Sidearms and Infiltration Units

[DoctorB0NG]

Hey all,

I've started thinking lately that SBH and Tech/Hotties should NOT be able to purchase sidearms. The whole thing that balanced those units in the original Renegade was that their weapons were not very powerful.

SBH already have the element of surprise and the ability to place nukes darn near wherever they please. Because of this, they also shouldn't have the ability to purchase an uber powerful flechette rifle or carbine.

Hotties/Techies can destroy a building by themselves and can repair things very quickly. With powerful sidearms, I find myself exclusively buying those units.

By removing sidearms from Hotties/Techies, I feel the spectrum of characters that players buy will be diversified.

Thoughts?

[HaTe]

I said this in-game a while ago and again yesterday too. SBH's with sidearms are perhaps the most OP thing in the game right now (especially with a flechette). Never bothered to post about it because really only a few people ever utilize it, but it really is annoying when they do.

I think that if techs/hotwires do get a sidearm, it should replace 1 timed c4. If they get a smoke or EMP grenade, it should replace 1 remote c4. That way, a tech/hotwire with a sidearm cannot single-handedly kill a building, but a tech/hotwire with an EMP or smoke can just barely kill a building if not spotted whatsoever.

[DoctorB0NG]

I said this in-game a while ago and again yesterday too. SBH's with sidearms are perhaps the most OP thing in the game right now (especially with a flechette). Never bothered to post about it because really only a few people ever utilize it, but it really is annoying when they do.

I think that if techs/hotwires do get a sidearm, it should replace one timed c4. If they get a smoke or EMP grenade, it should replace 1 remote c4. That way, a tech/hotwire with a sidearm cannot single-handedly kill a building, but a tech/hotwire with an EMP or smoke can just barely kill a building if not spotted whatsoever.

I think your idea of allowing hotties/techs to purchase a sidearm and it replacing a timed C4 is good as they would still be potent while repairing and less fearsome during infiltration. I would be worried, however, that players would be confused as to why their timed C4s are disappearing from their inventory.

We would need to make sure the tooltip is updated to reflect that the sidearm would replace the C4 ONLY for the tech/hotty.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Guest

[HaTe]

True. Also noting that it gets rid of their pistol as well (since it's the default sidearm).

[Canucck]

imo carbine is still better on sbh because it's quiet. Get behind a group/rush and you can usually just 1by1 them from the back and no one notices until half or more are dead

also ya completely broken and hilarious

[DoctorB0NG]

imo carbine is still better on sbh because it's quiet. Get behind a group/rush and you can usually just 1by1 them from the back and no one notices until half or more are dead

also ya completely broken and hilarious

Agreed. Even the flechette rifle sound doesn't set off the alarm bells like the laser rifle does though.

I feel that once SBH are visible and shooting, they should attract lots of attention and not be very powerful.

[Radeon3]

There has been a topic about how the engies/hotwires/technicians are all around characters a long-long time ago. They can repair buidings, tanks, infantry, highly efficient in combat with remotes, etc and the OP came up with some "balance" ideas. Afair there were some good ones, but the majority disliked it too much and it was scrapped.

Why does this come up now?

Before jumping on conclusions I'd recommend you to find the root of this "problem".

I call an infiltrator a player, who can successfully sneak into a base and cause havoc, by blowing up buildings, stealing unmanned vehicles, killing unsuspecting units, etc. Now, most of the players are not capable of this, even the guys who call themselves generally experts are pretty bad at this in my experience. On the other hand there are a handful of players who are specialized/highly efficient at this, and most of the time they cause the real disturbances which are remarkable and well remembered.

Although SBHs can enter enemy bases, but with a very little effort compared to visible units. Personally I don't call SBHs real infiltrators, because it's a "cheap" way to get in, no wonder why SBHs are noob-magnets.

What does it have to do with sidearms?

Honestly I don't know what the fuss about it. I do understand if you want to prohibit the cheese unit (SBH) to get his hands on powerful upgrades for various reasons, although others might not agree on this with us. But keep in mind that new players to RenegadeX prefer the SBH because it's powerful and easily give them a sense of achievement. Ripping him off from the "good weapons" would make it less appealing. This might be good for us, but not for the game.

What about the Hotwires/Technicians as infiltrators with sidearms?

