The importance of the V-button

[gsus]

**Please correct me if I'm wrong**

For as I know, there won't be a V-button (free-aim) in Renegade-X with the release. However I haven't seen any post regarding to this subject in which stated that the dev-team is going to add the V-button soon or give it any importance. We have all played C&C Renegade and I would be a pain in the ass to play the game without a v-button. I am not a game developer and I appreciate all the efforts made for this game. I do hope that the V-button will be implemented soon because otherwise many gamers might actually stop playing the game after some days / hours after the release, which would be a shame!

Hopefully someone of the dev-team can reassure me that it is on the shortlist for development, otherwise I predict a short future .

[Valor]

Looks like I was wrong. Here's what the FAQ says about free aim.

Q: Will you incorporate Free Aim?

A: Yes. By default Unreal's cameras are locked to vehicle turrets, but if our coders can come up with a free aim system for locking the camera to the chassis (and unlocking free aim for infantry) then we'll have it.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Guest

[HaTe]

There is still no word on the level of priority given for free-aim. It was discussed a lot, but the devs themselves seem to be split on the importance level of it. I'm with you and want free-aim more than anything else, but we have not received any official word on when this will be added to the game, unfortunately. I'd like to say by release, but in all honesty I just don't know if the devs see it as a priority right now.

[ehh]

hopefully not

[HaTe]

hopefully not

They could always make it so that the target box doesn't show up when the enemy is behind a wall or structure, when using free-aim. Would make hugging relatively the same as it is now, while still giving free-aim its other uses.

[alpha1995]

hopefully not

They could always make it so that the target box doesn't show up when the enemy is behind a wall or structure, when using free-aim. Would make hugging relatively the same as it is now, while still giving free-aim its other uses.

I think this would be a fantastic solution to the v-button issue. V button is incredibly useful with open sniping or with rave/pic

[NodCommander]

hopefully not

They could always make it so that the target box doesn't show up when the enemy is behind a wall or structure, when using free-aim. Would make hugging relatively the same as it is now, while still giving free-aim its other uses.

I think this would be a fantastic solution to the v-button issue. V button is incredibly useful with open sniping or with rave/pic

What people do not seem to have understood is that sniping wont be the way it was (abused) in Old Renegade, or atleast it wont be as easy.

Free-aim should defenitely not be a priority, and I highly the initial lack of it will put players off. Unless you were one of those people playing on sniper-only servers, but then you were playing Renegade the wrong way in my opinion.

[SeriousSmiley]

Free aim favors wallhugging over aggressive play and is completely unintuitive to non-renegade players. I'm surprised the devs are even considering this, it was unintended and overpowered just like using terminals outside of buildings. Tunnelsniping used to be a lot more movement-based before people discovered just how useful that v button was...then it became a game of pure timing.

[Nielsen]

[HaTe]

Anyone who says free-aim was unintended makes me laugh. It should definitely be a priority, as most good renegade players use it, and will be upset if a key feature is left out in renegade x

[ehh]

fuck free aim

[alpha1995]

Free aim favors wallhugging over aggressive play and is completely unintuitive to non-renegade players. I'm surprised the devs are even considering this, it was unintended and overpowered just like using terminals outside of buildings. Tunnelsniping used to be a lot more movement-based before people discovered just how useful that v button was...then it became a game of pure timing.

Free aim isn't only for wallhugging. It's also incredibly useful in maintaining orientation. Rave/pic, ramjets, volts, and basically any character would have an easier time hitting fast moving targets, such as orcas or apcs, while also maintaining a stable field of view. It's a difficult concept to explain, but I'm sure most veteran renegade players will agree. For example, I often use free aim when repairing tanks in field since it allows me to see where my character is in relation to enemy tank movements and friendly tank positions.

Additionally, since free aim eliminates camera movement, it prevents FPS from dropping in high-intensity firefights. Since many people don't have incredible graphics capabilities, free aim would be a very useful tool.

On the note of free aim not encouraging aggressive play, I beg to differ. Third person view naturally creates wallhuggers regardless (let's face it, basically every game with a 3rd person view has players who abuse walls). Free aim greatly helps players attack around corners during an approach (imagine a situation in which a shotgunner approaches a corner hugging sniper). Without free aim, the player would have to pan the entire camera to engage a single enemy around a corner, potentially neglecting other dangers. The addition of a V key would allow the player to make more effective assaults, and thus improve gameplay. The absence of a V key would do nothing to address the issue of wallhuggers, while also depriving renegade of a subtle, yet crucial and familiar element.

