Refinery income

[boxes]

Refineries once destroyed makes the game extremely stale because you simply can't do anything with no money. Don't even get me started on no ref vs no ref. Silo control will be very difficult because you don't have any sort of income to back it up. 

Losing the harvester dumps and cutting the tick rate in half (+2 every second to +1 every second) I feel is (was, since it was like this before) enough and is more comparable to a 50% price increase destroyed PP. 

[Axesor]

This is one of those things that cant be figured out without testing it out so I cant really decide, and so I leave that vote for now. Your explanation seems reasonable, but there are another ways of getting credits so having 1c every 2s or 1s will not make much difference imo. It will defenitely speed up the game for both teams but just a little bit.

Having 1c every 2s is more punishing for losing a vehicle or an expensive character tho. Also may force ppl to use repars or play in team, hunt money crates... a liiitle bit more.. but everything that I've mentioned now is such a theoretical thing due to a tiny difference so it may not be even a truth.

[boxes]

It's actually a pretty big deal, doubling the income rate from a destroyed refinery. Just by standing around and doing nothing for 5 minutes, you get 300 credits as opposed to 150. Add on top of that such as repairs and damage, that's a difference between getting a hotwire instead of a rocket soldier. It halves the time of getting to your purchase goal. The problem is that, from what I've seen in the PUGs, is that destroyed refineries forces a team on the defensive. You can't build up anything substantial and every time you lose something it'll take ages to regain the income to get it back. 

My point is that games without refineries are unprogressive and boring because there's often no clear way to win against a team with income other than turtling while praying somebody gets super lucky with an infiltration kill. Games themselves as a whole are boring when there's no clear way to win, and the most common way to win games in Renegade is through use of credits, and limiting credits severely reduces your victory conditions.

Losing PP on the other hand is hardly noticeable because you still have the same credit potential as the other team. Losing Infantry or vehicles is less harsh because you still have the credits to pull off rushes given with whatever production structure you have. Removing credits restricts the potential of both production structures, takes ages to organize a rush (donate this person, donate that person, oh wait I gave you too much can you donate me back), and opens up very ragey circumstances: 

Ah, at last, literally 20 minutes later after bashing my head against a wall I can finally afford this sydney character! Sniped as soon as you step out of the barracks. Leave game. Never come back. 

[Boomer]

In classical Renegade:

No refinery: earn every cent the hard way

No power plant: double price

However, people even made comebacks after they lost both.

This is why some classical Renegade players call Renegade X players cry babies...

[RoundShades]

14 minutes ago, Boomer said:

In classical Renegade:

No refinery: earn every cent the hard way

No power plant: double price

However, people even made comebacks after they lost both.

This is why some classical Renegade players call Renegade X players cry babies...

With no credits whatsoever, those double-digit players can call whoever whatever they want, it doesn't change the fact that 100,000% more players give faster-paced games with sensible comeback mechanics a try. (League of Legends, Overwatch, Call of Duty, Battlefield)

Comebacks after severe losses aren't impossible. They are just simply not fun for any sane person to wait in hopes of. Renegade were for people of questionable sanity.

I'm not sure if Ref needs more credits. Most games I ever witness, only suffers if Ref was lost early. I'd accept an income boost, if the Ref did literally anything after 14 minutes into a game. Make it control the amount of credits you can store, or veterancy rate, or something, but it's literally useless after 14 minutes, everyone's rich at that point and will remain rich well up until veterancy lethality kicks in and ends the game.

Before 14 minutes, especially 2 minutes in, it can be vital, no ref, no defense of any sort, easy base wipe. Both teams losing it at 2 minutes, can stagnate a game, which is why, if anything, Silos should go back to 1 credit/tick, and every base-defense map has one of those things except Goldrush, and it could quite frankly use one.

Another important problem, is a team with a ref, can lose veterancy to an already rich team who lost their ref, because there's no longer a harvester to farm. Specifically on Gobi, applies to Field and Mesa and Under as well. There should be some periodic veterancy bonus equal to the harvester's kill every so often, or the harvester should no longer reward veterancy to a team who lost ref, or the harvester should only award veterancy to a team who's behind in score. Something.

[boxes]

1 hour ago, Boomer said:

In classical Renegade:

No refinery: earn every cent the hard way

No power plant: double price

However, people even made comebacks after they lost both.

This is why some classical Renegade players call Renegade X players cry babies...

In the pug games I witnessed only 1 game where a team made a comeback from being down a refinery, but it came down to pure luck. A comeback scenario is far more possible with any other structure loss than the refinery. 

In general there's just no way you can counter a non-stop tank force backed with 1k infantry and dedicated defenders with no income. The building armor/damage point decrease that happened around 5.1 made repairing buildings less rewarding towards earning credits as well. 

[Sn4ke]

6 hours ago, YagiHige said:

There should be some periodic veterancy bonus equal to the harvester's kill every so often, or the harvester should no longer reward veterancy to a team who lost ref, or the harvester should only award veterancy to a team who's behind in score. Something.

periodic bonus: do nothing but wait to be Vet/Elite? [it's currently possible too...  armor break / building kill / harvy kill - team bonuses, but that depends on the team..]  veterany should be earned even if it's done by teammates

no-vet-reward-for-teams-without-ref: what? killing enemies harvester is good to get cash & vet and hamper the enemy.. it's a good way to make up for the loss of the Refinery.

behind in score: score is only important in AOW - even if you're 10k behind in points ýou might be able to win certain Marathon maps - so the score leading team gets punished to lead in score?

hmmm I think it depends on the map. if the team is able to farm enough crates to get new tanks / units / cash / spies - they are still able to do anything they want...

I agree with @Axesor the loss of refinery should be a punishment and force players to question their actions (which vehicle / unit is really needed now)

but could this be tested at a PUG game?

[Sire]

I'll take the destroyed Refinery giving +1 credits per second.

I find the main purpose of the Refinery is to obtain a burst of credits when the Harvester unloads. Passive income can be tied into the game mechanics and allow low to average skilled players a chance to buy something and still have some fun instead of running around as a Free Infantry all day.

Sure, having lower income will increase the skill ceiling and make purchases more valuable, but I'm willing to vote for easier passive income as it eases the burden of a destroyed Refinery. We already have "partial availability" to Infantry and and Vehicle structures, so why not the Refinery with credit ticks?

[Axesor]

Isnt it just a matter of mutator?

@CampinJeff you may not agree with me, but it's such a thing that is on very subjective level. For example for me, I had never problem with earning credits and destroyed REF was hardly noticeable for me. I cant say if the change will do good until it's tested So Iam not for it, neither against. If ppl dont like to die with free infantry to get money really quick, well sadly it's their problem and so they deserve this low credits for doing nothing. I would rather remove death count from scoreboard, it will have very possitive psychlogical effect, and it would encourage ppl's activity greatly.