For example if I don't "ghost" on Walls I have to deal with 3 infantry units on average until I get in a position to enter a building. By then I'm usually injured and low on/out of ammo. Does the extra sidearm helps me on this? Most certainly, but don't blame the weapon because I blew up something, blame those guys I killed who didn't tell the team about my coming or the team which failed to respond to this. And we all know it doesn't matter what you bring when there is dedicated, good base defense.

Anyways, with the mindset of taking away the extra sidearms from SBHs, Eng/Hot/Tech units, we could easily take them away from snipers, because they are clearly long range units and it's quite embarrassing when you ambush a sniper at close range and suddenly you face against an effective close range weapon. This could be applied to many units, but there is no point carry on with this. Also, it has been stated many times, that buffing a unit in any way are always benefit better the good players.

One more thought about this, because I already wrote a wall of text.

I don't want to scarify B4 don't take me wrong. But it played a minor role (compared to real life issues) that I quit playing less then a week after it's release, because it made infiltration -destroying buildings- totally pointless. I believe we don't have to go into the details.

The main reason you find yourself buying powerful sidearms constantly, because you can afford this with the current broken economic system. If you recall it, you could't afford to spend 700 creds for a highly risky infiltration attempt over and over in B3, not to talk about a fully armed hotwire with a tank.

Hope I stayed objective on this matter, so my conclusion is that I found this a bad, half-baked idea.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Guest

[RypeL]

Yeah it probably needs a nerf. One idea i was thinking about is to give hotties/SBH less sidearm magazines.

[Radeon3]

Honestly I don't believe that would change much. You would still able to kill with the same efficiency but less ppl. I still don't understand why is it stressed on the "infiltration" units. Are really the sidearms the problem or it has to do something with that these are one of the most (over)used units and practically you can buy anything. Think about it.

Ps: RypeL I sent you a PM, can you receive them? If not, how could I contact you to ask something privately.

[DoctorB0NG]

It's not that I'm worried about infiltration units. We're plenty capable of countering them. It's just that when hotties/techs can get these powerful weapons, what's your incentive to buy any other character? Hotties/techs become the jack of all trades.

[Radeon3]

It's not that I'm worried about infiltration units.

As far as I see this thread is about sidearms and infiltration units.

We should really find that old thread about why the hottie/techs are overused.

Basically if you buy a vehicle you invest in a tech/hottie to keep it alive.

If your base is under constant fire you need a tech/hottie.

If an enemy unit running around in you building you throw some C4s at him.

You want to change the outcome of the game, you get a tech/hottie to blow up a building.

Got nuked/ioned you need a tech/hottie for the best chance to disarm it.

See the pattern here? It has nothing to do with the extra weapons.

[HaTe]

I get a tech/hotwire for sneaking more than anything else, and if I'm sneaking I'll grab a carbine or flechette every time I can.

I think the vet system will help balance this heavily, but until then I think that they should at least see a price increase if they are to remain as powerful as they are now.

[Radeon3]

I have high hopes for the vet system, it would solve many issues, only problem is it won't happen anytime soon.

Yeah the most effective way currently is to raise significantly the prices on the most used sidearms, which can be done server-side *hint hint*

[HaTe]

That'd be the absolute minimum nerf I'd like to see with them though. My ideal solution is still the one I posted first.

[Radeon3]

By removing 1 timed C4 from the hottie you effectively create an engineer with extra health and a better gun.

That 1 C4 won't affect any of the already mentioned reasons why people getting hotties/techs, because only one role dependent on 2 timed C4s and that's the infiltrator. You would punish a very small ammount of players with this, while the majority would still do the same by purchasing a hottie/tech mainly for the repair gun.

I agree with you all, I would also like to see more diversity in units, but nerfing -the already pointless- infiltrators in B4 has nothing to do with the source of the problem.

[HaTe]

By removing 1 timed C4 you from the hottie you effectively create an engineer with extra health and a better gun.

That 1 C4 won't affect any of the already mentioned reasons why people getting hotties/techs, because only one role dependent on 2 timed C4s and that's the infiltrator. You would punish a very small ammount of players with this, while the majority would still do the same by purchasing a hottie/tech mainly for the repair gun.

I agree with you all, I would also like to see more diversity in units, but nerfing -the already pointless- infiltrators in B4 has nothing to do with the source of the problem.

