We need a vehicle that repairs other vehicles

[Hohndo]

I'm sure at some point this might have been brought up but I think we need a vehicle that can repair other vehicles.

For the last couple months I've been trying to figure out a way to balance snipers, not because they are overpowered but because the couple people that can use them are.

Now, I haven't figured out a way to balance snipers specifically, in fact the only solution I can come up with is range reduction and/or bullet drop but I am not certain those are good options.

However, if we had a vehicle on both sides that is armored against light weapons, is visible over most tanks, and is slower than most tanks then I think we could solve part of that problem.

I've been part of several PUGs where snipers are just dominating the field knocking out repairs for vehicles. I think this would help with the balance a bit.

I'm not trying to tackle sniper issue specifically in this post, I just want to hear thoughts on what everyone else thinks about this vehicle type. Good idea or bad idea? Should it operate the same as repairs already do or should it be a area of effect? Is it too far away from old ren? I'm kinda curious what everyone else thinks about it.

[Xeon Wraith]

Somewhat varies on the numbers but generally against.

Having a tank to keep other tanks alive seems like a GDI Tanker's wet dream, but its completely dependent on the numbers with it. Too high repairs and it makes the GDI Med deathball even more powerful than it already is. Too low and it becomes a light tank waste of a vehicle slot. Additionally Nod tanks and GDI tanks inherently play differently so it wouldn't be possible to have identical stats on both teams. All of this just seems like a balancing nightmare for something that doesn't actually fix much.

Rather than snipers being overpowered, it seems like more of a case that field repairs are too strong. Snipers feeling overpowered is just a byproduct of it. Don't actually know how it is for other inf battles though.

[Henk]

Can't remember the last time I got sniped while repairing tanks. Way more of a threat are SBH and free infantry sneaking up from behind, klling you without your tank buddy noticing.

Best way to counter those snipers is with another sniper.

[vandal33]

Add the Tiberian Sun Mobile Repair Vehicle in a crate, anyone?

[Hohndo]

1 hour ago, Henk said:

Can't remember the last time I got sniped while repairing tanks. Way more of a threat are SBH and free infantry sneaking up from behind, klling you without your tank buddy noticing.

Best way to counter those snipers is with another sniper.

Have you tried repairing tanks when playing against poi and the like? I'm usually repairing tanks during PUGs so it happens to me frequently enough. More often than not, it's when I'm heading out to the field. More than a handful of games have been won solely because repairs aren't happening to vehicles.

Surprisingly, I haven't had a SBH sneak up on me since September or October. I played pretty frequently till the end of January at all times of the day. I actually get more Patchs than SBH in that situation. But sniping definitely happens more.

Can't think of a time a free infantry snuck up on me while I was repairing vehicles. Might have happened but I don't think I've ever been killed that way or I would have remembered it.

[Hohndo]

38 minutes ago, vandal33 said:

Add the Tiberian Sun Mobile Repair Vehicle in a crate, anyone?

I'd like it to be a purchased vehicle actually.

[j0g32]

Meh, i don't see the point of such a vehicle, given that we have engineers for field repairs (and perhaps service depots as buildings)

Sniping repairing engies is maybe the only advantage/option that infantry has against tanks - so balancewise no need for change, imho...

 

30 minutes ago, vandal33 said:

Add the Tiberian Sun Mobile Repair Vehicle in a crate, anyone?

In TS the mobile repair was Nod's equivalent to GDI's repair pad. Also in the RTS, repairing (rather than reconstructing/-purchasing) is imprtant from an economic point of view, saving resources. But in RenX repairs do not cost resources, quite the contrary - they generate credits - which makes repairs even more valuable!

Sorry for off-topic... ^^

Perhaps a Techbuilding with automated repairs in its proximity, somewhere central on the map.

(Similar to Propaganda Towers in Generals)

[limsup]

23 minutes ago, j0g32 said:

Perhaps a Techbuilding with automated repairs in its proximity, somewhere central on the map.

 

We do have a Medical Center on Fort... So I think that it's worth a thought experiment. Even so I think that a repair vehicle could be more of a nuisance, than useful...

 

24 minutes ago, Hohndo said:

Have you tried repairing tanks when playing against poi and the like?

That can be particularly challenging... You have my sincere sympathies!

 

1 hour ago, Henk said:

Way more of a threat are SBH and free infantry sneaking up from behind, klling you without your tank buddy noticing.

