the perspective of someone who doesn't want to wait for the commander to initiate something.

However, you're missing the point that a commander isn't just a buff machine, but is also someone who coordinates the team. Especially new players heavily benefit from these coordinate actions, they get a sense of what is happening. There is a guiding hand that shows them what is possible, even fulfilling a power fantasy by being part of a mighty rush that steamrolls the other team. Simply by participating in these rushes, they learn about how powerful teamwork is, they learn about the different angles of the map and all other sorts of stuff.

If you were ever unlucky enough to play with me being your commander, you would have noticed that I always have encouraging words to say once a rush is over. Regardless of its outcome, I'm always looking into the positive effects and to make people understand that a failed rush is only a minor setback.

Yesterday on Arctic Stronghold, we did a doza rush on Barracs but where spotted way too early + MRLS spam. Eventually we all died, but bar was down to 40% perma. This is what I focused on, highlighting that we did good damage and that we can build upon this. Afterwards there was no negativity in team chat left, everyone accepted that this didn't work out, but that it's not the end. A few minutes later we successfully rocket rushed the GDI PP from tib field and pretty much everyone from the failed doza rush was part of it again. This was the nail in the coffin for GDI and we wrapped it up shortly after, the failed bar rush didn't matter.

The commander is a really challenging role, you constantly have to evaluate the situation and your CP budget to figure out what would be most effective. What if you see a good opportunity building up, but some players in tunnels or whatever decide its time to blow their own buff? Even worse, having some kind of mini rush could reveal a weakness in the enemies defense that you were about to exploit at a bigger scale. Their mini rush fails and your window of opportunity is gone. How do you expect commanders to work if you take away their tools?

Edited August 3, 2020 by dtdesign

[isupreme]

dtdesign - you raise some good points.     Especially this:

Quote

Especially new players heavily benefit from these coordinate actions, they get a sense of what is happening. There is a guiding hand that shows them what is possible, even fulfilling a power fantasy by being part of a mighty rush that steamrolls the other team. Simply by participating in these rushes, they learn about how powerful teamwork is,

That is an excellent point.   It is very important for players to learn about teamwork.  The kind of teamwork not often found in other games.      I might counter that the same experience could be found  in the path I suggest,   But it is true... commanders do already fulfill this important need.

Overall I still feel that enabled players make better decisions than a King on a Mountain.   I mean Commander.  .

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by isupreme

[roweboat]

On 8/2/2020 at 5:07 AM, DugeHick said:

Also I think we're overlooking one huge thing here why people don't want to command:
The excruciating experience of having to preface every TeamSay with /C or /R, and to have to SetBind to repeat messages.
And if you accidentally press T instead of Y? Then your rush is as dead as it can be. Now thàt, is stressful to the brain.

So I'd say: let's see what happens if we put "TeamSay /C ..." on key I and "TeamSay /R ..." on key O.
And then if you press key P it will repeat your last /R message.

I tried this already with keybinds, but the chat input boxes are currently coded in such a way that you can't do that.

actually with chatboxes open (same for terminal menu) you can simply hit the UP arrow on the keyboard to scroll through previous messages.

 

I'm forgetting when and how I discovered this, or if someone told me awhile ago. but as a commander, its EXTREMELY useful.

[R315r4z0r]

On 8/3/2020 at 9:25 AM, dtdesign said:

However, you're missing the point that a commander isn't just a buff machine, but is also someone who coordinates the team.

This is the problem, though. The simple concept of making the leader a tangible rank is a bad idea. It might sound to you like it's helpful for new players, but only because you've played the game with the roll in place to know what it is. But most new players probably don't even realize a commander exists or that they are any different from EVA announcements.

Then there are players that do enjoy communicating with their team, but feel like there is an unnecessary weight of responsibility that comes with the rank that they simply don't want. This results in the same people taking the roll over and over.

And I'm not even talking about buffs or other commander powers. I honestly don't care much for them. If you pressed me, I'd could probably easily be able to brainstorm some concepts to allow all players to use them in a fair, balanced way. But I care mainly for encouraging basic team play and communication. And encouraging new players to participate. Not just blindly do what the pink text says.

Edited August 15, 2020 by R315r4z0r

[TankClash]

Add a commander cool down I guess? 1 - 0 - 1 map rotation share the experience, more can learn.

[HavocPrime]

whatever you do dont make COOLAID a commander he surrenders we lose a building and he surrender .