The infiltrator is the real problem. I don't really run into hotwires/techs that are defending or repairing and get annoyed with the fact that they have purchased a superior sidearm. I do, however, get annoyed when I get killed by an infiltrating hotwire/tech by a sidearm, knowing that they have the ability to blow up a structure at any given time. Getting rid of one of their timed c4s would counter that. Personally, I feel the same way about engineers. If they are going to purchase an advanced sidearm, then they should also sacrifice their timed c4. The (by far) most common characters that purchase sidearms are the hotwire/technician/engineer, because the automatic pistol isn't too effective for infiltration purposes. That's the way it is supposed to be though; they have the ability to do massive damage to (or completely destroy) an entire enemy building, and so their fighting weapon should be weak. Being able to replace that with some extra credits makes them 100% stronger. You're absolutely right when you say that people defending or repairing won't really be affected by this, and I think that's how it should be. It's the huge advantage this gives to infiltrating hotwires and technicians that I see as OP. Not to mention that if 2 of these are traveling together, they can do massive damage to enemies and be able to repair each other right back to full health. If that's going to be the case, then they should only be able to kill one building together. Alternatively, having one with a sidearm and one with just the pistol, they would be able to kill 2 buildings just barely, with enough coordination. The more I post and think about this idea, the more I find that I like it, personally.

[RoundShades]

I am just going to say, I honestly find hotwires having acceptably high tier weaponry and the only absolutely necesary role in the game of healing, is the problem, and the reason why 70% of the game is made of that class.

Want to prove that? First, take a game, and have 1 team unallowed to go engineers at all, and 1 team go nothing but engineers. If you HAVE to be fair about it, give 1 team 100% engineers and the other team 1 hotwire/techs and no other healers. I gurantee you the one with the engineers will win, not even technicians but engineers.

Another test after that, is if you gave 1 team no repairman classes, after adding a "repairgun" secondary to the game, a weak repairgun ofc, and pit them against a team that is only repair classes with secondaries, and then bet your ass if that team without repairmen actually wins that time.

Engineers would still be free healers, and hotwires would still have mines, c4, and the strongest repairgun in the game and I expect to STILL see them abundantly, but at least other classes can do 2 basic functions that hopefully 1 of which the hotwire can't do with the options of a carbine or heavy pistol or tiberium weapon.

[Radeon3]

I don't really run into hotwires/techs that are defending or repairing and get annoyed with the fact that they have purchased a superior sidearm.

I do run into "superior" sidearm wielding techs/hotwires if they spot me in their base. They open fire at me at mid range and it's over for the operation. That's the way of it.

I do, however, get annoyed when I get killed by an infiltrating hotwire/tech by a sidearm, knowing that they have the ability to blow up a structure at any given time.

No offense, but it's your fault if they have the chance to blow up anything after you got killed. When I face against decent players/team after I got detected even if I managed to take down who spotted me, they alert the base, start patrolling or dispatch a few guys to eliminate the threat.

The (by far) most common characters that purchase sidearms are the hotwire/technician/engineer, because the automatic pistol isn't too effective for infiltration purposes.

Sorry but this statement is not correct. It should be like this: The (by far) most common characters that purchase sidearms are the hotwire/technician/engineer, because they are multipurpose units AND upgrading them with extra sidearms makes them jack of all trades. Infiltrators purchase sidearms because they take high risks (with a low success rate) to get through the entire battlefield, get into the enemy base then finally into a building and automatic pistol isn't too effective for this purpose.

That's the way it is supposed to be though; they have the ability to do massive damage to (or completely destroy) an entire enemy building, and so their fighting weapon should be weak.

If I were to follow that mindset, should I complain about the anti armor units, that they never meant to put up a fight against infantry units in any of the CnC games, and now a rocket soldier, pic, rav, gunner can buy powerful sidearms to counter them all? I find it illogical and annoying so let's take away something from them?

Not to mention that if 2 of these are traveling together, they can do massive damage to enemies and be able to repair each other right back to full health. If that's going to be the case, then they should only be able to kill one building together. Alternatively, having one with a sidearm and one with just the pistol, they would be able to kill 2 buildings just barely, with enough coordination.

While it sounds sooo OP written down, that's not the case in reality. At EKT me and AirNomad spent much time to develop techniques specially for dual infiltration until we layed down solid plans for everything. It required very high knowledge of each other's decisions and roles, although so far (to the end of B3) when we were successful only managed to blow up only one building.

As far as I see this what we want to see as the outcome:

You want to nerf infiltrators because you find them OP.

B0ng is not worried about infiltrators he wants diversity in units and you admit that your solution don't help it at all.

