A clear list of which actions are legal and which are not

[Quinc3y]

So we all know that in Renegade X there's a lot of debatable plays one can pull off. Some of these are considered glitches and are illegal on all servers (getting vehicles on infantry-only zones) while some are tolerated or even considered natural (jumping into airstrip tower on flying maps).

The examples I gave above are kind of extreme, but there's a lot of actions that cause confusion and their legality depends on the server/admin of the server that you ask/the mood of that admin. 

So, to sort things out and to prevent myself & other players from whining that the other team should not have done this or that because it's a glitch, I'd like to request that a CT admin (or maybe even make a game-wide rule set for that? Idk if it's realistic) clarifies all the controversial actions and states which are allowed and which aren't.

To list some of such:

- flaming humvee/buggy

- flame tanks firing through the back of barracks

- invisible remotes on a stank

- hiding beacons inside the lights at the end of airstrip

- driving some vehicles (like Nod APC) backwards down the hill for highly increased speed

- invisible (thus not disarmable) mines at HoN MCT on some maps

- partly invisible (disarmable) mines at HoN MCT on some maps

- climbing building stairs on the outter side of the railing

- placing beacons that partly blend into the walls of GDI PP (still disarmable)

- same as above when you blend beacons inside no-collision rocks where you can only see bits of them - there's a spot like this on Snow next to WF front door

- disarming beacons through the wall of a building (can be easily done in WF)

- Walls: entering Nod base with tanks by jumping the wall on the airstrip side

- Whiteout: infiltrating Nod base by walking out of the map (https://youtu.be/7AtBrmhozjw?t=826). I think there's a similar path to GDI ref as well.

- Gobi: b2b sniping

- Under: jumping on top of Nod PP

- Complex: hitting HoN from just in front of the GDI base (central part) with gunners/rocket soldiers/MRLS

And there's probably many more that I didn't think of here. Also I didn't list the ones that I consider fairly obvious (like b2b airstrikes on Islands).

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by Quincy

[Henk]

Maybe we should also look into it if some of these things can be fixed. Most of them seem collision related. And some caused by vehicle physics.

I do like some of these obscure tricks (backwards APC, airstrip light) but it's not really fair to do it in my opinion.

[vandal33]

harvester walking

beacons inside a building

random spraying at friendly infantry to detect spies easily

[Guest Gliven]

Quote

36 minutes ago, vandal33 said:

harvester walking

beacons inside a building

random spraying at friendly infantry to detect spies easily

 

i wouldn't call these glitches or abuse of any kind really. unless you meant the beacon is placed inside a wall where it cant be disarmed.

[Agent]

 

Quote

1. Hacking: Collect at least some evidence, temp-ban, then report the ban so that it can be elevated to a permanent ban.
2. Cheating or Severe Glitching: Kill/Warn the user, and slowly escalate as necessary.
3. Harassment/Bigotry: Warn the user, and slowly escalate as necessary.

...

Things that would not be actively moderated:

• Base-to-Base
• Glitched beacons
• Wall hopping
• Other minor glitches or incidents
• Team hampering

Those are the guidelines for global moderation. Severe glitching might include things like "sniping from off the level", "getting an orca under the map", or "getting vehicles on the infantry path". The rest is left up to individual servers, though most things that aren't glitch nukes are okay. RenX doesn't really need much moderation, and I honestly think it's fine as it is.

We're not really interested in heavily moderating servers globally, and it's extremely unlikely to be expanded.

[boxes]

The weight difference and controls between the APCs makes up for the backward driving. GDI's weighs like a mammoth tank while Nod's weighs like an arty, meaning GDI APCs are ideal body blockers for any vehicle rush, as they are relatively cheap and have decent heavy armor (When Nod APC attempts to block a GDI APC, it doesn't go well). GDI's are also far more maneuverable and easier to drive. 

And afaik all of these are "ok" to do, but just frowned upon except the ones that make you get on top of buildings with no ramps. The beacon models must be at least visible and disarmable. 

[vandal33]

3 hours ago, Gliven said:

i wouldn't call these glitches or abuse of any kind really. unless you meant the beacon is placed inside a wall where it cant be disarmed.

