repair tool

[[TmX]Super-Kh]

so I want to talk about this "REPAIR" tool,it is somewhat a good feature,in case you don't want to buy a hotwire/tech,or even for saving buildings without losing your 1K charecter,good edition

but it's called : the "REPAIR" tool not defuse tool,I don't think it should be able to defuse stuff like mines,c4s or even beacons.

especially when it comes to sbh this tool is game breaking as there are low mine limits now ( don't fool me with : "they got more damage now" ) sbhs don't even have to touch mines,and if there is 3 sbhs each one of them takes a mine.

and as for beacons ? you said this update was ment to make each unit have a specific role,instead now a patch can grab a repair tool and defuse a beacon,while snipers can't hit him because he's too god damn fast.

so what I am asking for is to make the repair tool to "repair" only not to defuse,though I still appreciate all the efforts you do devs,KEEP IT COMING.

[Ryz]

I like your post Super, but... I am also lost somewhere in between what's good and what's wrong.

If I play GDI I hate the 'diffuse' tool

If I play Nod I like it

It really depends on the map. Get 5 sbh behind ref on walls, let 2 watch each sides and let 3 diffuse the mines to a few percent and than storm in... If I am GDI I hate this, if I am Nod I like this.

Above all I think it benefits Nod / stealth units more...

[RoundShades]

I can't be the only one that would both, watch a building explode into flames, and cop out via ragequit, before I would trade irreplaceable infantry with an engi to diffuse a beacon?

It isn't that bad with mines, mines could always be made to be a bit tougher to diffuse anyway.

[[TmX]Super-Kh]

well maybe certain charecter are only allowed to buy it ? because it's just waaaaaaaaay to anoying,especially on xmountain and walls

[RypeL]

Before we completly Remove the defuse ability from it i think it would be best to just disallow the Reptool from SBH first and see how that goes. SBH and rep tool don't mix and never will Regardless of a disarm time increase I think. Defusing mines and blowing up a building after should require you to sneak into the enemy base. But with a group of SBH you can basically just walk to the least frequently used enemy building entrance easily. This basically takes zero effort and then you just need a bit of luck that no enemy walks through that door while you defuse the mines. This seems wrong. SBH suprise nukes already make SBH strong enough as a base intruder so I think there would be no harm and only good in denying them the rep tool.

[Handepsilon]

Now I can't help but imagine engi vs SBH beacon repair/disarm tug of war

[boxes]

tbh I'm not a fan of restricting certain purchasable items/weapons to certain characters. That's why I supported the complete removal of sidearms rather than just to engies. It just...feels like a very cheap way of dealing with things.

[yosh56]

Still seeing almost no difference in how them disarming mines is OP when the last 4 betas all it took was the same 3 SBH breaking mines through the wall, taking minimal damage and walking in without ever unstealthing. THAT took no real risks. Sitting outside of a door, totally unstealthed for like 15 seconds is more dangerous than anything else.

As for tanking mines, nothings really changed...except SBH have to give up Half of their health now instead of like 20%

[Axesor]

RypeL's solution is soo cheap... Just make repair tool able to disarm only 1 mine when it's full charged so SBH infiltration will be as same effective as it was before the patch.

This patch needs a small tweaks, not restrictions.

[Idiotas]

tbh I'm not a fan of restricting certain purchasable items/weapons to certain characters. It just...feels like a very cheap way of dealing with things.

Still seeing almost no difference in how them disarming mines is OP when the last 4 betas all it took was the same 3 SBH breaking mines through the wall

This patch needs a small tweaks, not restrictions.

This.

[RypeL]

Restricting buyable weapons cpmpletly or atleast in their usefulness to certain classes based on their strength and intelligent values for instance or for other characteristics is a common thing in other games to balance stuff. A lot of people also just asked for just removing sidearms for engies. These are options and every option is allowed to be discussed.

I am surprised by this reactions and that you think this kind of SBH disarming thing is fine. Obviously not everyone thinks its fine as I've seen complaints about it here and elsewhere.

But I have no intention to fix something that isent broken so I will just keep observing.