As for myself I agree on that diversity would be welcomed, and I respect your opinion but the changes you proposed are plain wrong. It won't change the source of the issue, that some units are overused.

I already pointed out many things and feel like repeating myself, so I'll come back to this topic days later, hopefully more than 3-4 guys gonna share their thoughts on the matter.

[Bananas]

Moved this topic into the balance section for further discussion.

[HaTe]

I do run into "superior" sidearm wielding techs/hotwires if they spot me in their base. They open fire at me at mid range and it's over for the operation. That's the way of it.

Yes, but with this proposed system in place; that would be their primary role. If they purchase a sidearm, they cannot directly individually kill a building, and so they need to be either repairing or defending. You can say the same statement for any character purchased, especially since any of them can purchase sidearms right now.

No offense, but it's your fault if they have the chance to blow up anything after you got killed. When I face against decent players/team after I got detected even if I managed to take down who spotted me, they alert the base, start patrolling or dispatch a few guys to eliminate the threat.

I'm talking about them being able to defend already planted c4s. By that point it's already too late 90% of the time, and an alert then wouldn't do much. Defending these is 10 times easier with a sidearm. Not to mention that the path to getting into the base is made easier for them too with a sidearm, and calling them out at that point doesn't do a whole lot.

because they are multipurpose units AND upgrading them with extra sidearms makes them jack of all trades.

Which directly supports the need to nerf them.

although so far (to the end of B3) when we were successful only managed to blow up only one building.

If I don't solo kill a building per hour of play with a tech/hotty with sidearms, I get surprised. That's how easy it is to do even solo.

he wants diversity in units and you admit that your solution don't help it at all.

Did you not just say that a technician/hotwire with a purchased sidearm is the "jack of all trades." How is that diverse if one unit is clearly stronger than the rest at a huge majority of functions in the game?

Long ago, I had proposed a system that would probably seem completely radical now. Having 2 separate characters that split up the technician/hotwire roles. This would solve many things in the game, and especially the fact that these characters are the most used by a significant amount. If you're interested, I could dig that up for you.

[salarite]

I agree with B0ng.

Both classes are the same in this regard. Both are unique (more unique than snipers), both are tailored to fit a specific role. Currently they can do more than that. SBHs can quickly execute unsuspecting infantry on the field, without having to aim really well with the default gun. Adv.engineers can "deal with 3 infantry units on average" when trying to get to the enemy base. This shouldn't be like this.

SBH should only rely on it's stealth, on the effect of surprise. Adv.engineers should not be an all-purpose commando. They should need to rely on other characters to help them on the combat field.

[RoundShades]

We have the Heavy Pistol, Carbine, Flichette, Tib Rifle, and... oh yeah, the silenced and machine pistols... And all the ones that cost creds, are overpowered. All of them. Don't say the Heavy Pistol isn't. It is.

Guess which one IS getting a confirmed nerf next balance patch?

You Guessed It!

The machinepistol...

Sorry, couldn't help it... But seriously, what is everyone's opinions of it?

Mine: They are too strong. Lol. Really, I don't care which of the following happens to them, but I actually prefer them in the following order:

1) Huge reduction in ammo, Carbine for instance down to 60 shots total, 2 clips, 1 in the gun and 1 to reload. Go refill it if you like, but that caps it from ever being a second-primary like sometimes used, and particularly nerfs it where needed: In hands of Infiltrating Hotwires and SBH and field SBH and Hotwire. Defending ones are less troublesome.

2) Price increase

3) Damage/Stats decrease

As a last note, they should really throw in there a 350 weak repair gun secondary, just for general all around fun, since hotwires and engineers get to use sidearms anyway I mean.

[HaTe]

Firstly, I'd like to see them not be usable by SBH's.

Secondly, I'd like to see Hotwires/Technicians lose a timed c4 when purchasing one of these, along with losing a remote c4 when purchasing an EMP or smoke grenade.

Thirdly, I'd like to see the flechette and the carbine's headshot multiplier nerfed slightly.

[RoundShades]

Firstly, I'd like to see them not be usable by SBH's.

Secondly, I'd like to see Hotwires/Technicians lose a timed c4 when purchasing one of these, along with losing a remote c4 when purchasing an EMP or smoke grenade.

Thirdly, I'd like to see the flechette and the carbine's headshot multiplier nerfed slightly.

