Please X Community, for the love of all that is Kane

[Rex]

Do not turn this into WoW or the various other MMO's ( not that this an MMO of course, but you get my point) where the entire community complains of "nerf this" or "nerf that". Play the game they give us and for gods sake dont make these fine gentlemen and ladies work any harder than they already have. Play what they give us and adapt. That is all.

As an aside, I am an old Renegade player and fan, and it was hands down my favorite game ever created, so the fact that this dream of the Dev's was made a reality is a truly remarkable thing, so thanks for seeing this all the way through Dev's, you guys are awesome!

EDIT: Yes, I felt the need to change the title.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Guest

[Sebqt]

I don't think this'll be the case but I do appreciate where you're coming from. That being said it is still beta so people should be giving constructive feedback.

Edit: I should say that I played WoW Classic through to Wotlk where I quit when it became a game of log-in, faceroll, collect loot.

[HaTe]

Well said, but please also note that the release is a public beta release, and the devs appreciate feedback and balance opinions. I do agree that the community should give it time and not jump to any conclusions on balance, without playing the game extensively first.

[NoSoldier]

^ Public Beta, but still Beta. Comparable with Early Access. Keep In mind when playing that this game started development after or shortly before the Release of Black Dawn!

[Valor]

No way in hell people are not going to complain, especially with all the new stuff that's being added.

I've been watching the videos and I've already noticed some things that need nerfing.

[HaTe]

No way in hell people are not going to complain, especially with all the new stuff that's being added.

I've been watching the videos and I've already noticed some things that need nerfing.

The beta is currently beta 13, to give you perspective on how often changes are being discussed and made. It is a process. The public beta will probably be the 15th or 16th build. It is difficult to argue balance when key features and damage calculations are changing frequently. If anything should come out of this topic, it is to provide constructive criticism that would result in a better balanced gameplay, rather than hateful "game is unbalanced" posts. Help, don't hate

[NoSoldier]

No way in hell people are not going to complain, especially with all the new stuff that's being added.

I've been watching the videos and I've already noticed some things that need nerfing.

Don't worry. As HaTe stated before, the videos you're mostly watching now aren't from the release build. "We" are adressing balance problems

[Daedhart]

Do not turn this into WoW or the various other MMO's ( not that this an MMO of course, but you get my point) where the entire community complains of "nerf this" or "nerf that". Play the game they give us and for gods sake dont make these fine gentlemen and ladies work any harder than they already have. Play what they give us and adapt. That is all.

As an aside, I am an old Renegade player and fan, and it was hands down my favorite game ever created, so the fact that this dream of the Dev's was made a reality is a truly remarkable thing, so thanks for seeing this all the way through Dev's, you guys are awesome!

EDIT: Yes, I felt the need to change the title.

Calm down, bro. Complaining is exactly what youre doing. Just wait and see what happens. The game will evolve as needed.

[RoundShades]

No way in hell people are not going to complain, especially with all the new stuff that's being added.

I've been watching the videos and I've already noticed some things that need nerfing.

I see things I suspect could use nerfing.

All things in moderation.

Generally, the OP is right, players in general for every game should at least play a bit before declaring outright necesities out of nerfs.

Almost nothing "needs" nerfed. Most people will "abuse" what they "think" is overpowered and then it will still turn up as a weakness when they go to rely on it.

PA, t2 air is overpowered, so is flak, so naturally everyone abuses air because air beats air and air also beats anything else in one-hit, and I abuse flak because it just about negates air and anyone who uses it blows their cost for making it when flak tears it down. Most people know to abuse flak, but EVERYONE thinks air is overpowered so they still run straight for it like lemmings. I haven't seen a person win using air, but air is overpowered so I haven't seen a game where someone didn't rush air with every bit they had.

So yes, players be stupid, but lets not just to conclusions and see for ourselves Feb. 26th.

[Rex]

I understand it's a beta and there are changes that and fixes that need to be made, but my point was in the future I was hoping we don't become like other communities with constant complaints and the like. I guess I didn't go into enough detail as to what I was referring to. Anyway, good points made by all. 16 days can't wait!

[Valor]

There is a drastic difference. People who play a MMO, MOBA, or RTS game usually pick one race or character to use. They will complain and beg for their own race/character to get buffed and others to get nerfed so they will have an advantage.

You can't pick a side in Renegade X, it's always either GDI or Nod and it's random every time. You can't feel any attachment to one particular side. Thus, any balance complaints will be made with good reason.

[Daedhart]

I am a little curious what provoked this thread. Because I dont recall seeing anybody complaining about nerfing.

Just heated debates about recon bikes and free aim...

[Valor]

It could happen, especially from the people who've never played Renegade before because they might not understand the whole disparity between GDI and Nod. This forum could blow up when the game is released, though I am disappointed at how inactive this forum is now.

[Rex]

I am a little curious what provoked this thread. Because I dont recall seeing anybody complaining about nerfing.

Just heated debates about recon bikes and free aim...

My desire to see this community not suffer like those other communities is what sparked it. A pre-emptive strike, as it were.

[Daedhart]

Im not worried; innocent until proven guilty. Besides, the people you speak of arent even here yet. Nothing here but vets, and none of them have complained yet aside from some heated debates, which is exactly what the game needed.

[R315r4z0r]

Complaints are healthy for the game's growth. Without them, the devs won't know what is wrong and won't change what needs fixing and that will only drive players away.

The fact that they are releasing it as a beta means they are intending to constantly update it based off of player's feedback. They are asking for people to give them feedback. So if no one complains about things they don't like, it would be an insult to all of the time the developers spent on the game for the past 7 years.