[SeriousSmiley]

Anyone who says free-aim was unintended makes me laugh. It should definitely be a priority, as most good renegade players use it, and will be upset if a key feature is left out in renegade x

It wasn't intended for wallhugging. Good players use it because it's effective, not because they believe it enhances gameplay, I would know. Being able to view and shoot your opponent's entire body while only showing part of your own is silly unless the entire game is built around a cover system like Gears.

[NodCommander]

Anyone who says free-aim was unintended makes me laugh. It should definitely be a priority, as most good renegade players use it, and will be upset if a key feature is left out in renegade x

Renegade X is not a Renehade clone. Its a modernisation of the old game. Just because somethings was in one way in the original it doesnt mean it will be that way in X.

[HaTe]

Anyone who says free-aim was unintended makes me laugh. It should definitely be a priority, as most good renegade players use it, and will be upset if a key feature is left out in renegade x

It wasn't intended for wallhugging. Good players use it because it's effective, not because they believe it enhances gameplay, I would know. Being able to view and shoot your opponent's entire body while only showing part of your own is silly unless the entire game is built around a cover system like Gears.

Why is that silly? And I clearly must not know because I was awful at renegade, so the skill and use of free-aim must therefore be beyond me, huh?

[HaTe]

Anyone who says free-aim was unintended makes me laugh. It should definitely be a priority, as most good renegade players use it, and will be upset if a key feature is left out in renegade x

Renegade X is not a Renehade clone. Its a modernisation of the old game. Just because somethings was in one way in the original it doesnt mean it will be that way in X.

Thanks for informing me.

[Daedhart]

Free aim? This isnt Duck Hunt!

In all seriousness (or what little there is with me), Im split on the idea of free aim. I was a sniper, but I never used it myself. I can see how it could give an unfair advantage if used properly, but I know a lot of snipers really liked it.

Though it shouldnt come as a surprise that this new game is not a warts-and-all reproduction. If it drops, Im not going to lose sleep. If it is reinstated, maybe this time around Ill try using it to see what the fuss is all about.

[R315r4z0r]

I used it almost constantly in Renegade.

But I really don't care either way. It would be nice to have but I really won't miss it if it's not included.

[ErroR]

I'd like free aim. It used to make tracking people so much easier. Never had problems with wall hugging or used it myself.

[Itai795]

Call me a noob if you want, but I'm playing Renegade since 2002, and discovered the free-aim only 2 weeks ago. I've always used the lock camera to vehicle turret option. When I'm trying to play with free-aim, don't think it's very useful. I've managed to play without it for 12 years and have never thought I've been missing something anyway.

[R315r4z0r]

Call me a noob if you want, but I'm playing Renegade since 2002, and discovered the free-aim only 2 weeks ago. I've always used the lock camera to vehicle turret option. When I'm trying to play with free-aim, don't think it's very useful. I've managed to play without it for 12 years and have never thought I've been missing something anyway.

I was the same way. It's not very intuitive when you discover it. But after you practice with it for a bit it becomes a handy tool to have in infantry fights.

[SeriousSmiley]

Anyone who says free-aim was unintended makes me laugh. It should definitely be a priority, as most good renegade players use it, and will be upset if a key feature is left out in renegade x

It wasn't intended for wallhugging. Good players use it because it's effective, not because they believe it enhances gameplay, I would know. Being able to view and shoot your opponent's entire body while only showing part of your own is silly unless the entire game is built around a cover system like Gears.

Why is that silly? And I clearly must not know because I was awful at renegade, so the skill and use of free-aim must therefore be beyond me, huh?

It's silly in terms of gameplay mechanics because it favors a cover hugging playstyle in a game without a cover system. If you expose yourself in a fight, you should at least gain the upper hand in vision - that's how it works in every other FPS. I don't know or care how good you are, I was simple speaking from the perspective of a top player who used the v-button to shoot around corners to great success, but always thought it a cheap thing to do and I know wrs hates it even more than I do.

