*A- Personnel Carriers / Solution to GDI early-game veh issue?

[Madkill40]

GDI APC is one of the only vehicles in the game which cannot perform its primary task

http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/GDI_armoured_personnel_carrier_(Renegade)

• The GDI APC has an M-60 Machine Gun, it should not actually be able to have a 360 degree rotation with its weapon but rather; 
  • The GDI APC should have either a 90 or 45 degree cone for shooting what is only directly ahead of it
    • If the GDI APC needs to shoot at an enemy which is not directly ahead of it, using the treads allows the GDI APC to turn on the spot, changing its direction of fire
  • With a 90 degree cone for the GDI APC M-60 MG,
    • buff of the GDI APC to have ACTUAL Armour-Piercing rounds making the M-60 Machine Gun effective against more than just Aircraft and Buggy's and infantry
  • The GDI APC should still be able to shoot at aircraft, 
    • so long as the APC is facing towards the aircraft
  • The GDI APC should be able to obliterate anti-tank infantry in-particular so long as the bullets can hit the infantry targets,
    • reduce the travel time of the GDI APC bullets but no splash damage as these rounds actually need to hit their targets not just hit near their targets
  • The GDI APC should gain improved attrition against some of Nod's heavier vehicles,
    • being able to puncture Arty's whilst denting Light tanks 
  • This should allow a GDI APC to be able to intimidate flame tanks from a distance, 
    • should there be several APCs and only one or very few flame tanks
• Improve the Nod APC acceleration and brake,
  • to allow an increased chance of avoiding/dodging enemy shots  
    • The APC vehicle's main priority is to ferry units in the game
      • Mobility is meant to be their biggest strength
• Increase the GDI APC general speed,
  • treads shouldn't force this vehicles speed to be so heavily reduced compared to its Nod counter-part
• The GDI APC should have a heavier penalty than the Nod APC when attacked with missiles and fire, 
  • making rocket soldiers, flame troopers, flame tanks and stealth tanks the most ideal counters to ensure that Nod can still fend off any pesky GDI APC rushes at any point during a game
• The GDI APC should have better defense against other units
  • with the exception of Raveshaw's, because Railgun is an 'unique' a weapon as the PIC
• GDI APCs should be ineffective at attacking vehicles one-on-one or as their primary directive, 
  • They are a support vehicle, not a strike force of mega-blizters

 

Nod APC is the other vehicle in the game which cannot perform its primary task

http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Nod_armoured_personnel_carrier_(Renegade)

• The Nod APC only has a "machine gun" so it should be good Vs infantry as a whole,
  • but not so much against Meds/Mammoth tanks (which is what all other Nod vehicles/infantry are for)
  • The Nod APC needs to have a faster rate of fire,
  • A small increase in weapon spread 
  • A much larger ammunition clip than its GDI APC counter-part, 
    • to allow for superior anti-infantry support
  • The Nod APC has wheels, so it needs its 360 degree rotational weapon,
    • this is also why I think the guns should differ so much for both factions' APCs
• The Nod APC general speed could be a little bit faster,
  • but the GDI APC speed needs to be closer to the Nod APCs speed than it is currently
  • While I do agree that the Nod APC should be faster than the GDI APC,
    • it should not be faster than it currently is
      • (the difference between both APC speeds is ridiculous)
• The Nod APC is Nod's only low-budget armoured vehicle against aircraft,
  • this is a big necessity for Nod to have an armoured unit with good anti-air capabilities
• Improve the Nod APC acceleration and brake,
  • to allow an increased chance of avoiding/dodging enemy shots  
    • The APC vehicle's main priority is to ferry units in the game
      • Mobility is meant to be their biggest strength
• The Nod APC main weaknesses need to be (which they probably already are but)
  • Primarily Gunner's, Mammoth Tanks, Sydney's & Rocket Soldiers,
    • With the suggested additional speed this should make hitting them more challenging for the enemy.
    • The Med tank should not be as effective against the Nod APC as it currently is

Nod & GDI APCs

• Both of these APCs need to be able to barge most other vehicles out of the way, which attempt to get in their way
  • -So their PRIMARY task isn't so easily hindered by nearly -ANY- vehicle crossing its path.
  • -This excludes the Mammoth and Flame Tanks 
• Both the Nod and GDI APC should be able to withstand a few more hits,
  • Redefining the meaning behind "Armoured" by buffing their defence,
  • The most damaging counters against an APC should be
    • Mammoth Tanks, Sydney's;
    • Flame Tanks, Raveshaw's. 
    • But most importantly,
      • both Nod and GDI APC need to take 75% damage if they drive over an enemy anti-tank mine
• It would be amazing if both the Nod and GDI APC had an extra defence buff
  • against base defence structures, if this was even possible
• The Nod APC requires a defence buff against the GDI APCs ammunition,
  • so that one cannot so easily shred the other vehicle, if this is doable