It has happened often to me in the past, and even more so now, that our only meaningful armament, the Heavy Pistol was taken away from us (adv. engis). Before the recent patch even I, with my horrible aim could take down occasionally the stray SBH. Also, I realized only recently, that the Technician's voice (under attack) was probably changed to better gain the attention of our "tank buddy".

Edited April 25, 2017 by limsup

[Sn4ke]

I don't like the idea of a repair tank. If there was one it would be another vehicle that "get's in the way" and as an (assumed) light armoured vehicle it would probably be just cannon fodder, literally free VP for the opponent.

If field repairs are dying due to snipers "all the time", then the healers are doing something wrong. Most field repairs get killed due to splash damage from Arties and the recently buffed MRLS. Meds / Mammoth / even Stanks also got a considerable amount of splash damage. Another thing are sneaky stanks rolling over field repairs with "deaf" mammoth drivers not noticing them...

And yeah: SBH, Patch, Airstrikes, chem troopers, free infantry (esp. shotgunner & flametrooper) get probably more field repair kills than the avg. sniper. Sure there are exceptionnally good snipers as poi / nick / deadbeat / Minji / (others). But that's individual player skill and not a balancing issue.

Most map environments offer decent possibilities of cover. It's up to the player who's repairing tanks to i) seek cover from splash and ii) from snipers / other infantry. If the healer is not moving at all...

Next thing: the tankers. Field repair is no solo job. It's up to the tanker to protect their healers & give them decent cover with their vehicle. In my opinion it's the tankers job to get rid of infantry threats as SBH or Patch. Most Technicians fighting any of these units will most likely die. But many field repairs also panic if they are on low health and see e.g. a chemical coming around the corner... why not entering the safety of the mammoth tank you're repairing?

Esp. during public matches a lot of field repairs just focus on their tank. They don't even notice that another Tech/Hottie is repairing them. Q-spamming them with "I NEED REPAIR" is (often) also a waste of time...

BioZ / Denuvian and me are often playing together using TeamSpeak to coordinate each other. Two tankers, one healer (most of the time). If the healer is on low health with no other healer around we just swap positions. Sure that needs communication & trust. On a public server most people won't do that... But with a small community we have here most player know each other (at least they know the names..) So if you have a dedicated field repair in your team... why not offering him/her to take over your tank if they are low on health (before you toll out on the battlefield..) - as most people won't understand what you want them to do during a tank battle / siege / whatever

5 hours ago, Hohndo said:

I've been part of several PUGs where snipers are just dominating the field knocking out repairs for vehicles. I think this would help with the balance a bit.

This may be the case if the PUG teams are unbalanced in regards of snipers. Last Saturday we had kind of that situation.

Team 2 had XEN & Ks.ol, our designated sniper had no chance against theam. Esp. during the Crash Site match a lof of field repairs got killed by XEN / Ks.ol during the first half of the match, but GDI still won. We switched tactics, another - better - sniper took charge and we were able to push Nod back....

Edited April 25, 2017 by DarkSn4ke

[RoundShades]

Late in old ren, modded maps contained "repair tanks" using a shiny untextured model of "prism tanks" from Red Alert 2.

However, I wouldn't support them. You have EMPs to destory tanks despite repairs, you have airstrikes to get at the repairs and vehicles, and you have snipers. That's already enough options. Engineers just need to work with tankers for cover. Maybe available sniping spots shouldn't be so damn sky-eye high in some maps like X-Mountain, Under, and Field? It's no problem on Islands.

[Madkill40]

This poi and boi bandwagon needs to frikken stop.

Blaming a player or two is NOT the reason you're an upset little wanker brat that needs an extra type of vehicle to stop you from being sniped because you think standing clear as day in the field will keep you safe.

A repair vehicle would need to be able to be two-shotted by a Sydney/Raveshaw, making it just a clunky useless heap of a vehicle clogging up the vehicle count. Take cover behind the vehicles where you most likely expect a sniper to be shooting from, is the sniper shooting from behind your teams' lines? Alert your team and go after the bastard! But as you are only repairing vehicles it shouldn't be difficult to ponder where snipers are going to shoot you from, situational awareness is pretty important so keep ducking, sprinting, strafing and covering your ass to keep out of their sights.

"But I do do that and I still get shot and boo to the hoo..."

Clearly not doing it right.

If for the third time you get sniped, stop doing repairs (after the third time you should know their whereabouts) and hunt the snipers down because hunting down those snipers is clearly going to be more beneficial to your team than repairing vehicles.