You and some others are acting like this was an essential part of the Renegade experience like the C&C mode and balanced maps independent of game size, when it's actually a W3D engine quirk that we should be happy about leaving in the past. Should we take out the player physics and make the animations really crude so that you can warp by quickly strafing side to side? After all, that was another popular/essential aspect of Renegade infantry combat.

[omega79]

I used it from start ... but like 90% only for tanks

[XD_ERROR_XD]

IMO. Renegade would not be the same thing without free aim. It simply is so useful for long-range 1v1's (not sniper), repairing tanks, covering your flanks, sniping and more.

Yes, i completely agree that sniping was OP in Renegade, partly because of free aim, but it's really unfair to point all fingers to free aim as if it's the only problem to it. I believe with the current tiny reticle current snipers have this problem already is solved, but we really can't discuss a feature that's not even made yet. In order to confirm what we all said, we need experience, not from a 13 year old game, but from Renegade X, it's spiritual successor that has been completely remade offering differing gameplay.

You guys are severely underestimating the usefulness of free-aim. Not as an annoyance because a sniper uses it, but as a universal tool. You have to remember that the tools a sniper use, someone else also can use to counter for it. Almost no situation in renegade was uncounterable, and that made the way for many epic combacks since renegade was made. If we complain about how overpowered it is, instead of thinking how you should bypass the problem and using it to your advantage, we're not giving free aim a fair chance in this game.

Free aim is just as an essential part of renegade as snipers, i'm absolutely sure of it. I'm sure there have been at least as many people complaining that snipers are OP, but that hasn't been removed either. Instead you look for creative solutions and really make something better out of it. Something you should consider with free aim as well.

[cirex]

**Please correct me if I'm wrong**

For as I know, there won't be a V-button (free-aim) in Renegade-X with the release. However I haven't seen any post regarding to this subject in which stated that the dev-team is going to add the V-button soon or give it any importance. We have all played C&C Renegade and I would be a pain in the ass to play the game without a v-button. I am not a game developer and I appreciate all the efforts made for this game. I do hope that the V-button will be implemented soon because otherwise many gamers might actually stop playing the game after some days / hours after the release, which would be a shame!

Hopefully someone of the dev-team can reassure me that it is on the shortlist for development, otherwise I predict a short future .

Knock, knock, 21th century here. Its not Renegade, the game is supposed to be work a bit different, get used to it, since the old times of Renegade will never be the same, NEVER.

I don't think stuff needs to be added, just because they are "effective". They should add the OB-gun since it was "effective" and useful.

[omega79]

maybe limit free aim to tanks ...

[SeriousSmiley]

Free aim is just as an essential part of renegade as snipers, i'm absolutely sure of it. I'm sure there have been at least as many people complaining that snipers are OP, but that hasn't been removed either. Instead you look for creative solutions and really make something better out of it. Something you should consider with free aim as well.

If you take the snipers out of Renegade the vehicle/unit balance will shift and tactics on every map would change (likely for the worse). It's clearly essential to Renegade balance/gameplay.

If you take out free aim all you get is a few Renegade players complaining about how their crutch was taken away. It doesn't shift the balance in any shape or form, the only difference is that sniper vs sniper (or pic/rave) duels will be less wallhumping-based (and I guess snipers will take a little more damage from other infantry units in tunnel fights, which isn't a bad thing either since snipers obviously weren't meant to be the most powerful infantry vs infantry unit at long, medium AND close range). The improved map already makes it easier for players to be aware of their surroundings, just learn to aim like in every other game ffs...free aim is not even close to "essential".

[HaTe]

I use it in renegade for every single infantry battle. How is it a crutch? You're acting like it somehow makes the game so much easier, or makes sniping op just because of a feature that locks the camera at a specified angle. It had its disadvantages of use too. Besides, like I said, you can always edit the feature to make it harder to hug with free-aim. Just make it so that no target box appears when you use free-aim at a character when there is a wall between you and him.

