Regarding the altered properties of the EMP Grenade in Patch v5.29

[limsup]

Disclaimer: I have considered to write about this, to the pre-existing topic of „Balancing of EMP-Grenades  (against mines)” but was advised to start a separate thread, as according to my personal observation, the phenomenon I wish to discuss has gained increased significance after the latest, v5.29 Patch.

Abstract: According to my recent observations (post v5.29 Patch), the EMP Grenade’s functions potency regarding to clearing enemy mines has increased rather drastically. I would like to hear the Community’s opinion on the possible implications of this matter.

 

Yesterday, as we were playing with the now updated version of Renegade-X, on the map titled “Snow”, as a Nod Technician, I took on the initiative to mine the Nod base (on that particular map consisting of Hand-of-Nod and Air Strip). The level had a mine limit of 15, which was – in my personal opinion – sufficient. Only 10 minutes have elapsed, and I witnessed a massive and abrupt decline in the mine count. I did run through the release notes previously, and immediately became suspicious of the EMP Grenade (I did not witness it first visually, as I was busy repairing vehicles in the tunnel). Then in a short time, it has happened again! It seemed, that no matter how often I re-mine the front entrance of the Hand-of-Nod, the mines keep disappearing en-masse.

When I finally assessed the situation, I began to reposition the mines further from the front door, hoping to exceed the range of the stray EMP Grenade. I did not succeed. This has led to me conducting a few experiments on Constructive Tyranny’s Testing Server. With the help of Initiate, we took on to assess the precise effects of the EMP Grenade on Hand-of-Nod, with different mine-formations.

The default mine-layout was the following.

The first EMP Grenade, thrown directly from the first step of the building, hitting the front door (which was closed) immediately took out all the mines from the front door, to the door-post near the Master Control Terminal (the one that’s closer to the buildings rear). In this case the number of mines laid, and then disarmed was seven. Repeating the experiment, this time from the rear door of the building concluded with all mines being disarmed to the line of the Master Control Terminal. In a third run, I have intentionally left the Hand-of-Nod’s front door open, and Initiate, my assistant has threw the grenade inside. The result was that 14 out of 18 mines placed throughout the entire lateral (inner) length of the building were disarmed.

Conclusion: at the current state of things, EMP Grenades are EXTREMELY effective against Proximity-C4 mines. I infer, that most(!) of the Buildings could be rid of mines with the maximum of 2 (3 at most) EMP Grenades. I believe this leaves us with two options: strongly revise defensive strategies (with the marginalization of mines), or fine-tune the EMP-Grenades for a more balanced effect (range / max. number of mines affected / disarm effect attenuating on the periphery of the explosion range).

I would welcome your thoughts on this!

[boxes]

EMP grenades were buffed against mines in 5.283, because of how easy it was to nullify a rush by simply repairing the mines. The repair rate on mines is considerably faster than the disarm rate. As defenders, you need to be familiar with the behavior of EMP grenades, and as you mentioned revising the defensive strategy, placing mines in unpredictable places is also a thing. 

[Luhrian]

Sometimes I would even say, that the EMP Grenade need too long to disarm some mines.

[limsup]

3 hours ago, CampinJeff said:

EMP grenades were buffed against mines in 5.283, because of how easy it was to nullify a rush by simply repairing the mines. The repair rate on mines is considerably faster than the disarm rate. As defenders, you need to be familiar with the behavior of EMP grenades, and as you mentioned revising the defensive strategy, placing mines in unpredictable places is also a thing. 

Understood, still, it's hard for many of us to repair mines concurrently on the top and bottom levels of HoN... Should ask my thesis advisor, who has a PhD. in Quantum Mechanics about quantum-entangling the mines, so I would have to repair only one! Or how fun would it be, if the mine's position would be determined randomly within the building on predefined spots like Schrödinger's Cat, when stepped upon such a spot 

Jokes aside - not every player is gifted with extraordinary reflexes and speed as what you have clearly demonstrated. The purpose of mines (I think) is that of nullifying infantry (single person or rushes). For the time being we will have to be more observant of our surroundings and more creative in layouts. I accept your argument.

@Luhrian Pre- or post patch?

Edited April 24, 2017 by limsup

[RoundShades]

Honestly, with the ability to penetrate walls, I can still dig as fast as it repairs late-veterancy, to be limited to a smaller range. Just saying.

