Some non-engineer solution to mines

[sarabi]

Just getting kind of irritating how most infantry classes are utterly helpless against a single highly visable mine in a coridor, perhaps if we could do what we do in every other game and toss an explosive to 'difuse' the situation? It's ungodly disheartening to see these effectively free little gits halting any sort of infantry assault that doesn't include plenty of engineers/haywires.

[Unit]

This isnt every other game (thank god), this is renegade.

[sarabi]

Ahhh yes, the ultra conservative tiberium knights come to lambast proposed change rather than consider there ever could be a problem, bravo, your argument is most evidently validated by it's lack of a need to explain itself, or for that matter say anything of worth.

[SFJake]

Why the proposed change in the first place?

Mines are there to stop lone soldiers from entering without requiring a person constantly checking around that specific corner. They are a vital element of base defense that can be very useful. If it doesn't stop everyone, it'll weaken or kill someone, make APC rush less effective, etc. You simply use teamwork to get around it, which is the core of the game.

Mines are very useful in defense and this game very much needs a good defense.

Besides, if you add ways for anyone to just destroy mines harmlessly, they would be quite useless. Setting them up and watching over them takes a dedicated defender, which can also use the mines to get a heads up when the enemy is invading. There's no reason their work should become all the more easily dispatched harmlessly by a lone soldier. The mines would become next to useless.

[sarabi]

The proposed change is becase that combined with someone activly defending an area, the odds are MASSIVLY stacked in favor of the defenders, 2 attackers vs 2 defenders with mines and the attackers simply are not going to be able to advance between

a. needing a specialist class with poor combat viability.

b. The inordinate amount of time it still takes to defuse even when not being constantly fired upon.

Simply put that it can easily stop any equal or even greater offensive force for effectively no cost outside of the initial purchase of haywire thanks to free refills at terminals.

[Cherno]

Are you saying that you find it strange that with both sides having the same manpower, the defender is at an advantage? Seriously, this is one of the most basic facts of warfare since earliest times in history.

[yosh56]

As an avid Renegade player/fan, Unit's response (and the ones that seem to pop up all over here) are honestly annoying and making the community look kind of childish. Seriously, just saying 'no' doesn't get anybody anywhere. You don't have to go in-depth... but make a half-way valid point.

Still, he's right that this is not every other shooter. However, the reason mines should stay the way they are simply ties into two things.

A) (The simple answer) A few infantry can just spread the damage of mines and get by them if they're aware of the game mechanics.

B) (The long winded answer)

Making a team 'need' Hotwires/Engis to clear mines falls into the team-play aspect. If any class could diffuse mines, there'd be almost no reason for hotties/techs to do anything but mine and defend the base. Assaults with infantry could easily just be done by 3 of any class walking in a building, circumventing mines and using their timed. Not to mention, assuming this would be an easy 1-shot-splash killing an area of mines, that would completely negate at least the slowing/deterrent factor of mines.

To give an example, in Planetside 2 Anti-tank mines can be disarmed, or just blown up. It takes roughly 2-3 seconds (IIRC) to disarm a mine with an engineer's repair tool. Now let's remember that the engi has to walk right up within like 3-5 meters of this mine, then wait 2-3 seconds to disarm a single mine. Since Engineers with max certs in the right places can place 6 mines, that would mean this engineer disarming them would be disarming for 12-18 seconds. Now, with me being an avid tank-driver in Planetside, I can personally say I never wait for that BS. I just have my gunner shoot 1 mine and have the explosion kill the rest (if it doesn't we just shoot all of the mines). As much as I find it convenient to be able to do so, I do believe it makes the Engineer ability to disarm more of a novelty than anything else. Now that's for vehicles, but proximity mines for infantry are different.

Sticking to PS2, the proxy mines are generally one hit kill if you run into range, and also the mines are kind of hard to see. This makes it fairly easy to just hold a choke point down with one or 2. However, assuming people around you actually notice these mines, the easiest way to get rid of them is just to shoot them. Anyone can shoot them, meaning that you could just exterminate the issue as any old class. That's nice and all, but most people will generally hit mines... because PS2 has medics that can (when completely ranked) more-or-less insta-revive you. AAAAND this is where this 'argument' has been headed the entire time(I fluff, so sue me).