I'll make this point again, blaming other players is not a valid defense or feasible in a discussion to get anything added/changed.

[RoundShades]

I don't know, I've done the following, in order, in response to a sniper, on X-Mountain:
1) Field Repair.
2) Only repair from direct cover.
3) Hunt down sniper.
4) Organize manpower 4 times more than the snipers in the bunker, to rush the snipers.
5) Airstrike the sniper spot, hoping it'll land randomly onto the snipers.
6) ??? I don't really know what else to do, maybe I'm an idiot and aren't thinking of the obvious... f5, q, u, i, t, enter. Open youtube, play song.

 

[RoundShades]

You know what? Fuck it. In regard to that traumatic memory, I must also confess, that I too have had moments I considered how awesome it'd be to have Wolverine with a repair gun. That'd work, in my mind, mini walking mechsuit with repairgun. Weak to tank fire. In my mind, that'd make perfect sense for the role.

It just also opens up a whole nother box, where it's weak to a different "kind" of sniper fire, like someone else said. Everything's weak to something.

If snipers are that strong, I still say they should be weaker to kevlar targets. Their main anti is flak, they aren't anti-kevlar anyway, kevlar is anti-kevlar, and if there is one thing I think should be emphasized, it's that officers should work better at their range even against a sniper, and a sniper is supposed to work at the range an officer cannot work at.

[SvN91]

engineers and techs need to repair in cover behind the tanks or move around alot while it's mostly the tankers task to keep them safe. Imo it is not that often you get killed by snipers while repairing on the field. A repair vehicle would be really weird

 

[Madkill40]

Since the latest patch snipers have no kevlar and die pretty quickly using spray and prey tactics.

Maybe some units could have a concussion grenade?

Maybe sniper rifles could have a longer rate of fire between shots making snipers even less effective at close range? 

Or just really inaccurate unless firing through their scope? 

This makes hunting snipers down easier (provided you encounter them up close) but keeps them just as effective at long range as they are now.

Adding repair-class vehicles will only encourage vehicles camping chokepoints more and rendering a defensive sniper tactic almost obsolete.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Madkill40

[Guest Gliven]

On 4/25/2017 at 11:51 AM, DarkSn4ke said:

Another thing are sneaky stanks rolling over field repairs with "deaf" mammoth drivers not noticing them...

Still salty when i ran you over on crashsite? 

I am also very against a repair vehicle. I wouldnt be against a tech building that repairs vehicles around it. I dont know what measurements ren-x uses, but id say 3-4 med tank lengths would be good. 

[j0g32]

1 hour ago, Madkill40 said:

Or just really inaccurate unless firing through their scope? 

This.

Yes, please!

For all weapons.

[boxes]

9 minutes ago, j0g32 said:

This.

Yes, please!

For all weapons.

That's a recipe for a call of duty style gameplay

[Guest Gliven]

11 minutes ago, j0g32 said:

This.

Yes, please!

For all weapons.

If i could downvote this, i would

[yosh56]

No? 

 

Also

31 minutes ago, j0g32 said:

2 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

Or just really inaccurate unless firing through their scope? 

 

No. Except I'd try it on sniper rifles. As Jeff said, this isn't COD.. even though the hilarious thing is that's all most snipers in this[moreso OldRen] game are playing. They literally swear by their one skill of twitch reflexes... which is 100% COD. Yet, they bash COD.... which is where they should be. The irony there has always been hilarious. 

[dtdesign]

I really don't see a reason to add another vehicle for a repair job, that's what hotwire/techs are supposed to do! I've played active tank repair while having to face the jpoi stack and it still worked out pretty decent, but this requires teamwork. By teamwork I mean having a tank player who isn't a complete moron and understands that the tank is the only thing in between jpoi's bullet and your face.

The tank player must move in a way that the hotwire/tech is protected from direct gunfire at all times, this means no sudden direction changes and to avoid to put the pedal to the metal, leaving the repair behind.

You would be amazed how many people are cappable at that, if only you communicate with them. Whisper them and tell them that you're going to stick your repair gun to their metal ass at all cost! Knowing that there is active and consistent repair greatly changes how you can engage enemies and the tank can accept to take an additional hit or two, if only the repair bitch stays alive.

But then again, I try to stack with jpoi too, because I can't stand the frustration of getting annihilated by them. That said, ignore me, I know shit.