It's still kind of weird that you CAN repair mines, but a single person (mind it eliminates them from the game by just camping emp-spam) isn't going to be able to stop every building from being EMP'd. Even on Field, if you constantly EMP the wf/pp, and they camp it, then you do the AGT, and then constantly randomize which building, then they can't get to the mines in time to save the mines.

Another honest point, is that vehicle disable range, is literally point blank, with a massive delay. Need to be a little less point blank, at least 1/5th the disarm range, or would that be admitting the disarm range is too large?

[Madkill40]

Did the disarm range and disable range get mixed up? 

It would be fairer if an EMP grenade had a maximum amount of mines it could affect which changed with veterancy. i.e. Recruit Emp > Max of 2 mines, Veteran > Max of 4 mines, Elite > Max of 6 mines, Heroic > No max [Unlimited] | The disarm range could also be reduced for Recruit, Veteran and Elite.

If the buildings' walls could stop EMP blasts then there wouldn't be much of an issue but as it stands so long as an EMP is near the AirTower or the side of the HoN, a majority of mines (if not all mines) are disarmed with just one EMP grenade.

[RoundShades]

3 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

If the buildings' walls could stop EMP blasts then there wouldn't be much of an issue but as it stands so long as an EMP is near the AirTower or the side of the HoN, a majority of mines (if not all mines) are disarmed with just one EMP grenade.

Rather the range, than the wall penetration. Unless it ignores at LEAST doors, and even then, hugging one mine to each side of door, means one mine always survives.

Range was buffed, before it ignored walls. Now that it does for realzies, it probably doesn't need all that range.

Really, it's disarm range, needs to be it's disable range. It's disable range, needs to be like 1.5 of it's disable range. EMPs make little sense to me, they were having trouble finding their place, but that was before they worked right. Now that no impact-detonation, no instant-detonation, and no wall-blocked disarm, it doesn't need a short-arse disable range and a long-arse disarm range.

Btw, with it's disable range as it's disarm range, it could still diffuse 12-mine minefields from structure-door to MCT, as long as they are clustered from door to MCT or in front of a grassy chokepoint like in Under or XMountain or Field. If it had limited mine number of effect, it wouldn't be able to clear last-structure-standing cluster-fuck minefields (EMPs were the half-arse solution to them, rather than reducing mine limit per structure killed).

[Madkill40]

6 hours ago, YagiHige said:

 If it had limited mine number of effect, it wouldn't be able to clear last-structure-standing cluster-fuck minefields (EMPs were the half-arse solution to them, rather than reducing mine limit per structure killed).

Even if it's not the last structure but the first structure in some cases those 6 mines are quite vital to having an effect at least against the two units trying to infiltrate a building and unless that unit with the EMP is an Elite it would be nice if they couldn't remove every mine. 

Even at late games where there's one building there's usually a few units with EMPs around. 

[RoundShades]

3 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

but the first structure in some cases those 6 mines are quite vital

Wuutt??? 6 mines at a single entrance, was bad even for EKT Marathon pre-minebuff.

If the range was nerfed, it couldn't diffuse 2 doors at once. Maybe Barracks, which is essentially one double-door if you think about it.

If there are 6+ mines at a single door, the EMP is doing it's one job. A RepairGun is asking a lot of someone to get through the mines, and so is a "6 man team with 3 players sacrificing on the mines so 3 more can get in". That's over 1/3 a team in most instances.

[Madkill40]

On 5/1/2017 at 5:45 PM, YagiHige said:

Wuutt??? 6 mines at a single entrance, was bad even for EKT Marathon pre-minebuff.

If the range was nerfed, it couldn't diffuse 2 doors at once. Maybe Barracks, which is essentially one double-door if you think about it.

If there are 6+ mines at a single door, the EMP is doing it's one job. A RepairGun is asking a lot of someone to get through the mines, and so is a "6 man team with 3 players sacrificing on the mines so 3 more can get in". That's over 1/3 a team in most instances.

I'll be more specific, the Nod Air-Tower. 

You also make a good point about the GDI Barracks.

[RoundShades]

The Nod Airtower is also a single door really, considering mine limits don't allow you to doublemine it, meaning you mine near the MCT, a single spot anyway.

I don't see why it should arbitrarily choose 2 out of 6 mines in the area, disarm them, and then you can run randomly into some that were in-area but didn't, and explode anyway.