 

• If any of what has been detailed in this thread is doable, please consider this change to the state of the Nod and GDI APC

 

What this means for GDI:

1. GDI will have a vehicle which costs 500 credits which can actually support other units with suppression fire during early and later games
2. GDI will have a vehicle which can still support their base even after the Weapons Factory has been destroyed
3. GDI will have a vehicle class which can actually perform its task of carrying troops across the field with some hope of a pay-off (i.e. Getting from Point A to point B with heavy damage sustained, rather than annihilated with players filled with regret)

 

What this means for Nod:

1. Nod will have a cheaper unit which can at least hinder the pace of medium tanks steamrolling into their base allowing other units to concentrate their fire on GDI steamrolls
2. Nod's APC will offer stronger support against all infantry types to better protect their anti-tank infantry
3. Nod will have a vehicle class which can actually perform its task of carrying troops across the field with some hope of a pay-off (i.e. Getting from Point A to point B with heavy damage sustained, rather than annihilated with players filled with regret)

Edited June 11, 2018 by Madkill40
Formatted

[Redarmy]

Well, a major reason I feel like APC rushes aren't a thing really is due to the nature of the game. Almost all maps have only 1 vehicle enterance or in the case of FieldX, they're close enough to each other to where they're essentially the same. By the time a team is able to get an APC, the other team is either already moving arties out into the field, or are preparing to counter the arties moving into the field. This means the other team doesn't really need to do anything special to actually counter an APC rush. In a map like Tunnels or Outposts, an APC rush is more plausible due to the fact that they're big enough to where the other team might not be able to notice it in time and both entrances might not be covered fully, then again, the travel time between bases makes apc rushing insane to try on Outposts, the one successful humvee rush during a PUG on that map took forever as is, and those are 150 credits cheaper.

 

If APC rushes are to ever really be a thing again, they need to be slightly cheaper. They need to have a higher top speed. Allow APCs, or at least the Nod one, to drift. Also, having an added passenger seat could help make it more worthwhile to attempt over a buggy/humvee riding rush.

[yosh56]

Quote

The GDI APC has an M-60 Machine Gun, it should not actually be able to have a 360 degree rotation with its weapon

In OldRen yes. RenX, both use the gatling guns to avoid just being redundant with buggies/humvees. Also... you can put pretty much any heavy machine gun on a pedestal with 360 degrees of of fire. The only reason you'd have such a limited cone of fire is if you were propped on a biped in an MG next/bunker.... which obviously it's not, since it's jerry-rigged into a turret-type setup for OldRen. 

3 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

The GDI APC should be able to obliterate anti-tank infantry in-particular so long as the bullets can hit the infantry targets,

• reduce the travel time of the GDI APC bullets but no splash damage as these rounds actually need to hit their targets not just hit near their targets

 

..... A) It already rapes flak infantry and B) .... ummm, Madkill.......... It's already hit-scan O.o ? It can't go any faster

3 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

The GDI APC should have a heavier penalty than the Nod APC when attacked with missiles and fire, 

Seems... very odd. 

---

APCs probably could do with some handling changes, though I'm just thankful for the GDI APC no longer being classified as a borderline aircraft with how easily it used to take flight. 

3 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

Both of these APCs need to be able to barge most other vehicles out of the way, which attempt to get in their way

• -So their PRIMARY task isn't so easily hindered by nearly -ANY- vehicle crossing its path.

... That's a strong NO. It's an armoured vehicle sure, but so is pretty much everything else on the battlefield. 

---------------

To be fair, the only map I remember really ever succesfully doing APC rushes on (with any consistency) in OldRen was City.... and that just because you had A LOT of room to move around, as the chokepoint wasn't that large going toward the powerplant, and it was a VERY short distance if you cut to the path behind the HON. 

I don't think EMPs really stop APC rushes that often. Not the ones that do like they're supposed to and come out of scenic nowhere. 

At best, a handling change on the Nod APC might be in order... but honestly I think they serve their purposes well enough. They're both really good anti-infantry/aircraft/light-vehicle, and very early game they make some unpleasantly dangerous rushes if not spotted. 

Also... needing more than 1 APC for a decoy isn't really some sort of disadvantage... it's just tactics. 

[Madkill40]

7 hours ago, yosh56 said:

At best, a handling change on the Nod APC might be in order... but honestly I think they serve their purposes well enough. They're both really good anti-infantry/aircraft/light-vehicle, and very early game they make some unpleasantly dangerous rushes if not spotted. 

Improve handling for both APCs, quit buffing the one APC that has a huge speed advantage over the other APC as the GDI APC goes so slow

 

7 hours ago, yosh56 said:

Seems... very odd.

