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goztow

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Posts posted by goztow

    Balancing teams

    in Feedback & Bug Reports

    Posted

    As requested, I create a seperate topic for this.

    I want to suggest the games to be balanced based on the points a player got in the last game. Blackintel had this on their Ren server, they can surely complete my info.

    If you want to please friends playing together then there should also be a clan tag that makes you have a better chance of being on the same team. In Bf4 this system exists and I find it enjoyable to know I will be able to work together with my clan mates. The game balancer should also balance out different clans so they are not on the same team.

    In RenX belonging to a clan should be as easy as to add the clan tag when you choose your name. that way there's no need to go through a complete process of creating clans.

    So here's how I see it. Say in example 1 there are 10 players from last game in this game and 4 new players. None of them are in the same clan. The 10 players that were in last game are ordered from 1 to 10, based on the points. Player 1, 4, 5, 7, 9 go on GDI. Player 2, 3, 6, 8, 10 go on Nod. The 4 new players are randomly added to the teams to ensure they have correct numbers.

    Now let's say in example 2 that within the 10 players, there are 3 people that have clantag A: 1 of them is on Nod, 2 of them are are on GDI. The balancer should swap the GDI player to Nod and in return swap the player that was closest to him in rank order from Nod to GDI.

    In example 3, within the 10 players, there are 3 people that have eachother on friendslist A and 2 people that have clantag B. The balancer will try to place them together but will also ensure that clan A is not on the same side as clan B as we can suppose that people playing together might have better teamwork.

    To illustrate.

    Example 1:

    GDI: 1, 4, 5, 7, 9, NEW1, NEW2

    Nod: 2, 3, 6, 8, 10, NEW3, NEW4

    Example 2:

    GDI: A1, A3, A5, 7, 9, NEW1, NEW2

    Nod: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, NEW3, NEW4

    Example three:

    GDI: A1, A3, A5, 6, 8, NEW1, NEW2

    Nod: 2, 4, B7, B9, 10 NEW3, NEW_B4

    There could be some sort of limit on the number of clan players a single side can have. E.g. maximum 75 % of the players on one side can be of the same clan.

    Discuss these ideas :).

    Field

    in Feedback & Bug Reports

    Posted

    I'm not sure 1v1 games are or have ever been indicative of team work. I suggest you do not take these into account. I do, however, respect you for your experience and I will take your word for being an experienced and skillful player. I'm happy to have find you on these forums / this game :-).

    A lower vehicle count actually favors nod more than GDI when you take into account that Nod has the ability to utilize technicians more than GDI has the ability to utilize hotwires on Field.

    Yes, this was indeed what I was stating. On larger player counts, Nod is favoured by this. On lower player counts it does not interfere.

    Oh? I respectfully disagree.

    Allow me to use a bit of mathematical proof as evidence.

    A single tech'd arty will kill a med tank in ~13 seconds.

    A single med will kill a tech'd arty in ~5 minutes (yes, you read that right).

    Now, what you're saying is that (somehow) GDI was able to get 5 med tanks, and for whatever reason, nod only decided to get 3 arties and 2 technicians. Once again, somehow, all of these tanks happened to meet in the field at the exact same time. Taking away the improbability of this to begin with, nod will still manage to win out a cool majority of the time if we're talking about experienced and quality players. I could put scenarios in all day to prove it; but to save time, I simply put the end game results in statistical format in the original post.

    Not somehow... It's a 5v5 game. It is probable that when you're working as a team, GDI will try to get a majority of medium tanks while Nod will get a majority of teched arts. Yes, I made it a bit "simple", every game is different of course. And if you work as a team, you will try to move out more or less as a group. And of course the medium tanks will not just stand there and shoot the arts from a distance, they will push forward to attack the arts / technicians. Will this happen very often? From my personal experience, Field with equal teams working together was a game of taking / loosing the field, so yes... I must add that once GDI gets their meds into position at med hill / around the Nod tiberium area, it's pretty darn hard to get them out of there.

    In my experience, with two equal skilled teams, nod will win 90% of the games on Field, regardless of the player count or vehicle limit.

    I respectfully disagree. Evil white dragon used to keep statistics on this for our servers (TK2 and BI) and they showed an almost 50 / 50 win / loss ratio on all standard maps. I found a reference back here: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php ... msg_326294 . Yes, it dates from 2008, but the game hasn't changed. I'll ask him if he still has the details, but I doubt it.

    As said before, from my personal experience (in smaller games), GDI had an advantage at the game start with their better rifle soldiers attacking / defending the harv (+ getting the very important crate!) and the grenadiers racking up points (hence credits) through tunnels, while Nod had quicker access to their tanks but less armour. This balances out quite nicely.

    I do not know what the exact setup of Jelly currently is. I should have pointed out that donations / starting credits was not a specific argument against your statistics. I'm not actually trying to argument against your stats anyway, they are what they are and they clearly show that on Jelly server you will have a higher probability to win when playing on Nod. I just wanted to point out that these statistics are only representative for the server that generated them and that other people may have a different experience on other servers.

