Defense is a Joke

[MajorLunaC]

4 SBH walk into a well-mined Bar. The Bar-tender says "Hey, you guys can't come in here, not all at once!" The first SBH says "But we're in the same clan. It's what clanners do, and have a right to do. We all get on one team, organize, and smoke some noobs. We practice sometimes too, and of course we're all really good at using SBH."

The Bartender responds "But this game and most games are designed with noobs in mind, running around like headless chickens most of the time. I've seen clanners like you in most other games, and you really screw up any balance. Even if a few noobs do organize, they tend to die off easily, screw up, or just aren't very good at all. Besides, that's for offense, and we're talking about defense. 'The best defense is a good offense' only applies if you've got nothing to lose if you don't defend. You can't just effortlessly waltz into any well-mined building and do what you want, at your leisure. I worked my ass off running around mining, and remining badly set-up mines, really well. It's not fair or fun for anyone but you 4 SBH. You didn't even work for it and had no one and nothing to even hinder you. People can't even spot you with Q, and even if they did, there's usually no one anywhere near enough or capable enough to take on 4 trained SBH at once before they destroy a building, not to mention the time to defuse those C4s with engineers. You don't even lose invisibility if you're damaged. You can't expect people, especially noobs, to defend so many bases and attack over vast distances at the same time. Now get the hell out of here!" and the Bar-tender fires all he can at the 4 SBH, although with little use.

The first SBH says "All right, all right. We're going, but we left you a tip, though we only had 4 Cents." The Bar-tender responds "Oh really!? Where?" and turns around just as 4 Timed C4 charges blow up in his face on the Master Control Terminal.

Clanners are a problem, but it's not like you can stop clans from forming or using Teamspeak. It's especially a problem in this game, where 8 mines failed to kill even a single one of the 4 SBH, and really didn't even slow them down. Mines are the only reliable defense, but not even 80 mines seem to be enough to defend an entire base, and few even know how to place the mines well, hidden out of sight. But mostly, people don't mine.

Now, I work my ass off mining and defending my base, and I expect good results. I know clanners, exploiters, pitiful defense systems, and chance-based player defense are mostly to blame, but is it something else too?

- I hide mines behind door edges and around corners to prevent techs from disarming them. From past experience, this has worked great, as long as no one places too many mines or uses C4 (another problem that MUST be fixed). Are these mines not exploding right? Are they detecting enemies through walls (since they get embedded half-way into walls), like they shouldn't be? I'll have to do some offline tests, but I get the feeling they work.

- To overcome clanners (usually groups of elitist top-scoring players that may even train), some additions might be needed. For one, a hierarchy of command. In essence, have the option to elect a Commander to organize everything. He can fight as well, refuse command, and resign. There can also be squads that you can join and communicate with (squad chat), and have elected, commander-selected, or initiated (they start their own squad and optionally invite or freely allow joining) squad leaders. Some visual markers seen only by a squad or commanders could help, such as waypoints or target markers placed on the map and seen in-game as a giant beam of light. Another part to it could be a permanent experience system that helps rank you, especially for a set role. This would help in commander and squad elections/selections. In-game voice systems might help, but mostly, there need to be some more voice commands (just a few).

I really want to play this game, but all these hindrances make it frustrating to even bother trying. The original Renegade had its problems. This game is the chance to fix them. People play this game with that hope in mind, otherwise they'd still play the original. The graphics were never the problem, and although they do attract people, it's only until they realize there are some serious balance and defense issues. Despite everything, I want this game to do well.

[MajorLunaC]

Well here's the mine test results ---->

*5 Hidden Mines do the following damage, including burning:

- 100 Armor + 30-150 HP walking or running + jumping

*5 Floor-only Mines do the following damage, including burning:

- 100 Armor + 150 HP walking or running + jumping, but it usually resulted in instant death, destroying all 5 mines.

- Sometimes, 1 of the 5 mines was still left after killing me as a SBH, so the damage from just 4 mines could take out a SBH.

*1 Floor-only Mine does the following damage, including burning:

- Direct Damage (stepping right on the mine): 35-70 Armor OR 69 HP

- Indirect Damage (going just near enough to detonate mine): 60 Armor OR 31 HP

******SUMMARY******

- Floor Mines work, Hidden Mines don't.

- Mines Detect and Damage through walls.

- Damage from mines decreases significantly with range from dead center on the mine. In fact, the radius on a mine is shorter than the size of a door entrance, so half the hidden mines may not detonate if you enter from one side (unless all the mines are on the top edge, in which case crouching may help).