All are my feelings, to less extremes. I'd say more like:

1) 2 clips max carry, possibly just 1, so it is much less useful for a sbh/infiltrator.

2) As they are sort of sidearms and you brought it up, I must comment that I wish beacons replaced timed c4 and that equipment replaced timed c4 and thus beacons and equipment can't be together. Smoke grenade with a beacon is sort of miserable.

3) The headshot multiplier with carbines and flichettes are pretty wild. I would go for your 3rd wish verbedum.

[salarite]

I think the sidearms with SBH and hotwires/techs should be discussed in this topic instead: http://renegade-x.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=169&t=75102

[HaTe]

I think the sidearms with SBH and hotwires/techs should be discussed in this topic instead: http://renegade-x.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=169&t=75102

I have merged the two topics as I believe that they are directly correlated with each other, and one cannot be discussed without affecting the other.

If you have any problem with this merge, please PM me and we can discuss it there. Otherwise, please continue the discussion here.

[TheOlsenTwins]

2 Clips are not a bad idea, however the should then retain the silenced pistol.

At the moment, you can only run away if you run out of ammo with the carbine...

[RoundShades]

2 Clips are not a bad idea, however the should then retain the silenced pistol.

At the moment, you can only run away if you run out of ammo with the carbine...

That would be the nerf lol. Need to conserve that.

However, a little coding can make a character default to switch weapon when they run out. The game already supports "discard weapon" and "pickup weapon". So, it is possible, that a little code can "discard secondary for pistol" upon empty.

Might be easier to just code the secondaries to take a different slot than the silenced pistol, giving you 3 weapons. Then again, they should still do that to beacons replacing emp nades and timed c4 in my opinion, having any 2 of those 3 has some tricky tricks you can do with it.

[Radeon3]

Yes, but with this proposed system in place; that would be their primary role.

Technicians were always equally capable of defending building and blowing them up. Who decides that from now on their primary role should be base defending? Where is the logic in that that you would give an extra sidearm to hottie/tech who is repairing in his OWN base with unlimited refills many friendlies around, but wouldn't give it to an unit which is heading into heart of the enemy base? I know what you want to say: but that armed unit can blow up buildings it's OP. In the right hands with stupid people around it is OP, but you can say this for some other units.

You can say the same statement for any character purchased, especially since any of them can purchase sidearms right now.

So you propose to nerf all units who gets a sidearm? I can live with that.

I'm talking about them being able to defend already planted c4s. By that point it's already too late 90% of the time, and an alert then wouldn't do much. Defending these is 10 times easier with a sidearm. Not to mention that the path to getting into the base is made easier for them too with a sidearm, and calling them out at that point doesn't do a whole lot.

I have to repeat myself here. If they let him inside the base, give him time to repair the mines or take damage by forcefully entering, let him place all his explosives on the MCT and they not able kill one unit in their own building or disarm at least 1 timed C4, it's pretty much their fault. At that point I'd say that guy deserves to blow it up, but that he would have a 10 times easier job to defend it is exaggeration. Capable players would deal with him in 10 seconds.

If I don't solo kill a building per hour of play with a tech/hotty with sidearms, I get surprised. That's how easy it is to do even solo.

I'm starting to believe we play with differently skilled players or a different game mode. I know there are timeframes when you can't find too much experienced players and infiltration is like a hot knife through butter. But good luck bypassing SilentKnight, IrishMedic or Goku just to name some. Maybe people don't care anymore about buildings loss since losing them doesn't do too much.

I'd suggest you to come over to the marathon server at an agreed time. I'll be present to see if it really that easy for an "armed to the teeth" tech/hotwire (you) to blow up buildings. Then we can go over to the AOW server to see if it's the same there. We will post the results. This is the best method I can think of to get our points of view closer or find a consensus.

because they are multipurpose units AND upgrading them with extra sidearms makes them jack of all trades.

Which directly supports the need to nerf them.

That's the problem when you take out something from the context. I explained in two sentences why is your statement is not correct. Please read it again together.

Did you not just say that a technician/hotwire with a purchased sidearm is the "jack of all trades." How is that diverse if one unit is clearly stronger than the rest at a huge majority of functions in the game?