I know. I always do all those but sometimes the other team called me out for taking advantages of them, so I thought these are also frowned-upon tactics. I remember taking out a hand of nod by placing a beacon inside the building (near the mct) and one guy from the other team said "what kind of noob plants beacon inside of buildings..." and starts complaining it was just luck having the beacon placed at an unexpected spot.

Also, what about jumping through the airstrip tower windows. The first time I learned about it is when a guy does that at Eyes and getting insulted for exploiting a glitch. I've been doing it as well after that. (since the guy who taught me that said it's not wrong and dared people to complain about him at the forums).

[Fffreak9999]

Hi All

In terms of what I would say require moderation (at least on CT).

 

- Flaming humvee/buggy (Not an issue - It requires active participation by 1+ people, and consumes a vehicle in the process, so doesn't outbalance the gain or maybe destroying a Guard Tower/Turret)

- Flame tanks firing through the back of barracks (And to a lesser extent C4 hitting through walls) - While this is annoying, there is not much that can be done about this at a Server level, even moderating this is infeasible since the buildings allow this to occur (not just the barracks), this would need to be changed at Overall Game level to really have an effect.

- invisible remotes on a stank - This can't be moderated, as the game is what causes this, not the players.

- Hiding beacons inside the lights at the end of airstrip - No need to moderate since it can be detected and countered, it is annoying but perfectly disarmable.

- Driving some vehicles (like Nod APC) backwards down the hill for highly increased speed - It would need to changed at game level to not be used, and as such will not be moderated

- Invisible (thus not disarmable) mines at HoN MCT on some maps - Not going to be moderated, since the mines are placed in a legitimate area, the fact

- Partly invisible (disarmable) mines at HoN MCT on some maps - Again not going to be moderated

- Climbing building stairs on the outter side of the railing - Not going to be moderated, there are preventative mining precautions that will stop this if players feel like this tactic will be used (using no more mines than is normally permitted)

- Placing beacons that partly blend into the walls of GDI PP (still disarmable) - Where the beacon is truely disarmable, it will not be actioned, but if it lands at a undisarmable location, and moderators should disarm it.

- Same as above when you blend beacons inside no-collision rocks where you can only see bits of them - there's a spot like this on Snow next to WF front door - No collision rocks should be reported to the Map Creator, and then collision can be added. Until that time, the beacon if undisarmable will be disarmed by moderators.

- Disarming beacons through the wall of a building (can be easily done in WF) - Again, very little can be done to stop this outside of building changes made to the main game.

- Walls: entering Nod base with tanks by jumping the wall on the airstrip side - GDI also faces the same issue with NOD units doing the same.

- Whiteout: infiltrating Nod base by walking out of the map (https://youtu.be/7AtBrmhozjw?t=826). I think there's a similar path to GDI ref as well. - Nod can do this to GDI but much easier, SBH can make the journey undetected completely.  The map would need to be made to restrict this action, otherwise players are able to use it until then without punishment, as the map designer hasn't intentionally restricted it (and it doesn't break the gameplay greatly)

- Gobi: b2b sniping (B2B should not be accepted and should be reported to moderators, I will put an announcement in the bot to remind people of this, but the map creator needs to change the map slightly to prevent this action as much as possible)

- Under: jumping on top of Nod PP - This can be prevented by blocking volume over the PP on non-flying maps. Anyone found abusing this will be dealt with my moderators.

- Complex: hitting HoN from just in front of the GDI base (central part) with gunners/rocket soldiers/MRLS - Depends on exact position, but if you have any examples, we can look at if it counts as b2b (and could do with map changes) or if legal.

[ex_member]

...

Edited September 22, 2018 by ex_member

[Quinc3y]

 

Thank you for all the quick responses!

22 hours ago, Fffreak9999 said:

This can't be moderated, as the game is what causes this, not the players.

I don't really understand this sentence. I can see that some of these glitches cannot be (easily) fixed, but why can't they be moderated - as in prohibited This question applies to many of the points you made, fffreak.

Also, I personally think that every beacon that is placed with the intention of being blended into textures (and the same with proxy c4) shouldn't be allowed and should be disarmed by mods. Even if you can technically disarm such a beacon with a repair gun/tool, sometimes it's extremely hard, because you can only see its top or whatever. Once again, it's the intention that matters. Just a suggestion for admins to consider.