    We will see how it rolls once RenX, with its own specifics, will be released / beta tested. Until then we're speculating. It's good to seei nterest :).

    In AOW, hitting buildings gets your more points than anything else. Getting more points wins you the game. In marathon, you have to hit a building or rush a building to win the game. Nod has a huge advantage in hitting buildings and rushing buildings on Field. I'm not judging the map on the building placements, I'm criticizing the layout of the map, and providing statistical evidence proving that it is flawed in that it drastically favors one faction.

    I'm stating that it does not matter that much, you either get the field (winning tank battles) or you don't. The difference is not as drastic as it is on islands, where GDI can shoot the Nod buildings from its closest island.

    I actually don't disagree with your suggestions of taking off the hand ramp. I read / heard that RenX wants to make maps more open. I'm 100 % in favour of this. If anything, the more different ways to destroy a base, the better. I just think it will not make much of a difference.

    I guess what triggered my warning bells was the first a part of this sentence:

    The arty may very well be nerfed

    But I now understand that this wasn't actually a suggestion of your own. So peace and I'll hopefully see you on the battlefield :).

    Field

    in Feedback & Bug Reports

    Posted

    I'm very interested in these kind of discussions, having always been very interested in the tactical gameplay in Renegade. I have no experience with Renegade-X yet but I'd like to counter some things that Anonymously has stated for Renegade and I'd like to issue a warning.

    First of all I'd like to thank the TS for opening this type of discussions and for his well constructed arguments. It seems to me however, that what anonymously is pointing out is not map related but is related to the server setup of Jelly server.

    Jelly's main server is marathon and 51 players. Most of the time it has 24+ players.

    TK2 (my clan) has ran public and CW servers up to max 20 players with standard AOW setup for many years. My experience learned me that with proper teamwork, GDI was more or less unbeatable on Field on our server setup. One of the reasons was actually Renegade's stock vehicle limit. Renegade has a vehicle limit of 7 tanks + the harvester.

    For the sake of the argument, I will make some very simple comparaisons, that aren't 100 % realistic but that will make things clearer.

    Let's say you play a 5v5 game. GDI gets 5 Meds while Nod will get 3 arts with 2 technicians. The 5 Meds will always slaughter the 3 arts when fighting as a group. They will also slaughter 5 arts if they have no dedicated repairers.

    Let's say you have 10v10. GDI has 7 Meds + 3 snipers. Nod has 7 arts + 3 techs. Guess who will win?

    But let's say you have 20v20. GDI has 7 meds + 7 repairers + . Nod has 7 arts + 7 repairers + . In this situation, Nod will have the advantage thanks to the splash and the range of the art. It has also been proven to be much harder to get teamwork going in these larger games.

    You could point out that a flaw in my comparaison is to compare Meds (800) with arts (450). But let's be honnest, this is very often what it turns out to. Guess why the GDI soldier does more damage than the Nod soldier? So GDI has a bigger chance of destroying the enemy harvester while keeping its own. In very early game, Nod has a disadvantage on its economy, which is some what compensated by early access to artilleries. If GDI can keep Nod off until it gains access to the meds, then...

    A 2nd element is the marathon element and server added options like donating or starting credits. IMO marathon is a very unnatural game mode for Renegade on base defense maps. It is simply too easy to defend on a map like Field or Under or even city flying. The thrill of having very even points at the end of a game can be much more exciting than waiting for the enemy to get bored and start making mistakes and then loosing a building. I remember a game (internal training clan war with TK2) where we won the game thanks to a raveshaw hitting a building in the last second. 50 points difference! What a thrill on teamspeak :). Donating and starting credits in early game take out the advantage GDI has at the game start for their economy. What's the use of have an advantage in taking out Nod's harvester if Nod can simply donate or use starting credits to get their arts anyway?

    Now it's surely true that GDI seems to require some more teamwork on Field, but if you have this teamwork, then I dare to say that (on servers with up to 24 players anyways), GDI has a better chance of winning than Nod. Ask any clanwar player if they prefer GDI or Nod on standard field (with a time limit), they'll answer GDI.

    TS seems to make the mistake of "judging" (for a lack of a better word) the map on the building placements. IMO Renegade is a tank game. It doesn't matter where the enemy building is, if you own the field with tanks.

    To end this post just a friendly warning. Do not make the mistake that many server owners made in Renegade. Do not start changing unit's characteristics because you think one side or one map is biased towars one or the other side. There will always be people saying GDI is OP or Nod is OP. In reality, by some miracle Westwood managed to make Renegade very balanced on different types of games (rush maps, base defense maps, small, big, ...). The more you are going to change the original characteristics, the more problems you will have because changing one unit will always have consequences for other units.

    I'm also very aware that Renegade will not be Renegade-x. But the comparaison will be inevitable. So let's use our experience in Renegade to improove Renegade-X.

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