In a game like PS2, BF, or especially COD, there's nothing at stake for the individual; in short, there's no penalty for dying really. That being said, if you die to mines in those games, you just rage a bit and re-spawn. Or maybe even just get revived. Mines are not a CORE mechanic in any of those games, they're just another weapon.

In Renegade however, mines are a core component of base-defense, and you should not simply be able to circumvent that fact without doing anything out of the ordinary. The reason Hotwires and Engis have a repair gun that disarms mines is because they are MEANT to be the ones that get into bases and single-handedly become game-changers. To not just have a wall of text, here's a bit of perspective.

Havoc/Sakura : Meant to kill people VERY easily with a secondary of being pretty good at fighting light armor/Aircraft. They're good at defending a beacon... but even if they get in a building they're not meant to do much of anything to it.

Gunners: Built to be a medium range tank deterrent with a secondary to have enough DPS to substantially damage buildings, thanks to high dps. As for his effectiveness against infantry... well, he kind of sucks for anti-heavy-tank, and splash-damage in general is easy-mode in Renegade.

SBH's: Built to infiltrate/exploit... but not meant to be a building-killer without a nuke, or some major coordination. Secondly, SBH's are good for recon... but nobody seems to use them for that.

Hotwires/Techs: Primarily repair, and defend with the 'secondary' of being able to solo a structure. Note... SOLO. They can get past mines because it falls into the reason for their existence. Engineers are also meant to destroy buildings (One person engi whilst their escort provides the 2nd timed-C4 needed to actually destroy the structure).

The primary reason that mines are placed (if it is not obvious) is to keep enemy infantry out of buildings. Yes, putting mines in the tunnel indirectly keeps people out of buildings. Free soldiers/Havocs/Sakuras/Every-other-infantry-class-that-isn't-an Engi, these are not primarily or secondarily supposed to be used to infiltrate and destroy structures; they're made to be ASSISTING the 2 classes that are capable of doing that job. Now admittedly, with Hotties and Techs being able to carry carbines, their ability to do everything but snipe is... disturbing, but we'll see how that goes when the sidearm bug is fixed.

Now that was a bit long winded, but the jist of it is: Hotwires/Engis have mine-clearing right in their job description. Every other class is meant to do things that help hotties/techs get that inevitable BOOM.

If that doesn't help... well. 'cuz it's Renegade =\

[TheGroundsKeeper]

Get a engineer, disarm, profit+credits+points.

Or

Get a free unit, step in them profit.

Renagade bases have been leveled to the ground since 2002, no matter if there were mines or not, so i cant see why this should suddently be a huge issue.

Edit: One of the issues is also that usually there are more attackers than defenders wich means if the game werent made for defenders having an advantage there would simply be no defenders at all.

And it is not supposed to be easy to make a successfull attack, that is what making success in Renegade/Renegade X such a rush.

[Lessy]

a. needing a specialist class with poor combat viability.

Poor combat viabilty also depends on the skill the user has...

Especially the newly added "sprint" ability helps out often in my opionion.

The pistol will do plenty of damage in good hands and up close the remote c4 will do a great deal of damage too!

To comment on your suggested "solution":

if this where to be applied to the game, alot of people would probably simple stop playing because it would be way to easy to rush in the enemies base and blow up some buildings which would result in really short games.

[sarabi]

To Yosh56

A most eloquent and deftly put argument, I applaud and concede the point that mines in of themselves requiring hotwires may not be a terrible issue, but rather that it's pub-play that makes it seem as though something is amiss, on account that getting people to organize, group up and cooperate to surmount is often akin to herding cats.

[yosh56]

To Yosh56

A most eloquent and deftly put argument, I applaud and concede the point that mines in of themselves requiring hotwires may not be a terrible issue, but rather that it's pub-play that makes it seem as though something is amiss, on account that getting people to organize, group up and cooperate to surmount is often akin to herding cats.

Herding cats indeed, my friend, herding cats indeed. But sometimes... when those cats finally become wolves in a pack, it becomes a glorious day.

[super_gsx]

No. The solution to this is to buy a free character and run suicide through the mines.