22 hours ago, Fffreak9999 said:

- Walls: entering Nod base with tanks by jumping the wall on the airstrip side - GDI also faces the same issue with NOD units doing the same.

How? You can't do it on GDI side afaik.

 

[Fffreak9999]

You can definately achieve the same effect on the GDI side, although not quite as easily.

And as for beacons being blended into textures, in the case of HON, how are you to know who to disarm since if a mine is untargetable, you don't know who planted it, and also do you want to risk disarming ALL a potential player's C4 when a player could quite easily end up invading in that short time.

The only way to prevent this is to update the HON's collision for these locations.

However for other locations, so long as they are disarmable, there is no problem, even if they are annoying, if they prove game breaking, pass the info onto the Devs or the Map creator, since they are the only ones who are allowed to change it.

The key fact is as follows:

Server moderation will only happen when things are completely unable to be dealt with by normal players.

You may argue that the HON issue falls under that, however the mines can be dealt with, albeit awkwardly, using an EMP grenade.

[Quinc3y]

All right then. I would certainly set more harsh rules if I was an admin, but it's you deciding.

Thank you for the input, I will be quoting this thread whenever someone accuses me of glitching and will try to keep calm the next time Jeff kills my hotwire with invisible mines in HoN

[Guest Gliven]

Quote

1 hour ago, Quincy said:

How? You can't do it on GDI side afaik.

 

Don't underestimate the climbing ability of the stank

[Guest Gliven]

also for the driving backwards down the hill. Say you are a nod apc on whiteout on the top of the hill...you see 3 meds coming after you. Are you going to stop and turn around and drive forwards down the hill because you are afraid of a moderator kicking you? or are you just going to drive backwards like a normal person. How are you going to moderate something like that. The only way to stop "spood beasting" is to fix the bug that causes it.

[Agent]

23 minutes ago, Quincy said:

All right then. I would certainly set more harsh rules if I was an admin, but it's you deciding.

Over-moderation is far from desirable, and can destroy a game. In fact, I wouldn't even moderate base-to-base. CT's rules are more or less spot on though.

It's a game -- as long as you're not intentionally trying to ruin other peoples' fun, you shouldn't find yourself kicked or banned from any server on any game. Many games/communities do very poorly in this area, or offer disproportionate responses to player activity (i.e: a ban when only a mute is necessary).

[Novilan]

I think most of the items on Quincy's list, especially the collision related glitches, should be fixed as soon as possible, because they can often take the fun out of a game.

And in conclusion no moderation would be needed anymore. 

On 2.10.2016 at 3:24 PM, Henk said:

I do like some of these obscure tricks (backwards APC, airstrip light) but it's not really fair to do it in my opinion.

In my opinion these 'tricks' are utterly stupid and just annoying.

[Quinc3y]

@Gliven The only real possible use of the backwards driving glitch is Nod APC rushing on Under. If you drive normally, you can only reach AGT, but if you drive backwards, you can reach WF & ref.  But yeah, this one is not a big problem to me.

@Agent I see that this is a game, but at the same time it is competitive. Most of the times I play to win and some of these glitches are game changing. Imagine the frustration after you manage to sneak into HoN after 30 minutes of trying and then you run into invisible mines in the floor. Or: a close game where both teams try hard is decided by a nuke that is partly blended into a rock and you have to stand still while disarming, which results in the disarming people getting sniped. This is "intentionally ruining other people's fun" - in this case, the fun of the people that are playing to win.

[Agent]

Mines in the HoN floor are kind of cheesy and should be fixed, but they're really not worth moderating.

Yes, I would say a glitched nuke is indeed "intentionally ruining other people's fun", and as freak pointed out they're against CT's rule set -- which I agree with. Server moderators should disarm glitched/undisarmable/invisible beacons and warn the player. That's a very proportionate response. However, a permanent ban for example would be a disproportionate response for any glitch. Glitches get fixed, they're temporary, and they're not an egregious form of cheating. Glitches can also occur unintentionally or unknowingly that it's considered a glitch. It'd be a bit unfair to kick someone or disarm all of their mines just because their mines fused into the HoN's mesh for example, if that wasn't their intention. It's also very difficult to prove many accusations of glitching unless somebody happens to be recording.