I do say that they are jack of all trades when upgraded, because they have more uses, but far away from being stronger than rest of the units. Sure they can repair efficiently and blow up buildings but it is impossible to do at the same time. They are better in general on some aspects when upgraded, but still have their hard capped limitations. Lets say we have an upgraded tech for 600 creds with a good sidearm, I'd say this is a tier 2 unit now. He can't take up the fight against a sniper (T2) at mid/long range, has no chance against officier (T3), almost the same with the shotty (T4), gunner and patch (T2) are serious threat for him, can't fight vehicles above close range while every unit have the ability to put C4s on tanks, can buy grenades by losing his mines while other unit don't really lose anything by that (upgrade possibility for other units) and most off all every unit can get the same sidearm as him to make it par.

Adv.engineers can "deal with 3 infantry units on average" when trying to get to the enemy base. This shouldn't be like this.

Salarite, every unit can deal with 3 unit on their way to the enemy base if they have an underpriced powerful sidearm and the skill. No ego stuff here, but don't count me as your average Adv.engineer.

So far nobody acknowledged that you couldn't afford to buy powerful underpriced sidearms anytime you wanted in B3, because the silo was worth fighting for and you weren't swimming in money.

+1 on BroTranquilty's suggestion.

Long ago, I had proposed a system that would probably seem completely radical now. Having 2 separate characters that split up the technician/hotwire roles. This would solve many things in the game, and especially the fact that these characters are the most used by a significant amount. If you're interested, I could dig that up for you.

Please, by all means if that's the topic I referred to, I'd like to see it again because it contained some good ideas.

[Bananas]

Perhaps a really simple solution we are overlooking is to just increase the price of sidearms. This would make it more of a risk and investment for anyone who wants to buy one.

It would be less appealing to buy side arms all the time if it hurt your bank more.

[salarite]

Adv.engineers can "deal with 3 infantry units on average" when trying to get to the enemy base. This shouldn't be like this.

Salarite, every unit can deal with 3 unit on their way to the enemy base if they have an underpriced powerful sidearm and the skill.

Yeah, but the point is: Adv.engineers shouldn't be able to do that, like every other unit.

[yosh56]

Perhaps a really simple solution we are overlooking is to just increase the price of sidearms. This would make it more of a risk and investment for anyone who wants to buy one.

It would be less appealing to buy side arms all the time if it hurt your bank more.

Is this the part where I bring up that broken eco broke EVERY aspect of this game... again?

I don't think I've ever had a point where I had to 'decide' to buy a sidearm.. I just either did or didn't.

I also still propose reworking sidearms to differentiate between actual sidearms that replace the pistol, and second primaries that replace the C4 slot, or both C4's on the Tech. Sure it's more work, but in all honesty I feel like the system itself was implemented in a broken manner. This would also let us justify moving the Fletchette gun to a sidearm, and nerfing it considerably, while the auto rifle was a second primary weapon that was actually worth buying over the Fletchette.

[HaTe]

So you propose to nerf all units who gets a sidearm? I can live with that.

I propose a general nerf to the sidearms (mainly flechette and carbine headshot damage), SBH's not being able to purchase sidearms whatsoever, and Hotwires/technicians/engineers losing one timed c4 when purchasing a side-arm.

I won't keep refuting the other points because I believe that we have both made our points, and that it's time to hear more people's opinions on the subject.

I think yosh's suggestions are generally on the same page as mine, too(?).

[Handepsilon]

Following Yosh's suggestion we'd have something like...

A Hotwire/Tech with Repair Gun, Heavy Pistol, and Carbine (proxy is still question). Making her roughly 1000k to turn into field-supporter

[ljl87]

If you cant let sbh have sidearms whats the point of getting sbh's? Laser rifle is not enough.

[DoctorB0NG]

If you cant let sbh have sidearms whats the point of getting sbh's? Laser rifle is not enough.

The laser rifle probably could use a decent reduction in the spread.

[RoundShades]

If you cant let sbh have sidearms whats the point of getting sbh's? Laser rifle is not enough.

The laser rifle probably could use a decent reduction in the spread.

I use it effectively situationally. I mean, it does what it should, nearly 1 hit kill or demolish enemies that are perfectly still, while being clunkyish against enemies that are actively engaging.

I got a video where I play the champ, and we lose HoN early game yet I do a lot with 1 sbh and no sidearm. I got a lot of infantry in 1 burst down below 33% and they half way don't react to the next burst neither. When they do, they are already being shot so they just jump-flinch all ragdoll and junk.

In that regard, it wouldn't necesarily change anything to reduce the spread, you are going to land 3 perfect headshots on a target regardless unless they are moving around in which case you have just as much chance landing shots due to spread when near-missing as you do hitting because it's more accurate...