[RoundShades]

Still seeing almost no difference in how them disarming mines is OP when the last 4 betas all it took was the same 3 SBH breaking mines through the wall, taking minimal damage and walking in without ever unstealthing. THAT took no real risks. Sitting outside of a door, totally unstealthed for like 15 seconds is more dangerous than anything else.

As for tanking mines, nothings really changed...except SBH have to give up Half of their health now instead of like 20%

To be honest, repair tool be damned, I scored a Bar kill on walls the other day, because other SBH wouldn't risk the door but I jumped off the roof ahead of them and couch-walked mines instead of letting them sit there waiting until it's too late.

You can still crouch walk 2 mines as SBH, meaning 3 can crouch-walk 6.

[Mystic~]

SBH, Mines & Repair Tool

What I like about the repair tool:

• 1. Disarm mines as other characters, albeit at an increased time/cost. (need more play time to be conclusive about this)

• 2. The ability for other characters to heal one another (I wouldn't be against some sort of health pickup/purchasable med-kit, but this seems to fit)

Since the new patch I've noticed GDI definitely spend a lot more time camping and running from building to building checking and replacing mines particularly on non-base defense maps.

I personally don't like that now any character can disarm C4, disarm/repair a beacon, repair buildings and vehicles. It just further diminishes the value of hotwires/techs/engineers who have just suffered from a serious nerf.

The repair tool has effectively turned everyone into a potential engineer and its impact on the game is similar albeit in a different way to having previously made powerful carbines and tiberium weapons available to every class. Instead of seeing defensive/support characters being in offensive roles, we're seeing offensive characters in defensive/supporting roles.

I think the player should still be required to make a calculated risk/loss assessment based on saving the building at the expense of sacrificing the character if nobody else is available.

Nod SBH rushes seem more successful for which I think there are a number of contributing factors that are not necessarily related to just the repair tool. But I do think the new addition favour Nod more than GDI.

SBH Contributing Factors

The increased SBH speed has enabled more to survive the infiltration process, escape if and when detected and generally remain undiscovered for longer inside the enemy base. They also traverse the battlefield much quicker getting from home to enemy base in much less time.

SBH are now capable of healing each other en route or out of view.

If careful SBH can assassinate the first person to respond with their silenced smg and they don't even need to make the investment they once did for purchasing a carbine.

More people seem to be prepared to risk disarming mines rather than risk absorbing mine damage.

In the past if a Hotwire busted a group of SBH doing a C4 rush, one or both remotes and a carbine finished them off because they were all at or close to half health.

Hotwire/Tech & Other Contributing Factors

They are still the main defensive character, but they no longer have a viable sidearm or the speed required to detect, chase down or kill intruders.

Hotwires/Engineers are really slow. (This is my overall main gripe with the patch).

Badly placed mines are even more detrimental to losing buildings than before due to the lower limit imposed.

I'm seeing a spike of new and returning players coincide with the new patch release which is great news - but this also means more people mining in unhelpful places and over-mining.

The lower vehicle limit now means there is often no vehicle scouting in and around the GDI base.

All of the above are having a cumulative effect resulting in more successful SBH attacks and more frequent attempts being made. I accept that in some instances it is likely the players responsibility to adapt to changes.

Proposed tweaks/improvements

• 
  [super]1*.[/super] Increase the disarm time of mines against repair tools/guns all round.
  [super]2*.[/super] Give Hotwires/Techs their speed back and equip them with a heavy pistol by default
  [super]3*.[/super] Have the Repair Tool disarm only a portion of a beacon - say 25%.
  [super]4*.[/super] Gives ALL members of a team the ability to disarm other team members misplaced mines.
  

1. It's very quick and easy to get inside a building once you've managed to sneak across open ground and often a player benefits more by making a brazen disarm attempt even whilst exposed. (aside: I haven't tested EMPs.)

2. This will also better maintain the improved distinction between them and the free engineer class.

3. I'm seeing engineers assisted by Mobious and other characters all with the repair tool equipped. Being able to kill the beacon defender(s) AND disarm with the same character seems a bit much.

4. This will avoid the necessity to p.m. "please disarm your mines because blah blah blah."

If none of the above help significantly then get rid of the repair tool.

[Idiotas]

I am surprised by this reactions and that you think this kind of SBH disarming thing is fine. Obviously not everyone thinks its fine as I've seen complaints about it here and elsewhere.