It's extremely difficult to moderate glitching. That's part of why I prefer a lenient policy over a strict one any day.

[vandal33]

3 hours ago, Denuvian said:

In my opinion these 'tricks' are utterly stupid and just annoying.

Stupid and annoying are opinion-biased. I don't know many glitches but I find it not a problem if people are doing it against me as long as it doesn't break the game (like disarm-proof beacons). If it's a problem, fix the game not the players.

About planting in airstrip lights, it's just taking advantage of making the enemy harder to disarm it, not impossible.. If anyone has the ability to do it without breaking the game, it's not cheating / unfair.

[RoundShades]

On 10/2/2016 at 2:49 PM, Fffreak9999 said:

- Gobi: b2b sniping (B2B should not be accepted and should be reported to moderators, I will put an announcement in the bot to remind people of this, but the map creator needs to change the map slightly to prevent this action as much as possible)

Gobi was basically a copy-paste from old Renegade, aye? Then wasn't it designed like this? I was fairly certain it is intentional, as:
1) Everyone does it, 3 people per team, every match. Moderating this, would be "turning the server off and back on".
2) No buildings can be hit through opening. Not even doorways.
3) Both teams have sniper cover specifically at that vantage point.
4) TrainingYard had this "problem" and if you want to ban HackerHam or Dr.Schrott or Ks.ol then I might actually play more because I hate snipers by default. I'd rather them be able to play though, they're sort of dedicated players and we can't go banning every player "that frustrates me because they kill me".
5) You aren't consistent. Firing through walls with flame tank, the "game allows this" so it is approved. A map of very intentional design, nobody "forgot a rock" or placed a visible asset that you can walk through, they made an intentional opening... bans for all who use "doors", doors gamebreaking, dooring is against rules.

Honestly, airstrip light beacons are hard to get a moderator to look at, people do that all day till the cows come home, and nobody does anything to discourage it. Dislike.

[Fffreak9999]

@YagiHige the game allows players to shoot through the wall, and there is not much a moderator can do at that state, since what are you going to do. Kill that player? Your actions at that point could make or break a rush's chance of success, since the player is attacking, and the fact is you (if you are on the GDI) you would be accused of abuse of moderation powers

[RoundShades]

5 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

@YagiHige the game allows players to shoot through the wall, and there is not much a moderator can do at that state, since what are you going to do. Kill that player? Your actions at that point could make or break a rush's chance of success, since the player is attacking, and the fact is you (if you are on the GDI) you would be accused of abuse of moderation powers

Shooting through walls is definitely a no-no (and wasn't possible from what I was aware), I am assuming culling makes walls stop rendering and allow client-side hit-detection to run rampant? If so, that is day-ban worthy.

I was specifically, talking about, standing behind the 4-prong tank-trap, and shooting players in the opposite base around their 4-prong tank-trap. There's an open line of sight for a reason, there's no rock there, just a hole in the rock face, specifically to snipe from and for infantry to travel.

[Fffreak9999]

It only allows the Flame Tank to do so at extreme close range (Directly next to it).

[RoundShades]

Oh, no, we are scrambling priorities. Flame tanks are pretty brutal being allowed to kill repairmen inside of buildings because fuck the system. It can be done with other tanks too, it has been done with them, and I am starting to feel much more sympathetic to those doing it with med tanks because fuck flame tanks doing it.

My priorities, was base to basing on Gobi. The map is literally designed for it. If you are going to not-moderate anything, it should be that. Honestly, I'd do it out of principle that I know I'm playing the map as intentionally designed, both a decade ago, and today. If I were kicked, I'd definitely not feel anything resembling remorse, and would move on with my day unphased.

[Novilan]

16 hours ago, vandal33 said:

Stupid and annoying are opinion-biased. I don't know many glitches but I find it not a problem if people are doing it against me as long as it doesn't break the game (like disarm-proof beacons). If it's a problem, fix the game not the players.

About planting in airstrip lights, it's just taking advantage of making the enemy harder to disarm it, not impossible.. If anyone has the ability to do it without breaking the game, it's not cheating / unfair.

Opinion-biased? Ok, then I will try to be more objectively, lol.