[Rex]

Ok, let me be clear because apparently I'm either not being clear or some folks are having a tough time grasping what I'm trying to say. Yes, complaints are healthy for a game, especially one in beta. If you have ever played a game that has been around for a while, you will notice everyone complaining about everything all the time and that is what I'm hoping we can avoid at least to a large extent. Feedback is great, ongoing and unending complaints are not. Is there any confusion as to what my OP was meant to do?

[ehh]

there's always going to be dicks, no matter what

[ErroR]

Plus I'm pretty sure the devs are all very familiar with Renegade and know what they're doing.

They wouldn't let it slide too far off into generic shooter territory. Beside the ironsights.

[Daedhart]

there's always going to be dicks, no matter what

No doubt.

Ok, let me be clear because apparently I'm either not being clear or some folks are having a tough time grasping what I'm trying to say. Yes, complaints are healthy for a game, especially one in beta. If you have ever played a game that has been around for a while, you will notice everyone complaining about everything all the time and that is what I'm hoping we can avoid at least to a large extent. Feedback is great, ongoing and unending complaints are not. Is there any confusion as to what my OP was meant to do?

I would get to know the community before assuming we're just a bunch of trolls. The OP seems to be a solution in search of a problem. We can be nice...sometimes.

[TopDawg]

I'm pretty sure the OP was just saying that he did not want to see it happen, not that it was already happening. Also, when the game is released to the public on the 26th, the community will be much, much more than what it currently is now.

But also to play devil's advocate a little bit here, if people are constantly complaining about multiple things being OP, there's probably a chance that it actually has pretty good balance, since there's no clear winner to the 'what's best' question. I of course haven't had the chance to play yet, but I'm sure I'll be able to put it through its paces once I get some hands-on time with it with a group to play with.

[Ban4life]

Another problem with "balanced" is the difficulty of playing the sides. It could be that Nod is easier than GDI to learn, but much more difficult to reach the higher levels than GDI for example. How do you draw those lines? Often people only look at what experts can do, but the middle ground is much more prominent in the game.

I think the original poster is mostly afraid that you get updates every now and then, nerfing one thing and boosting another too much. Some things aren't nerfed but were so good before that after it was made balanced it feels weak, making it less desirable. People complaining all the time...

I think we will not have to worry about that. There already have been a lot of big changes and I think they will leave it at that. My guess is that they will tweak things only ever so slightly if something seems over or underpowered.

The price difference also makes it difficult to estimate some units, as it is harder to gauge if they are over or underpowered. You see that with increasing price the power of the units rises more or less exponentially on their field, until about 500 credits for units and 800 for tanks (as a quick estimate). A Chem trooper is clearly much less effective in most conditions than a laser chain gun trooper. A laser chain gun trooper is less effective in most conditions than a Raveshaw, but clearly not half a Raveshaw's power.

I think it really won't be a problem until the modders start adding weird stuff.

[TopDawg]

Regardless of what is prominent (or rather, the largest number of players at whatever skill level), I think all balance discussions have to center around the highest levels of play.

Speaking somewhat crudely and in generic terms, a game needs the group of hardcore players that play at the highest level offered by said game. This number of players will likely be proportionately smaller than the the other groups, with that point I agree. But I would be really interested in hearing about a long-term, successful game that was not balanced at the highest levels of play.

And that's not to say that a game can't be balanced at all levels of play, either. One 'tier' doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to another, meaning that it's desirable for all levels to be balanced, but that ultimately game balance has to be achieved and prioritized at the highest level(s) of play.

It's also true that people will tend to complain regardless, but one of the advantages of this project, especially being original C&C Renegade fans to begin with, is that there's no monetary ulterior motive in pandering to one group over another.

[R315r4z0r]

Ok, let me be clear because apparently I'm either not being clear or some folks are having a tough time grasping what I'm trying to say. Yes, complaints are healthy for a game, especially one in beta. If you have ever played a game that has been around for a while, you will notice everyone complaining about everything all the time and that is what I'm hoping we can avoid at least to a large extent. Feedback is great, ongoing and unending complaints are not. Is there any confusion as to what my OP was meant to do?

I understand what you're saying, but I have to respectfully disagree. Complaints, constructive or not, all serve a purpose. If someone rage quits and comes storming onto the forum ranting about it, it's for a reason and the devs would probably interested to know what that player's source of frustration is. Whether or not what they say has any value to it would remain to be seen but that doesn't mean they shouldn't complain.

I play MMOs and other games where people complain about balance. I know what you're trying to say and I know how annoying it is to read people's nonsense. But it's necessary nonsense. Otherwise the game will stagnate and die.

That being said, however, we, as a community, have to not be dicks about their complaints and shrug them off. That will only make players angry and make them potentially quit playing. So, it's not the complaints that we need to worry about, it's how we react to them that is key.

[Fr3EdOm]

I understand what you're saying, but I have to respectfully disagree. Complaints, constructive or not, all serve a purpose. If someone rage quits and comes storming onto the forum ranting about it, it's for a reason and the devs would probably interested to know what that player's source of frustration is. Whether or not what they say has any value to it would remain to be seen but that doesn't mean they shouldn't complain.

I play MMOs and other games where people complain about balance. I know what you're trying to say and I know how annoying it is to read people's nonsense. But it's necessary nonsense. Otherwise the game will stagnate and die.

That being said, however, we, as a community, have to not be dicks about their complaints and shrug them off. That will only make players angry and make them potentially quit playing. So, it's not the complaints that we need to worry about, it's how we react to them that is key.

Everyone kindly direct your attention to this post.

[HaTe]

Just have fun