[salarite]

If you cant let sbh have sidearms whats the point of getting sbh's? Laser rifle is not enough.

You are still an invisible soldier, able to sneak in to enemy bases to c4 or nuke, easily steal tanks, put timed c4 on snipers. If you surprise people you can bring most characters down to low health, then finish the job with sileneced pistol.

With that being said, I agree SBH gun should receive reduced spread.

[Axesor]

Sidearms are fine for any unit. If you want to complain about SBHs you should also reming other unfair classes so I dont see reason to write about SBHs and adv.engineers here and there should be created new threat exclusively about this characters. Well fine I write it down there...

Sidearms that they are good as they are now and should be avaiable for any unit. SBHs? This is just ppl who like to play as some assasin and mostly they are doing nothing useful and whole team suffers of lack of ppl and shitty Nod tanks. They are annoying, yes they are. If you dont like SBHs, what about snipers, who can you instant kill even in close range? Why dont they need sidearms??? why dont they have enormous hip fire spread?! skill? oh please! they were made for longe distances and this is their role.

Adv.engineer-I didnt get why do they have 2xtimed c4 and 2x remote c4. Is'nt repairing enought? I think role of engis is primary support unit and they should be able to destroy buildings all alone. Hate sneaky Hotwires. This is so much universal units... well someone there already was talking about it there so I wont write about it again. Take away fucking c4's from em!

Let em choise between 1xtimed c4, 2x remote c4 and grenades and mines will be permanently associated with this character. And free engi- timed c4 only.

OH oooh and why dont any infantry or units for money have 2x timed c4 (exept of SBHs)? This would make bigger sence. +solve bugged undisarmeable c4's issue!

[Handepsilon]

why dont they have enormous hip fire spread?!

...because this is not CS or CoD? I really don't have a better explanation about that...

[Axesor]

Oh really? They also wasnt meant to be real close threat for close range fights. Their role is sniping enemies from medium to long distance. For close distances there are sidearms like carbine.

[salarite]

Axesor chill out a bit, this thread is not like a crusade against SBHs and Hotties/Techs. This is not a complaining thread, this is only about the question of sidearms.

Sidearms are fine for any unit.

what about snipers, who can you instant kill even in close range? Why dont they need sidearms??? they were made for longe distances and this is their role.

Someone else has already brought this up; we can also discuss snipers here as a 3rd class (I personally disagree though).

Adv.engineer-I didnt get why do they have 2xtimed c4

I personally disagree about taking away 2nd timed from Adv.engineers, but I'm open about this topic.

...OH oooh and why dont any infantry or units for money have 2x timed c4 (exept of SBHs)? This would make bigger sence.

All infantry having 2 timed c4 would be pretty OP, meaning almost any kind of character would be able to bring down (to 20%) a building by itself.

+solve bugged undisarmeable c4's issue!

yes that's a huge bug in the game, but! It's a bug and not a balance issue, and has no place in this topic.

[Handepsilon]

Oh really? They also wasnt meant to be real close threat for close range fights. Their role is sniping enemies from medium to long distance. For close distances there are sidearms like carbine.

Hey, chill. Dev would like to have little spread, but even that, the OldRen veterans wouldn't have it. Since I'm not a sniper and they know Renegade better than I do, I just shut up (no really. I'm not being sarcastic. I really do think I have no say about it)

[RoundShades]

Axesor chill out a bit, this thread is not like a crusade against SBHs and Hotties/Techs. This is not a complaining thread, this is only about the question of sidearms.

Sidearms are fine for any unit.

what about snipers, who can you instant kill even in close range? Why dont they need sidearms??? they were made for longe distances and this is their role.

Someone else has already brought this up; we can also discuss snipers here as a 3rd class (I personally disagree though).

Adv.engineer-I didnt get why do they have 2xtimed c4

I personally disagree about taking away 2nd timed from Adv.engineers, but I'm open about this topic.

...OH oooh and why dont any infantry or units for money have 2x timed c4 (exept of SBHs)? This would make bigger sence.

All infantry having 2 timed c4 would be pretty OP, meaning almost any kind of character would be able to bring down (to 20%) a building by itself.

+solve bugged undisarmeable c4's issue!

yes that's a huge bug in the game, but! It's a bug and not a balance issue, and has no place in this topic.