But I have no intention to fix something that isent broken so I will just keep observing.

It seems weird to have a restrictions for some characters while others cans use them just fine.

Either they have the repair tool or not. SBHs will still get in. If there are like 2 or 3 sbhs. They just eat the mines and are in the building.

If they use the repair tool, they will get exposured and can be easily spotted but... disarming mines takes like a few seconds. It's even faster than before. I guess you could make the mines to disarm slower and maybe bump up the minelimit a little bit. I think that will help the issue a bit more. Fiesn't hurt to try out stuff before characters get restrictions.

Repair tool or not, SBH will get in eventually.

[Idiotas]

I guess i'll post a few ideas.

1. Make mines slower to disarm and up the minelimit a bit.

2. Make the tool only to disarm beacons and repairing buildings (almost no one wants to change from a expensive character to engi/hotwire to repair a building or disarm a beacon)

3. Make it a one time use only (like after the 400 you can't use it anymore)

Will post more if i have time

[RypeL]

I am surprised by this reactions and that you think this kind of SBH disarming thing is fine. Obviously not everyone thinks its fine as I've seen complaints about it here and elsewhere.

But I have no intention to fix something that isent broken so I will just keep observing.

It seems weird to have a restrictions for some characters while others cans use them just fine.

In MOBAS like DOTA2 you can absolutly buy like an expensive Axe for a Mage class. But it wont give you the same stats and ability upgrades as it will give to a hero that is suited to carry an Axe. And the SBH is a very special class aswell. Sure we could come up with a explanation why it couldnt carry a repgun. Like for instance the crystal of the repgun disrupting the stealth effect.

But anyway: Thats not the only option as Davidbeast showed with his great post (and Minji in her latest post). Some of the suggestions Yosh already added i think. Like giving Hotwire/Techs heavy pistols.

[Axesor]

Adding heavy pistol to hott/tech sounds great! But hell, Minji, you are making me nervous with your 2nd and 3rd suggestions. I like that I don't need to go back to base too frequently thx to rep tool healing ability and it's ablility to recharge, but even though are engis and techs very useful!

The only problem with rep tool is mine disarming time so please let's stick to this problem..

About Nod's win rate.. give it a few weeks and u will see playing GDI correctly. Everybody is testing infantry now, but GDI's strategies are based on tanks. GDI tank pushes are very scarry tho.

[Novilan]

2. Make the tool only to disarm beacons and repairing buildings (almost no one wants to change from a expensive character to engi/hotwire to repair a building or disarm a beacon)

I think this kind of fragmentation with restrictions makes the gameplay too complex overall and kind of difficult.

Therefore I would prefer a simpler solution like a increase of the mine disarming time, which was already mentioned.

Generally going from a game with specialized characters, which couldn't be customized to customizable characters seems like a hell to balance, especially because of some unique characters like sbhs.

Not to mention that the characters have different speeds now and are equipped differently with mines, c4 or grenades.

I liked the old Renegade and its gameplay, which led me here.

Regarding this it seems a bit unnecessary to me to change so much and going through this kind of trouble.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Guest

[Idiotas]

Sure we could come up with a explanation why it couldnt carry a repgun. Like for instance the crystal of the repgun disrupting the stealth effect.

Why not if the sbh has the repair tool, that he will become static? Like his stealth will turn on and off with static sounds. Would be awesome effect but thats my opinion hahah

[Bananas]

Simple solution I see that could help.

Lower the "max ammo" of the repair tool. I forget what it is now..400 I think? Reduce it by 50% or even 75%. You could raise the recharge rate some to compensate or just give it a reload animation that fully refills it.

Should help with some of the complaints I think. Would make it more of a burst of repair. If the numbers are done right, it would make fully disarming a beacon or mine field with it much harder.

Personally I'm against class restrictions for no reason. In mobas it makes sense because the item doesn't help the character, but there's no stat system in this game.

[boxes]

I'm more for increasing the mine disarm time, as that would also burn through repair gun ammo more than its current state. I like repair tools having just enough to disarm beacons, because otherwise that promotes switching out for hotwire instead of buying a 250 credit repair tool that won't do the job.

[yosh56]

When the hell did this topic blow up?

Anywho, before reading this, I had already changed the repair tool.