I don't use it much for hugging. I have always prided myself on being an open player, and I was also known as one of the best snipers in the game. I would never give free-aim credit for that, because while it is nice to use, so as to not get a heahache watching my screen shake so much from the shifting camera from my snappy play and high sensitivity, it is not making it easier for me to hit my targets. Just watch this for a minute and I hope you can understand how annoying it would get for someone like me to snipe or use any infantry without free-aim:

I would just prefer to have the option to have the camera stay in one designated place when engaged in battle is all.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Guest

[ehh]

free aim is terrible

and you use free aim in tanks? haha

[omega79]

used free aim to look around and shoot at different targets while still pushing forward ...

but i used left shift, not sure if i rebound it or if i mix things up

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Free aim is just as an essential part of renegade as snipers, i'm absolutely sure of it. I'm sure there have been at least as many people complaining that snipers are OP, but that hasn't been removed either. Instead you look for creative solutions and really make something better out of it. Something you should consider with free aim as well.

If you take the snipers out of Renegade the vehicle/unit balance will shift and tactics on every map would change (likely for the worse). It's clearly essential to Renegade balance/gameplay.

If you take out free aim all you get is a few Renegade players complaining about how their crutch was taken away. It doesn't shift the balance in any shape or form, the only difference is that sniper vs sniper (or pic/rave) duels will be less wallhumping-based (and I guess snipers will take a little more damage from other infantry units in tunnel fights, which isn't a bad thing either since snipers obviously weren't meant to be the most powerful infantry vs infantry unit at long, medium AND close range). The improved map already makes it easier for players to be aware of their surroundings, just learn to aim like in every other game ffs...free aim is not even close to "essential".

It's very funny how you COMPLETELY ignored the entire arguementation of my post and based you entire arguement on that small part. You're forgetting about:

I believe with the current tiny reticle current snipers have this problem already is solved, but we really can't discuss a feature that's not even made yet. In order to confirm what we all said, we need experience, not from a 13 year old game, but from Renegade X, it's spiritual successor that has been completely remade offering differing gameplay.

Also,

You guys are severely underestimating the usefulness of free-aim. Not as an annoyance because a sniper uses it, but as a universal tool.

Also...

Almost no situation in renegade was uncounterable, and that made the way for many epic combacks since renegade was made.

Regarding your post on free aim and snipers. Last but not least:

If we complain about how overpowered it is, instead of thinking how you should bypass the problem and using it to your advantage, we're not giving free aim a fair chance in this game.

By having said this, it's completely unfair to NOT add free aim because of the sole reason of snipers, which have already been rebalanced to make them less overpowered. Free aim is useful for waaaaay more situations then sniping only. I'm pretty sure you would have not said all of that if you actually used free aim for something else then shooting an enemy. This counts for everyone which discussed this, really.

[SeriousSmiley]

^I only quoted part of that because it was a wall of text. Your argument logically hinges on the current sniper classes in Renegade X being fundamentally broken and only salvegeable by introducting the "essential" free aim feature. This is obviously not the case. Everything else I've already answered in other posts.

I use it in renegade for every single infantry battle. How is it a crutch? You're acting like it somehow makes the game so much easier, or makes sniping op just because of a feature that locks the camera at a specified angle. It had its disadvantages of use too. Besides, like I said, you can always edit the feature to make it harder to hug with free-aim. Just make it so that no target box appears when you use free-aim at a character when there is a wall between you and him.

I don't use it much for hugging. I have always prided myself on being an open player, and I was also known as one of the best snipers in the game. I would never give free-aim credit for that, because while it is nice to use, so as to not get a heahache watching my screen shake so much from the shifting camera from my snappy play and high sensitivity, it is not making it easier for me to hit my targets. Just watch this for a minute and I hope you can understand how annoying it would get for someone like me to snipe or use any infantry without free-aim:

I would just prefer to have the option to have the camera stay in one designated place when engaged in battle is all.

It made sniping OP once you had a huggable object nearby that you could either shoot past or over. More importantly though, it made sniper/rave/pic battles static and primarily based on timing instead of movement/aim...that's just shitty gameplay for fast paced game and the main reason I don't want this relic in Renegade X. Removing the target box won't make it any less powerful, the crosshair will still lock on as you sidestep to take your shot...you're doing damage by only exposing a small part of your hitbox while retaining full vision.

Using free aim in the open is actually a disadvantage, you just don't realize this because you're so used to it. Your movement becomes slightly more predictable and you're very vulnerable at close range. One of my favorite things to do on pub servers was to ambush guys like you with a chaingunner and run circles around you. I know me, wrs and simpee didn't use it heavily...90% sure Kill didn't either, that's the 4 best aimers on clanwars right there. You'll become a better player by learning to aim like non-Renegade players do instead of getting the devs to carry over an abusable eccentric feature.