Well, for arguement's sake, making 2x timed c4 a 750 purchaseable item, wouldn't be that bad, considering for 1k you can buy a beacon that instakills a structure from anywhere it is planted around the structure...

Also, I don't mind infiltrators having sidearms, I just propose that there is a better way to balance sidearms that benefits infiltrators less. 60 round carry limit for carbine would help.

If it needed an actual nerf, it could use a slight rate decrease.

[RoundShades]

In practice, why buy a class with a primary that is weak, and a secondary that is stronger than the primaries of the classes available, with full intent for the secondary to be the only one of the 2 you use?

Besides that, it still doesn't encourage less hotwires. They don't have c4. They still have a repair gun. That is still much more useful with a carbine, than a volt rifle is. That just causes some niche balance where carbines are designed just for techs and other classes don't even really use it because they need the equipment slot.

Really, the path of least resistance, would be just design the darn thing not to be a fully sustainable option of weapon. As a secondary, and based on a game with class selection with primary weapon, there is no reason a secondary should be purchaseable with the intent of being a full on weapon. That is the exact role you buy a class for to begin with.

I understand, as a item that costs 100-200, it should maybe be more effective than a free class primary, but if it's going to be carbine strength then it definitely needs less ammo for instance. Possibly less rate of fire so someone can react to it faster and more bullets can miss while someone is pecking for the head.

Imagine if the carbine, belonged to a class instead, what would you value that class at? At least 250 right? If that class also had a repairgun, you could easily value it as a 1k unit. That is also the sort of mentality that states it should be weaker or cost more (250-300)

[HaTe]

Imagine if the carbine, belonged to a class instead, what would you value that class at? At least 250 right? If that class also had a repairgun, you could easily value it as a 1k unit. That is also the sort of mentality that states it should be weaker or cost more (250-300)

Or a trade-off. Such as replacing one of its timed c4s so that it loses one of its primary functions/roles. You see a lone tech going into your PP with a carbine and you know you don't have to worry as much, because they traded-out their timed c4 to be able to purchase a weapon that is able to get them that far in the first place. Whereas you see a tech with a silenced pistol going into your PP, and you know that they earned sneaking all that way into your base, and so they deserve to have the ability to destroy the structure with both of their timed c4s. That's how I see it. I don't think we should increase the cost or make the weapon bad just because of 1-2 characters having an advantage with it right now. I think we should focus on disabling (SBH) certain classes to purchase them, and having other classes (techs and hotwires) be forced to purchase them with a trade-off. Though a slight headshot multiplier nerf is needed for the carbine and flechette acrossed the board, too.

I'll split the two topics up tomorrow, yosh. That way we can continue that discussion inside of the feedback forums.

[Ap2000]

I buy a carbine basically automatically when I also buy an engineer, SBH and some other classes. It's a small cost for a big upgrade for some classes.

What about making sidearms prices different for each infantry tier?

Yeah it probably needs a nerf. One idea i was thinking about is to give hotties/SBH less sidearm magazines.

I don't think that's going to change anything, since you rarely need more than "two magazines' time" to defend your C4.

[RoundShades]

Most servers, using the included config file in vanilla renx, currently have sidearm prices at 100-200-300-300.

Does everyone think that is enough? I think the heavy pistol is right in price but may outshine rocket soldier, and the carbine and flichette are very powerful and the tibrifle is a better McFarland.

The price could still be a wee bit higher on two of those, but also and instead, they can also either be nerfed or reduced clip and carry ammo so they stay strong without being capable of sustained offensive.

EDIT: Also, with the Stank Mod I just made, I am slipping in a shorter EMP fuse. 5 seconds, compared to former 7 second fuse and prior 3 second fuse.

[Mystic~]

I'm in favor of completely removing sidearms from SBH and Snipers.

What makes the SBH balanced is the fact that its laser deliberately goes *Pew Pew Pew!* to give away their position whenever they fire. Being able to silently assassinate hotys/engineers disarming beacons is way to powerful.

I agree that snipers primary role should be as long - mid range infantry and that they should not suddenly have the option of pulling out a powerful carbine/flechette gun (effectively changing their character) the moment you manage to close the distance. They have their chance, after that they still have a pistol.

I also think that Techs/Hotwires should be able to re-select the standard silenced pistol once their primary is out of ammo -- and/or introduce some sort of melee attack whereby you can still hit them with the rifle butt.

I have some suggestions for Havoc/Sakura but will start a new thread for it.