*****Conclusion*****

- You can hardly kill anything with mines, despite being the only reliable form of base defense.

- You can't even defend against Techs with mines because the mines don't work unless they're ALL 5 on the ground, probably best to be evenly spread out.

- You can't hide mines around door edges or corners because they have reduced damage versus ones on the floor due to decreased damage with range, and the mine damage is so low that you need as much damage as you can get, Also, the range is not enough to even cover a door.

*****POSSIBLE SOLUTION*****

- A single mine needs to do enough damage to kill one SBH instantly, otherwise 4 SBH can get through ANY doorway at ANY time. This should force only united or combined multi-unit attacks and more teamwork.

- The detection and damage RADIUS of the mine should be increased to cover an entire doorway, and should do equal damage in a sphere in ALL directions, with NO reduction in damage at maximum detection/damage range. (If you want realism, C4 at 1 foot away and 10 feet away doesn't make much difference according to Mythbusters. Dead is dead.)

P.S. As the number of players on a server decreases, the chance that an enemy can infiltrate and destroy a building increases exponentially. It also makes it nearly impossible to defend because there are so few people around, someone has to attack, someone has to mine, someone has to manually defend all buildings. People just can't be in 2 places at once, and certainly can't defend such vast areas. The fewer the people on, the more pitiful and painfully frustrating the game played. Maybe that's one of the reasons the servers are low recently.

[Gerbil Tube]

Mines are not meant to be a "fire and forget system". They are not the line of defense, they are the warning alarms. If mines go off then you know someone is in your base and you MUST investigate. If mines are placed correctly it is sometimes very easy to determine where the mines went off and what building you need to protect. If Nod has 4 SBH in GDI base that means they have 4 less people defending Nod base and 4 less people holding the front lines. GDI should always have 3-4 defenders in big games, usually with at least 1 vehicle patrolling the base.

Increasing mine damage would unbalance the game right now. It would make any attempt of infiltration almost useless unless you were an engineer. If the damage was increased, mine limit would have to be decreased. Mine range is already close to max, any further and engineers can't defuse them.

In smaller matches the fact that Nod has multiple SBHs should be very apparent to GDI. No opposition should raise at least some alarms. Also in small matches rushing with a group of SBHs is a risky move, if GDI has some offence they could easily kill one of Nods buildings as well.

I do not believe that the mines are the problem right now. The SBH is still a little hard to see though, and even harder to warn teammates about. Fixing that problem should help a lot. Also you are right when it comes to players in Ren X, most do not know how to mine properly or even defend properly. This greatly increases the odds for an SBH attack. If team chat was implemented it would help with the "noob" problem.

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

The SBH is basically Nod's primary tactic for winning games. Disregarding player skill, in a straight up slugfest, GDI's tanks will beat Nod's. I do agree that SBH could use some rebalancing, though I think it should be slight.

My contributed idea was to be able to Q an SBH after you shot him. This would mean people couldn't just macro Q spam and sweep over the base on top of places like, say, the middle of Walls: Flying. "SBH spotted near War Factory!" would be very convenient, particularly given that this game doesn't have a voice chat. (We need one, desperately.)

Another idea would be to up the health, and perhaps prevalence, of the basic guard towers. They'd still fall pretty easily, but if the team protected them, they would protect the team by knocking out any attempted infiltrations.

But at the same time, the SBH should not be nerfed into uselessness. It's basically what makes Nod viable as a team. Even if they don't directly win, diverting GDI resources to beacons rather than pushing the front lines contributes a LOT to Nod's war effort. Intelligent balancing, with consideration of all factors, is needed. Hell, perhaps there should be a Mobile Sensor Array item you can set up, which for a period of five minutes, will detect stealthed enemies in a small radius. Of course, it would be destroyable.

[MajorLunaC]

They are not the line of defense, they are the warning alarms.

If those are warning alarms, I'm a roast chicken. No significant sound, no direction, no alert to anyone else.

Increasing mine damage would unbalance the game right now. It would make any attempt of infiltration almost useless unless you were an engineer. If the damage was increased, mine limit would have to be decreased. Mine range is already close to max, any further and engineers can't defuse them.

Untrue. Those APC/Chinook rushes have at least 5-6 people. They could easily get through even if 1 mine killed 1 free character. It would still take more than one mine to kill purchased characters. You only need 1 person to really destroy a building (bullets do damage to MCT too). Mine limit should be 45-80 just as it is now, it would still work. Rushes and more team-based coordination would be required, especially using multiple techs to infiltrate. Less BS 3-minute game time building destruction.