[vandal33]

Having a repair vehicle would be redundant as the engineer classes already do that. Being vulnerable to snipers is the kind of weakness field repair needs, it rewards teams that play well with snipers. A repair vehicle would only take up the vehicle count and make the experienced players who prefers on-foot repairs yell at players who bought one for taking up the vehicle limit.

And no to inaccurate firing without scope/ADS/iron-sight/whatever... I don't usually call it a COD thing since other games have it too but it really does feel like COD and presonally I don't like it.

[Chrisjh0223]

8 hours ago, j0g32 said:

This.

Yes, please!

For all weapons.

This should only be applied to the Pierce Sniper Rifle (Deadeye/Black Hand Sniper) and maybe even the Ramjet. For all the other weapons, no. Just no.

[RoundShades]

This existed for a single patch. It wasn't beloved. It was even very small spread unscoped, and it was hated nonetheless.

Most people would probably prefer any other solution. They no longer have kevlar, that's a good start. Their bullets could be bullet-based (reduced damage to kevlar). Things to make them vulnerable in close-range. I noticed last I played, that a marksman more than dings their health now, marksman outright destroy sniper health.

Spread is likely not necessary, nor wanted.

[Madkill40]

11 hours ago, yosh56 said:

 

Also

No. Except I'd try it on sniper rifles. As Jeff said, this isn't COD.. even though the hilarious thing is that's all most snipers in this[moreso OldRen] game are playing. They literally swear by their one skill of twitch reflexes... which is 100% COD. Yet, they bash COD.... which is where they should be. The irony there has always been hilarious. 

Is it possible to just have a scoped shot do a different damage amount than a non-scoped shot?

CoD no-scoping isn't very practical if it takes longer than 1.5 seconds to switch into scoped view.

[dtdesign]

3 hours ago, YagiHige said:

Most people would probably prefer any other solution. They no longer have kevlar, that's a good start.

I agree, adding random spray to non-scoped rifles is somewhat realistic (lol, this is Renegade!), but would be completely out-of-sync in regards to all other classes. Stripping armor makes snipers more vulnerable, but the actual impact of this change is rather small. Don't get me wrong, I really like these small changes, far better than stomping a class into the ground.

In regards to other solutions: Their ramjet is basically a handheld skyscraper, is there a particular reason why we shouldn't make them a bit less agile? Slightly decrease their movement speed makes them far more vulnerable to close range combat as their evasion potential gets dimished. It also rewards players who take their time to sneak up at these snipers by making snipers a somewhat easier prey.

Such a change wouldn't make players like the jpoi stack any less deadly, but at the same time would make it easier to kill them. Anyone who has seen them play LCG knows how deadly they can be, but also how easy it is to shove some bullets in their faces while they're basically a slowly moving brick.

One last thing for all those who die to snipers in close-range combat way too often: Do. Not. Jump. Your momentum and direction is preserved while airborne, which means that the point at which you touch the ground again can be perfectly predicted, there is no deviation and no chance for you to evade.

Edited April 27, 2017 by dtdesign

[Sn4ke]

53 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

Is it possible to just have a scoped shot do a different damage amount than a non-scoped shot?

that doesn't make any sense at all

Why should a scoped hit cause more damage than an unscoped

[j0g32]

@CampinJeff @Gliven

Whoah, I honestly feel offended for being accused of suggesting CoD like gameplay - come on... i am the last to want RenX play like CoD.* 

Actually, most people in COD multiplayer barely used their sights, because the weapons are ridiculously accurute unscoped...

Apart from the level design and atmosphere, I am not a fan of CoD.

My point with suggesting (increased) weapon spread was to emphasize tactical movements/positioning instead of bunny-hop tunnel sniping, or sprinting-shotgun / spray and pray feast...

Although I personally cannot recall experience with spread in RenX, nor negative sentiments of other players about this, perhaps this was due to uncomplete balance: you cannot just increase weapon spread without decreasing infantry agility.

 

If infantry are difficult to hit in the first place (since theyre moving/jumping around quickly, unpredictably) you need accurate weapons to give at least a reasonable chance to hit anyone, yielding a (what people seem to call) "skill-based" compensation for this difficulty.

 

If on the other hand infantry were easier targets (because their movements are more inert/sluggish), weapons should spread more to balance this, but the "skill-reward" here arises from being the first one in position (to aim and shoot reliably) when engaging the enemy.