A) It has 350 (might even move it back to its original 200) for ammo.

Hotties and Techs have the heavy pistol by default, and just set their speed back to normal, though that was moreso so it didn't break their ability to run into the strip on Field.

And I would also like to bring up the point that whenever there is an influx of newer people playing, Nod's win ratio gets significantly higher... as GDI players either get too paranoid about SBHs and camp the whole game till they finally get broken, or they have no concept of SBHs and get nuked/C4'd to death. And now GDI players don't even Tech their Meds right... and people make attempts to use the repair tool in the field, which is utterly terrible because you have to be glued to the tank, and it repairs slow, AND it obviously can't hold out and be effective for constant repairs.

I personally never liked the idea of repair tools disarming beacons fully before recharging, so I'm more for setting back to being 200-250 for ammo.

On the topic of SBHs eating mines (or anyone for that matter), they can only take one. 2 Kills them. There's just several spots in buildings where mines are (and actually always have been) glitched and did less damage. The threshold of the Barracks doors is one of those places. Glitch is also fixed now.

[RoundShades]

I'll remember that when I mine the Barracks.

I personally like how the repair tool has just enough to diffuse a beacon and take a silo.

Jeff is right, the mines can get more health so it takes more repair tool to diffuse them.

Definitely for hotwire getting back old speed and a heavy pistol.

The repair tools really aren't that strong, SBH were stronger before when they could take turns soaking c4 and then whip out a carbine if someone went looking for mines. Then, there were high level strategies like have 1 sbh set off some mines at refinery and make an ass of himself shooting the mct and junk, while 3 others quietly C4 them and GG them when they distract in panic all to the Ref.

Now, SBH are 3 infantry, nerfed, against many buffed infantry, even autorifles now.

[[TmX]Super-Kh]

On the topic of SBHs eating mines (or anyone for that matter)

the thing is.....sbhs don't even eat mines anymore,they just defuse them with the rep tool,so adding more damage would not change a thing

[Canucck]

Having to run back to base frequently was a pretty important weakness for infantry. Retaking tunnels on a map like Field usually happens when you can force a few of the main inf (mobius, sak, etc) back to base. Now with everyone having a ton of ammo and being able to circlejerk repair each other you can just stay in the field/tunnels all day

[yosh56]

?.....so the minelimit doesn't go down or something!?? Cuz seriously it is still way more effective to just eat mines if GDI has even one decent patrol.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Having to run back to base frequently was a pretty important weakness for infantry. Retaking tunnels on a map like Field usually happens when you can force a few of the main inf (mobius, sak, etc) back to base. Now with everyone having a ton of ammo and being able to circlejerk repair each other you can just stay in the field/tunnels all day

Which was already possible by one tech/hottie placing mines in the tunnel and/or repairing his/her teammates.

I remember the changelist said mines no longer get triggered through walls, right? This would already make it more difficult to get in a building because you basically have to get through more mines' worth.

A repair tool is a great counter to this. But off course, often, items that barely have been tested have to be tweaked.

What i would like to see more instead of lower ammo, is a higher ammo usage on certain items. I don't know how this could be made possible but it would make disarming mines more difficult without compromising the repair tool's usefulness for other units.

[RoundShades]

What i would like to see more instead of lower ammo, is a higher ammo usage on certain items. I don't know how this could be made possible but it would make disarming mines more difficult without compromising the repair tool's usefulness for other units.

This was Jeff's suggestion, making mines more durable against repair. And yes, it was actually lowered this patch (per damage anyway), but it could always be higher. Then again, wouldn't you just eat the mines while someone repairs you instead? That isn't the more cost effective method right now, but it would become it.

Don't mind either way, I just don't think the repair tool is OP. There are a lot of lethal enough infantry to get through infantry tunnels (though i disagree on tunnel design being so chokepointed), and infantry before the patch cost as much as tanks to not have any of the survivability, or infinite ammo, or field sustainability, or building lethality.

I think, if anything, I have seen plenty of games where infantry or vehicles or buildings were wrecked by improper use of repair tool. It lacks infinite ammo, when a structure is shelled for too long it goes down. It lets a vehicle take a few more shots, but a hotwire/tech can negate damage and survive shelling while doing it.