Also in small matches rushing with a group of SBHs is a risky move, if GDI has some offence they could easily kill one of Nods buildings as well.

Ummm, in small matches rushing with anything is a risky move. Even stepping out of your own base is a risky move. Why? Oh that's right, because there's no defense except pitiful, useless mines! Small games just tend to be terminal no matter what, because you can't be everywhere at once, and detecting anything happening in your own base is like listening for a mouse in a working factory.

If team chat was implemented it would help with the "noob" problem.

I think you mean voice chat, because there's already team chat. The problem is, I've been to voice chat games. I have to mute most of them.

But at the same time, the SBH should not be nerfed into uselessness. It's basically what makes Nod viable as a team. Even if they don't directly win, diverting GDI resources to beacons rather than pushing the front lines contributes a LOT to Nod's war effort. Intelligent balancing, with consideration of all factors, is needed. Hell, perhaps there should be a Mobile Sensor Array item you can set up, which for a period of five minutes, will detect stealthed enemies in a small radius. Of course, it would be destroyable.

Well, I honestly don't think the entire balance should be based on 1 single thing ... no 1 lynchpin. If it is so, then destroying the HON should cause NOD to lose easily ... which may very well be the case right now. I say give them other advantages, like having the artillery do more damage, and maybe everything of theirs do more damage.

I can't wait for some sensors, although no time limit is necessary. Destroyable and visible is enough. Although, it wouldn't help so much without someone or something to see it.

[Goku]

They are not the line of defense, they are the warning alarms.

If those are warning alarms, I'm a roast chicken. No significant sound, no direction, no alert to anyone else.

False, myself and other old skool players check the mine count like hawks, (shout out to old skoolers having nubs asking why you keep saying !c4 in teamchat in the old days lol). One mine vanishes i tend not to worry but 2-3 then im off looking for where the door is empty then spam the shit out of defend this building or field if the mines start to go down you know someone is trying to beacon the ref/bar/air and you go and murder them before they can plant.

Also on the SBH nurf in my view they just need sprint taken away & to shimmer under damage and another 2-3 seconds afterwards.

[Truxa]

False, myself and other old skool players check the mine count like hawks, (shout out to old skoolers having nubs asking why you keep saying !c4 in teamchat in the old days lol).

I hated to do that, so I just didnt bother. But covertly entering the enemy base wasnt that easy compared to RenX though; no sprint, less hiding spots, more obvious routs. Driving around in a humvee was my persistent tactic in the old ren, same as now, but now it's darn harder and less rewarding against SBHs.

[Truxa]

Last 3 maps I played:

Wall-Flying

Islands

Whiteout

On all 3 maps I was 'lucky' enough to be placed on the Nod team. All 3 maps were won by Nod.

I started each map as an engineer defending against those early rushes, succeeded on Walls and Islands, but on Whiteout I started killing the GDI harvester. Everything worked out.

On all 3 maps though, we had a 3-man SBH+nuke tagteam. Everytime we nuked, atleast 1 building went down as we targetted 3 different buildings. Sometimes with artillery/flame pressure on the 4th.

This tactic is VERY rewarding, as GDI scrambles to the nukes without succes, well, partial succes as I am the one placing my nuke very easy to catch, giving time for the other nukes to decimate the base.

Anyway, defense is indeed a joke against SBH nukes used like this, in games 10v10. GDI having 3-4 defenders to defend against an overpowering SBH nuke tagteam while the other 6-7 are trying to assault the Nod base. Well, they first have to get passed the 5-6 defenders in their flamers/lights/artilleries/apaches though. As soon as I die, I join the defenders as techy, so GDI has no chance at all.

Just writing this to show how small-games can be very overpowering by Nod

[vlatkozelka]

LOL nub complaining about SBH ... u probably didnt play old renegade

GDI have well armored and powerfull tanks

NOD have stealth units

USE YER HEAD , defend your buildings . SBHs always come the same way , just check those places .

oh and , this is just like any other complaint about any good tactic in any game : camping , sniping ...

itls like rule #2 of teh gaming : EVERY GOOD TACTIC IS N00B ...

ofc rule #1 is : EVERYONE IS GAY

People who learned how to sneak in with an SBH arent to be called nubs , its a skill like any other , not everyone is sniper u know .

[RypeL]

Yeah but SBH seems to be OP atm. Lots of people agree on that aswell as devs. Thats why it will receive a nerf in beta 3 (slightly easier to see) and most likely more nerfs in beta 4 that didnt make it in beta 3 (most importanly removement of cloak when sprinting i guess).