How do "multiple EMP" react in that case? If the same EMPs pick the same mines, can 3 emps diffuse 2 mines, and 4 mines STILL BE ALIVE after 3 emps?

EDIT: Also, we've been through this in another thread, but AirTower ease is balanced because lack of stealth, Barracks bottlenecks are balanced because of stealth, HoN and WF are balanced against each other, but Air and Bar are balanced against each other in GDI's favor because GDI can't be invisible.

[Fffreak9999]

5 hours ago, YagiHige said:

EDIT: Also, we've been through this in another thread, but AirTower ease is balanced because lack of stealth, Barracks bottlenecks are balanced because of stealth, HoN and WF are balanced against each other, but Air and Bar are balanced against each other in GDI's favor because GDI can't be invisible.

Definately not the case on Flying Maps compared to Non-Flying.

[RoundShades]

4 hours ago, Fffreak9999 said:

Definately not the case on Flying Maps compared to Non-Flying.

Depends on the map. On Walls, the Weps Fact roof with sniper cover, is a nuke beacon kiss of death. If a PoiBoi happens to be on that plateau with anything hitscan past 3000 ingame units, then it's simply not getting disarmed.

In any case, Nod has plenty of options for multi-jeopardy on flying maps. GDI simply gets a "porous floodable HoN". That hardly changes the situation with EMPs. If anything, it just means on Under, Nod should be able to reach the gosh darn Weps Fact from the infantry path without a smoke and with acceptable AGT damage.

[Madkill40]

The 2 mines is for recruits throwing EMPs to be fair. Vet gets 4. Elite 6. Heroic unlimited.

[limsup]

The following post perhaps accentuates my previous findings:

10 hours ago, djlaptop said:

I was just playing a long game of Lakeside on the Dragon server. I was GDI and the game was pretty even, both teams were down to HON/Bar. I had already taken out the Nod turrets with a MRLS but the GDI guard towers were still up.

Anyhow, I grabbed a Sydney and snuck to the roof of the (destroyed) Nod refinery. Over and over again, I threw my EMP grenade at the HON and defused all the mines, only to watch the Nod team scramble to try to find me, and re-place the mines. I was Elite so the EMP regenerated before they could even replace all the mines, but I would wait for them to finish, then throw it again. This repeated for about 30 minutes while they clearly were making a great effort to find me, but they never did. In the meantime I was racking up thousands of credits and points.

All-in-all, it was pretty enjoyable. 10/10 would EMP again.

Have your opinions evolved in the light of this particular case, or over the past month?

[vandal33]

People can trace the blue throw line of EMP grenades, unless the grenadier is smart enough to pick the right time throwing when nobody's watching.

I just think EMP grenades need more use in disabling tanks.

[Sn4ke]

5 hours ago, vandal33 said:

I just think EMP grenades need more use in disabling tanks.

what do you have in mind?

e.g. reducing the delay will lead to certain vehicle classes being unable to escape from the EMP radius in time which is OP (imo). Players skill / driving abilities / combat awareness (last but not least: players own decisions!!) should outperform game mechanics.

no offense meant, was just an example. right now, I can't think of a slightest adjustment to the EMP (tank disabling) mechanicsm that wouldnt lead to some kind of unbalancing.

Even shifting the repair-speed-nerf introduced with the latest patch would be awkward now.

 

[Madkill40]

If an EMP grenade hits an enemy vehicle, does it detonate instantly?

[Sn4ke]

44 minutes ago, Madkill40 said:

If an EMP grenade hits an enemy vehicle, does it detonate instantly?

could be interesting,but wouldn't change much if the tanker can see the EMP in his fov flying towards him, though "close combat" EMP & throws from the side / behind / top etc. would become much more effective

Some players are incredibly good with throwing EMPs, others just..... fail.

some weeks ago I've seem Wiz. tossing an EMP towards a flame tank, which was trying to drive over him in full speed (flat ground). Wiz. managed to throw the EMP so that the flame tank was excactly in the middle of the blast radius when it detonated (ofc it's the tankers fault here, but still a nice EMP)

Edited June 21, 2017 by DarkSn4ke

[yosh56]

13 hours ago, Madkill40 said:

If an EMP grenade hits an enemy vehicle, does it detonate instantly?

It did in beta 3 (4?) .... There were no vehicle rushes in those betas. None that were effective anyway.... unless the defending team was broke.