The missile penalty would only apply if all other suggestions were taken on-board

7 hours ago, yosh56 said:

A) It already rapes flak infantry and B) .... ummm, Madkill.......... It's already hit-scan ? It can't go any faster

Again, if the weapon was changed as suggested then "reduce the travel time of the bullets" so it would not be hit-scan, but more lethal in fewer rounds against infantry

7 hours ago, yosh56 said:

Also... you can put pretty much any heavy machine gun on a pedestal with 360 degrees of of fire.

Where in my post did I say it was impossible? That's an irrelevant point, the only reason to limit the APC's weapon axis as suggested is if the gun was buffed.

In-short, the suggestion to changing the GDI APC is to make it more effective against Nod vehicles whilst making the weapon a bit more difficult to hit infantry with, the suggestion to the Nod APC is to make hitting infantry easier with the MG by adding a weapon spread on top of a larger clipsize and a faster rate of fire. On top of all this, both APCs need to be able to push other vehicles out of the way with more ease than just being grounded by anything that isn't another APC or Buggy/Humvee

[Sn4ke]

10 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

the suggestion to changing the GDI APC is to make it more effective against Nod vehicles whilst making the weapon a bit more difficult to hit infantry with

imo APC dmg vs vehicles is fine. especially if we're talking about GDI as they have meds & mammoth who can take down any Nod vehicle solo (exluding the Apache, given the pilot is not stupid).

12 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

the suggestion to the Nod APC is to make hitting infantry easier with the MG by adding a weapon spread on top of a larger clipsize and a faster rate of fire.

spread / RoF and cliff size buff ???????? the later two would be a heavy buff against anything. esp. vs GDI vehicles

15 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

On top of all this, both APCs need to be able to push other vehicles out of the way with more ease than just being grounded by anything that isn't another APC or Buggy/Humvee

the GDI APC comes 2nd to the mammoth in regard of "nothing is able to push the vehicle out of the way*"

if the push-ability would be added you'd cause the most silly physics problems, as the pushed away vehicles had to go somewhere, probably ending up in cliping together (resulting in unmovable vehicles for a time) or clipping / stucking in meshes...

have to say that it might be funny though

*if the GDI APC driver doesn't want it!

ripped from @boxes Discord bot wiki

[Madkill40]

33 minutes ago, DarkSn4ke said:

if the push-ability would be added you'd cause the most silly physics problems, as the pushed away vehicles had to go somewhere, probably ending up in cliping together (resulting in unmovable vehicles for a time) or clipping / stucking in meshes...

1-on-1, APC shouldn't be grounded to such an immediate halt Vs any other vehicle besides Mammy/Flame. 

Didn't think I needed to explain the common sense to this one.

Those images don't mention the speed of the APCs

[Sn4ke]

29 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

Didn't think I needed to explain the common sense to this one.

based on the current physics RenX is using... there is no common sense to be found in this request:

1 hour ago, Madkill40 said:

both APCs need to be able to push other vehicles out of the way with more ease than just being grounded by anything that isn't another APC or Buggy/Humvee

 

[Madkill40]

@DarkSn4ke : Give APCs a weight closest to that of an Arty, no longer will APCs struggle to push through most vehicles 1-on-1. One problem solved.

[Eagle XI]

In Twisted Insurrection GDI has an hover apc that you could use to fly over enemy tanks like that. It doesnt do that there though.

Mmh, you are using it wrong if taking apc as battering ram to break into an sieged frontdoor. An more suitable window of opportunity to slip in would be the tight time-frame right after the battle has commenced, while defenders thoughts are still busy alternating between 'wtf did just happen' and 'omg restock vehicelz!1'.

That being said, APCs could use an measure that would help them versus anti-vehicle mines, as only two or three of them is enough to stop the Apc in its tracks ruining the 'stunt into base as c4 kamikaze party' effort. This measure could come in the form of an flat damage reduction towards anti-tank mine damage.

An inbuilt forward firing smoke launcher could be neat too. Think of like Apc gaining smoke grenade.

Another thing i had thought is giving APC rank elite and above an speaker, that when activated as an ability projects an aura around the vehicle which functions similar to those of GenZh Troop Crawler's. As an bonus it would play Ride of the Valkyries for GDI and Hellmarch for Nod when active.

[Sn4ke]

and still - you can't really push a GDI APC around. unless you're a Mammoth using shift start buff

while an APC can push things away, depends on the enemy driver and impact angle...

Edited June 15, 2018 by DarkSn4ke

[Axesor]

I like the idea of making both APCs more different from each other, but I dont think that what you suggest is the right way of doing so.

[[B]Veyron]

can I get a tl;dr version of this?