Resulting in more "realistic", tactical gameplay, see the old battlefield classics (bf2 / 2142)

*As you can maybe tell (also from some of my other posts on the forums perhaps), if anything, then I would love to see Renegade X as a game with more strategic/"realistic" gameplay like in the classic Battlefield titles, but embedded in the Renegade C&C gamemode with tiberium harvesting and base destruction (and maybe even construction)

...

Obviously, this is an entirely different discussion, so I would like to draw a bottom line here and stress that my "foolish" suggestion about weapon spread should be considered only within greater balance changes to gameplay, e.g. reduced infantry (&vehicle?) agility and/or higher damage per shot.

Anyway, back to topic...

Protecting field repairs from snipers by shifting this function over to vehicles reduces the strategic roles of infantry to support / counter vehicles.

 

Thanks.

[Madkill40]

2 hours ago, DarkSn4ke said:

that doesn't make any sense at all

Why should a scoped hit cause more damage than an unscoped

The difference between causing an exterior fleshwound (without scope) and a precise shot which is more likely to kill or cause severe injury. (with scope)

No matter how skilled a sniper, you're still going to have difficulty hitting your target precisely where you need to hit your target without a scope. Weapon spread is shit, so if it is possible a 'no-scope' handicap would be a better alternative. (If linking player zoom to a damage variable is possible)

A Ramjet would still instakill free and T1 infantry by headshot without scope, but T2 infantry would take two headshots without scope; T3 infantry 4 headshots without scope.

For T2 Snipers, 8 headshots to kill T3 Infantry without scope, T2 infantry 4 headshots without scope, T1 infantry 2 headshots without scope but free infantry; Engi & Grenedier/flame won't survive a headshot, rifleman and shotgunner will only just survive with 10% health.

There's your sniper balance right there, if you can't out-strafe a sniper using a scope at close range then you'll have earned that bullet.

[Sn4ke]

I know we're talking about a game here... but there's no difference in a precisely aimed (scoped) hit and a random hit. The result is the same (if you hit the same part of the target...)

[Madkill40]

3 minutes ago, DarkSn4ke said:

 The result is the same (if you hit the same part of the target...)

My point is that without using a scope there is very little chance of that happening. Therefore handicap.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Madkill40

[RoundShades]

Team Fortress 2 adds damage when scoped. Not sure if I like anything like that. I was just suggesting why we need a mechanic, to balance something that already has numbers.

Just wondering if 500 and 1k, should even be able to 1 hit kill equal cost classes, and I know I'm saying this for the umpteenth time. Engineers and hotwires have exceptionally low health, but why do they headshot kill everything else from full hp?

[Hohndo]

On 4/25/2017 at 3:20 PM, Madkill40 said:

This poi and boi bandwagon needs to frikken stop.

Blaming a player or two is NOT the reason you're an upset little wanker brat that needs an extra type of vehicle to stop you from being sniped because you think standing clear as day in the field will keep you safe.

A repair vehicle would need to be able to be two-shotted by a Sydney/Raveshaw, making it just a clunky useless heap of a vehicle clogging up the vehicle count. Take cover behind the vehicles where you most likely expect a sniper to be shooting from, is the sniper shooting from behind your teams' lines? Alert your team and go after the bastard! But as you are only repairing vehicles it shouldn't be difficult to ponder where snipers are going to shoot you from, situational awareness is pretty important so keep ducking, sprinting, strafing and covering your ass to keep out of their sights.

"But I do do that and I still get shot and boo to the hoo..."

Clearly not doing it right.

If for the third time you get sniped, stop doing repairs (after the third time you should know their whereabouts) and hunt the snipers down because hunting down those snipers is clearly going to be more beneficial to your team than repairing vehicles.

I'll make this point again, blaming other players is not a valid defense or feasible in a discussion to get anything added/changed.

I don't know much about boi? I'm very rarely killed by boi..so I can't say if this about him.

It's not really a band wagon for me, man. Haven't really discussed it with anyone else.

Snipers can be abused, wether by skill or hacking, it doesn't matter. They shouldn't be as capable as they are, under any circumstance.

I'm just trying to think of things to work around them without drastically changing how they work. I'd rather see a buff to other elements of the game, then a need on snipers.

Obviously, this is not a viable option so I'm just going to drop it.

I'm not against poi or anyone else but what they are capable of doing with a sniper highlights a problem, and that's what I'm trying to resolve.

I don't know what to do, I just wanted some thoughtful discussion.

I'm actually debating on suggesting some substantial changes in how the game works but I don't think it'd go over well with the purists that want to keep it similar to the original game.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Hohndo

[vandal33]

sounds like a good idea