Is it logical that only an APC and only backwards can drive that fast? NO...

Is it logical that you can place a static object like a beacon in another static object like a specific rock or a lamp? NO...

I think it's not fair, because it provides an advantage due to its illogicality, especially regarding unexperienced players. There are always people here talking about attracting new players to the game and to keep people playing it for a higher playerbase, but bugs/glitches like these which are exploited a lot surely won't help, because people will think that it's "stupid".

And I already mentioned above that I think it should be fixed game-wise, so that It's not possible to do anymore, because there will always be players exploiting these as long as it's possible.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Denuvian

[Madkill40]

A thin blocking volume inside the barracks might help but if the barrel(s) can still poke through the volume then it may have no effect. 

If the barrel is colliding through a wall of some kind then it should disable the firing mechanism.

In any case, crouching usually helps.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Madkill40

[Fffreak9999]

Quote

Is it logical that only an APC and only backwards can drive that fast? NO...

The Nod APC isn't the only vehicle capable of doing this action, it just happens to be the sturdiest of the vehicles which can do it.

Quote

Is it logical that you can place a static object like a beacon in another static object like a specific rock or a lamp? NO...

In this case, the logical action would be to say no, however if they were to gain collision, vehicles would end up clipping the lamps on the strip and may be prevented from leaving it, due to the layout of the lamps, and as for landscape based ones, that is up to the map creator to fix, rather than the game being fixed.

Quote

If the barrel is colliding through a wall of some kind then it should disable the firing mechanism.

This is used on certain vehicles already such as the Medium Tank and Mammoth Tank(?), I remember Agent mentioning something about this before.

[Novilan]

23 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

In this case, the logical action would be to say no, however if they were to gain collision, vehicles would end up clipping the lamps on the strip and may be prevented from leaving it, due to the layout of the lamps, and as for landscape based ones, that is up to the map creator to fix, rather than the game being fixed.

And what about removing the runway lights?

But I'm at the point where I would even accept the clipping. 

[Fffreak9999]

The lights are removable at individual map level, but the Devs would need to consider removing the lights from the airstrip prefab in the SDK for anyone to really consider changing the maps in the future.

[Novilan]

Well, then that's the way to go in my opinion.

I don't think anyone cares that much about the lights if we can get rid of this glitch.

[CONTRA49]

How about admins or somebody doing more to enforce bans against aimbotters/wallhackers. It's happened so many times the past couple weeks. People with crazy k/d ratios and like 200+ ping. Constant headshots. I asked in another post, and did mod request in game, but nobody seems to care. It's either server admins doing it themselves, or they just don't care enough to bother checking or enforcing it. Or a combination of the above. We know how it works, just like any aimbot in any other FPS. It aims at the head of the closest player within a certain weapon range, you pull the trigger, rinse and repeat. Would like to see some more action taken here. 

I know you're just going to say;
"Some people are better than you"
"Your game must have lagged"
"They're both on Teamspeak, so they're co-ordinated"
"They see you on the map because of they have the Command Center"
"Stop sucking" 
etc...

But it's bs. It's so easy to tell when they're cheating. The most obvious one is when someone gets Laser Chain Gunner and just holds down fire, while the aimbot spins them around aiming for the head of player after player, and you see laser light show like crazy. I know LCG does good damage, but headshot after headshot and instantly targeting player after player is so obvious. Just do something about it so we can play fairly.

[boxes]

There was insufficient evidence in the demos to take any form of action. Please bring this up in either another topic or through private messaging with the moderators and devs. 

[Sn4ke]

up to now my map testing activity was focused on WIP maps and not the regular map pool.

as most glitches are map related (or can be prevented by mappers. e.g. small collisions to prevent stair glitching) we'll publish a list of:

a) Primary: gameplay crucial bugs / glitches - e.g. sneak exploits or nuke spots

b) Secondary: stuck places - minor bugs etc.

c) Tertiary: graphic bugs - floating rocks / grass etc.

of the regular map pool to support the developers and enforce bug fixing in general.

 

## EDIT ##

I will make an own thread.... was just a comment on this thread

Edited October 22, 2016 by DarkSn4ke

[Fffreak9999]

@DarkSn4ke This should be in it's own thread, rather than this thread.