[Truxa]

Yeah but SBH seems to be OP atm. Lots of people agree on that aswell as devs. Thats why it will receive a nerf in beta 3 (slightly easier to see) and most likely more nerfs in beta 4 that didnt make it in beta 3 (most importanly removement of cloak when sprinting i guess).

Please no spoilers on how issues are adressed, it's awekward when they are tested and deemed too much a nerf and rewound. Leaves the community with the idea what is expected vs reality. Being fague is sometimes better.

However, cloak removing when sprinting, thats too much a nerf imo, because your persuers can still sprint while reloading, thus when the SBH is seens once, it's dead as recloaking also takes 1-2 seconds when you do sprint.

Flickering when sprinting is all thats needed, so recloaking goes faster after sprinting.

[vlatkozelka]

Yeah but SBH seems to be OP atm. Lots of people agree on that aswell as devs. Thats why it will receive a nerf in beta 3 (slightly easier to see) and most likely more nerfs in beta 4 that didnt make it in beta 3 (most importanly removement of cloak when sprinting i guess).

idk if its OP atm ( maybe cuz sprint ) , but i think they are whining about the whole idea of the SBH ...

tbh the sbh in old ren was even harder to see , instead of that blue cloack we had transparent , was a bitch on snowy maps .

but srsly asking to remove SBH is just wrong , what would NOD do against mammys and meds then ? NOD's power lies in those stealth tactics instead of brute strength .GDI just need to learn how to deal with it.

[RypeL]

...However, cloak removing when sprinting, thats too much a nerf imo, because your persuers can still sprint while reloading, thus when the SBH is seens once, it's dead ....

Yeah thats a good point. Yeah so probably SBH should just be a bit more flickery or something when sprinting.

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

...However, cloak removing when sprinting, thats too much a nerf imo, because your persuers can still sprint while reloading, thus when the SBH is seens once, it's dead ....

Yeah thats a good point. Yeah so probably SBH should just be a bit more flickery or something when sprinting.

My suggestion is being able to Q them after shooting them once, regardless of whether or not their cloak is intact. This would prevent people from just Q-spamming common infiltration areas while, at the same time, making it easy to alert the team of an infiltration without being on Teamspeak or something.

[RypeL]

Yeah good suggestion.

[R315r4z0r]

One thing about SBHs vs mines is that it's easy to coordinate a damage-eating rotation for getting through a mined door.

For example, you get a group of 4 SBHs, they each take turns taking damage from one mine. Blow up 4-6 mines and they have access to the building.

Granted this can be done with any character, with SBHs it's kinda cheap since they can't be seen. I think there should be some sort of tweak with mines as well.

On a side note, it would be cool to have a new type of weapon in the weapon list be a "Proximity Alarm." Basically, working the same way as a proximity mine but it sends off an alarm when an enemy gets within range of it... possibly even alerting to it's exact location. So, if you place the alarm in the barracks and an enemy walks near it, you'd get the message "Enemy has been detected in GDI's infantry barracks!" or something.

[Skeeze]

I think sbhs sprint should just be reduced in duration, speed or totally removed because they can slip past very easily now. And sbhs not flickering on damage.

I think thats the only reason sbhs are so strong atm and I dont think we need any of that fancy stuff ^^

[Xpert]

AGT is a fucking joke. Nod is OP on Field in Renegade. Nod is even more OP on Renegade-X.

AGT doesn't even shoot behind the bar and refinery when someone tries to nuke.

[vlatkozelka]

AGT is a fucking joke. Nod is OP on Field in Renegade. Nod is even more OP on Renegade-X.

AGT doesn't even shoot behind the bar and refinery when someone tries to nuke.

That's what i expected to read when i first came into this topic "agt is a joke" not the SBH lol

I agree , agt was always weak but thats cuz of light armored vehs on nod , but on RenX its way too weak . I mean arty can reach it in Field with still about half hp <-- bad

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

AGT is a fucking joke. Nod is OP on Field in Renegade. Nod is even more OP on Renegade-X.

AGT doesn't even shoot behind the bar and refinery when someone tries to nuke.

That's what i expected to read when i first came into this topic "agt is a joke" not the SBH lol

I agree , agt was always weak but thats cuz of light armored vehs on nod , but on RenX its way too weak . I mean arty can reach it in Field with still about half hp <-- bad

Not that Nod can ever take the field on Field.