I don't know why anyone would ever want to use free aim in a vehicle, that's purely masochistic.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Guest

[ehh]

if any of you played renegade recently, you'd understand that no free aim would improve game play.

Especially infantry combat.

[HaTe]

Somehow doubt you'd run circles around me, my friend. You still have to go all the way out with or without free-aim....free-aim changes nothing in that respect. Invisi hugging or glitch hugging was due to renegade's poor netcode, and wouldn't be even close to the same in renegade x. Hugging would be the exact same with or without free-aim if you made the target box not visible through walls when using free-aim.

The people you mentioned were the best clanwars players, but none of them would even be seen in a sniper server recently (when htmn or tristt try, they generally are slightly above average, but not among the elite in sniper servers). I realize that sniper servers aren't that important to you or the gameplay here, but the point is that free-aim is used by the best infantry players. The people you mentioned are some of the best tank fighters, and very good with infantry, but not among the best with infantry. I've played with or against them.

[SeriousSmiley]

If the Deadeye at the end of your video can do it, I'm pretty sure I could as well. You only have to expose half of your model if the target is to right of the wall you're hugging because the shots originate from the gun (unless you're in 1st person); I'm not talking about invisi hugging. Hugging wouldn't be the same because right now you can't look AND aim around corners simultaneosly. That's what made this the dominant playstyle in Renegade, only exposing part of your model is just a minor bonus. Not going to get into a pointless dickmeasuring contest between clanwar players and professional tunnelsnipers..

I'm clearly not going to persuade you, but you will need to come up with a better argument than "I'm so used to it" when the other side has detailed how the feature would lead to static gameplay with single shot weapons primarily based on timing instead of movement/aim.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

^I only quoted part of that because it was a wall of text. Your argument logically hinges on the current sniper classes in Renegade X being fundamentally broken and only salvegeable by introducting the "essential" free aim feature. This is obviously not the case. Everything else I've already answered in other posts.

You are completely missing my point for the second time. Are you even listening?

1. I have said that snipers have been rebalanced to make them less overpowered in Renegade X. Yet, these changes have absolutely nothing to do in free aim. What you're basically telling me is that i seemingly said that snipers NEED free aim to be useful, which is nonsense.

2. My post has almost nothing to do with sniping. What i did say is that i believe because of the tiny reticle snipers will have less of an advantage then they used to with free aim. Why? Because it's harder to keep track of a tiny dot on your screen.

3. Furthermore, again you are completely ignoring the fact that free aim is not only being used by snipers. They're used by technicians/hotwires so they can more safely repair vehicles, long-range firefights with automatic rifles, close-range firefights with automatic rifles, and whatnot. Trust me, with a steady hand i can turn circles around an enemy just as easy as i could without free aim. Free aim basically allows me to position my shots much more accurately, instead of the usual 'pay and spray' others would do without free aim.

Please, just once, actually read carefully through this post before you start selling me more nonsense i have not even said.

[Nielsen]

I'll put this thread out of its misery, it's highly unlikely that free aim will make it in.

DISCUSS! (or rather, don't!)

[ehh]

Thank you <3

Hopefully x/180-spin won't be either.

[Nielsen]

If it's up to me that'll not be in either but there's still some discussion surrounding that.

[SeriousSmiley]

"Highly unlikely" is not good enough given the enviable strength of my argument, we shall DISCUSS this even harder!

[HaTe]

I mean I've played clanwars, lobby wars, and community wars plenty, but I guess your dickmeasuring is based off of a ruler whereas mine is a yard stick. But really, it doesn't help hugging. The only reason it does as is is because of the target box making it easier. Take that away, as I have suggested, and it is the same. You can already see around walls in third person regardless. The only thing it does is give the camera a fixed position.

I understand why the devs wouldn't want it, but I think that if they just took the suggestion I had into consideration, there really isn't any advantage to it, making it just a preference thing.

[SeriousSmiley]

I mean I've played clanwars, lobby wars, and community wars plenty, but I guess your dickmeasuring is based off of a ruler whereas mine is a yard stick. But really, it doesn't help hugging. The only reason it does as is is because of the target box making it easier. Take that away, as I have suggested, and it is the same. You can already see around walls in third person regardless. The only thing it does is give the camera a fixed position.

I understand why the devs wouldn't want it, but I think that if they just took the suggestion I had into consideration, there really isn't any advantage to it, making it just a preference thing.

There's a difference between looking around walls and aiming around walls. One requires you to move past the wall and then line up your target, the other lets you line up your target even before moving past the wall. The latter is obviously more effective and denying objective advantages because you enjoy them doesn't help your credibility. Your target box suggestion doesn't change this fundamental difference btw.

[Valor]

If it's up to me that'll not be in either but there's still some discussion surrounding that.

180 is in many games as a default feature, I don't know why it should be taken out of Ren X, as it doesn't offer any exploits like free aim does. I know some gaming mouses have programmable buttons to do this too.

Back to free aiming, is it even possible with the engine? If it's too much trouble to program it in, then we could avoid this whole argument.

[ehh]

like what games

[RypeL]

Hawken for example

[SeriousSmiley]

A beta tester broke his neck while attempting a quick 180° turn with the Occulus Rift, something had to be done.

[ehh]

so just indie games i've never heard of cool.

[HaTe]

I mean I've played clanwars, lobby wars, and community wars plenty, but I guess your dickmeasuring is based off of a ruler whereas mine is a yard stick. But really, it doesn't help hugging. The only reason it does as is is because of the target box making it easier. Take that away, as I have suggested, and it is the same. You can already see around walls in third person regardless. The only thing it does is give the camera a fixed position.

I understand why the devs wouldn't want it, but I think that if they just took the suggestion I had into consideration, there really isn't any advantage to it, making it just a preference thing.

There's a difference between looking around walls and aiming around walls. One requires you to move past the wall and then line up your target, the other lets you line up your target even before moving past the wall. The latter is obviously more effective and denying objective advantages because you enjoy them doesn't help your credibility. Your target box suggestion doesn't change this fundamental difference btw.

I'm not sure why you think that and I am curious to find out. Put it into a situation in renegade and tell me how you think it won't effect it. I'll even go in and fraps to try and have you understand that it would not make hugging any easier.

And yes, if the problem is that you can't make it - save us the trouble lol. I'm 100% for 180 spin as well. I used that very often and it was a nice feature.

[Daedhart]

Free aim is just as an essential part of renegade as snipers, i'm absolutely sure of it. I'm sure there have been at least as many people complaining that snipers are OP, but that hasn't been removed either. Instead you look for creative solutions and really make something better out of it. Something you should consider with free aim as well.

If you take the snipers out of Renegade the vehicle/unit balance will shift and tactics on every map would change (likely for the worse). It's clearly essential to Renegade balance/gameplay.

If you take out free aim all you get is a few Renegade players complaining about how their crutch was taken away. It doesn't shift the balance in any shape or form...

Ok, not trying to put myself in the crosshairs or argue for or against (because I really dont care about it enough), but Mr Smiley has a point here and I thought Id add some context to it.

Imagine what would happen if Valve said it was removing grenades from CS:S. The shit would hit the fan in apocalyptic proportions. There would be so much complaining, their forums would probably crash. Yet if they actually did remove them, the game wouldnt be less fun...if anything, itd only make it better. We need look no further than TF2 to see that grenades are not a necessity in FPS's. They were something that only a select few really mastered and gave them a huge advantage because of it, an advantage that couldnt be countered easily (at least for somebody that didnt play CS:S every waking hour).

Having said that, grenades were a part of the game since the beginning and removing them would be an odd decision. However, since RenX is a new game and not a direct remake, I dont think its fair to criticize it for not having free aim any more than I could criticize a remake of CS:S for not including grenades.

[HaTe]

But renegade x added grenades

The point was to add on to the oringal concept of renegade, whilst removing bugs and having better graphics, netcode, and tweaking other things.

To remove a key component would be a poor decision in my opinion. The devs removed the tiberium Sydney, as well as removing the tiberium flachette as an immediate purchasable option. So far no complaints have been made about those though. You see, we understand that its a new game and everything, but free-aim was a large part of what made renegade so fun, in my eyes and many others' too. I think it should be tweaked based on my suggestion, but removing it entirely is a big turnoff.