pls remove custom maps from rotation

[NodSaibot]

in normal servers. @Fffreak9999 ty
they kill the server and take 20 years to download. impossible for me and others to play it

[Agent]

I think this is more an issue with download server bandwidth than actual custom content or the download mechanism. When 64 players all hit the download at the same time, if that server only has 1 Gb/s uplink, that means that the average player will have at most 15.625 Mb/s, or a little under 2 MB/s. That assumes the server's upload is fully utilized, which it may very well not be. The burst bandwidth demand is just way too high for their server setup.

Custom content desperately needs to be moved to some sort of shared CDN, which I've already poked at freaky and Goku about privately slightly, for the aforementioned reason.

[RypeL]

Im sure they are watching the situation, but its up to them what maps they use. 

What i really wish we had is a custom map downloader in the launcher, so that it downloads all maps before you even join.

[Fffreak9999]

54 minutes ago, RypeL said:

Im sure they are watching the situation, but its up to them what maps they use. 

What i really wish we had is a custom map downloader in the launcher, so that it downloads all maps before you even join.

We used to, but Agent removed it a while back.

[Goku]

30 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

We used to, but Agent removed it a while back.

I've also been asking for this to be added to the launcher. Would be great if it went yeh server is on under but uses these 3 custom maps download in the background?

[Agent]

6 hours ago, RypeL said:

What i really wish we had is a custom map downloader in the launcher, so that it downloads all maps before you even join.

To be as clear as possible, this is not an issue with the download mechanism. A launcher downloader would be susceptible to the exact same issues, except even more so since it'd be a centralized repository. It also doesn't really make sense to download potentially massive amounts of custom content that you're very likely to not need (i.e: a custom map server loaded with many custom levels would no longer be viable).

The previous launcher based solution wasn't well thought out, and can't be re-added. This has been discussed internally repeatedly. An in-game solution should be preferred, and the in-game solution should ideally only download custom content on demand, which the current mechanism does. Again, this isn't an issue with the download mechanism, this is a server infrastructure issue. We can't just invent more bandwidth.

[Reivax]

a few days ago we was on.. CT if i'm right and ppl picked Madkyll's new map - Frostbite if i'm right - but ppl forget they need to download the map.. i'm lucky cuz i've already downloaded the map on a testing server, so we was a few to already had the map, but most players (80+%) was stucked on a downloading screen.. while we was playing  but suddenly, it appeared nod harvester was stucked.. oO i was GDI, so can't check that, but Madkyll already know this issue
we done change map vote, and began Island - everyone suddenly joined cuz their download suddenly stopped to join Islands or smth like that
and ppl was like "wtf just happened?" and it's how a "wtf" spam was born in global chat  
so.. i think if nod harvester was stucked at the 1st minute, testers have found this bug before pick the map on public server
now my question is: why put a map with critical bugs on public server? (if GDI can use his harv but not Nod it's a.. little problem)

[Reivax]

about Steppe i can't say anthing - i've joined as Nod - yea i was able to visit with sbh  - and i've lost smth like 5 mins later, Nexus led GDI team with waves of mammies and meds while Nod was chilling around with sbh to visit maps.. it was fun

hi Agent  about download custom contents, months ago i've thinked "hey, but why players must download custom things? why not add them in the next patch?" so i ask you this question: why you don't put the new maps / mutators / other custom contents in the next patch, instead of release 'em on the servers, who force players to download them and sometimes with horrible low speed (thx my internet provider)

[NodSaibot]

4 minutes ago, Reivax said:

now my question is: why put a map with critical bugs on public server? (if GDI can use his harv but not Nod it's a.. little problem)

^^^^^^^^^^
Please don't use public games as your guinea pigs. Make a patch and include the map if you're gonna do that

[Fffreak9999]

3 minutes ago, Agent said:

A launcher downloader would be susceptible to the exact same issues, except even more so since it'd be a centralized repository

Except what you are doing with the HTTP downloading atm is deferring the download till they "need" it, rather than before joining.

Since if people download before joining, it is less likely to put strain on the repository, since the bandwidth is more spread out over time than all at once.

[Fffreak9999]

3 minutes ago, buttons said:

why put a map with critical bugs on public server?

I wasn't aware of it having critical bugs, and assumed Madkill had done due diligence in testing for basic defects.

As for Frostbite, it has now been removed from CT Marathon's available map list.

[Agent]

1 minute ago, Reivax said:

hi Agent  about download custom contents, months ago i've thinked "hey, but why players must download custom things? why not add them in the next patch?" so i ask you this question: why you don't put the new maps / mutators / other custom contents in the next patch, instead of release 'em on the servers, who force players to download them and sometimes with horrible low speed (thx my internet provider)

The development team does not control what levels server owners load onto their servers. We often include new levels from the community in our game patches though, particularly the ones server owners seem interested in having on their servers, for exactly the reason you've mentioned. Again though, servers are capable of serving custom content from their servers if they make appropriate infrastructure decisions. Since this seems too complicated for the average server owner though, we're considering setting up a centralized custom content repository for FPI and CT to use (or any server by default).

 

1 minute ago, Fffreak9999 said:

Except what you are doing with the HTTP downloading atm is deferring the download till they "need" it, rather than before joining.

Yes, that's near-ideal. The only existing issues with the in-game download mechanism is that it doesn't notify you that a download is in progress when transitioning between levels, and it seems to have a timeout. Download speed is the largest existing issue, which again is an infrastructure issue, not a code one.

[Agent]

6 minutes ago, Fffreak9999 said:

Since if people download before joining, it is less likely to put strain on the repository, since the bandwidth is more spread out over time than all at once.

While this is technically true, it drastically increases the cost of initially joining a server, and makes custom content servers completely nonviable (since they may very well have to download several GB of content to join the server). That's not really a benefit.

[Reivax]

i was in GDI team and walking around
but Nod players noticed nod harvester wasn't working - i'll search if i've took screenshots but i'm not sure i'd took ss
if nod harvester is stucked in the first minutes of the game, i think it's a.. real issue
i've quickly visited Frostbite with Try-Out a few days before "public release" but it was laaate and i've not took time to seriously visit. i've noticed two problems: first is about minimap, it's a old minimap who doesn't match with actual maps - some rocks and stuffs exists on map but not on minimap -. the second problem is AGT missles: they can shoot through the huge radar dome in the middle of the map  
i think nod harvester problem have already been noticed but i've not seen that.. i remember visited the map months ago but it was a old version and afaik nod harv was working  

[Nexus51325]

How community mappers are suposed to test maps whitout putting them on public servers ?

[TomUjain]

1 hour ago, Agent said:

To be as clear as possible, this is not an issue with the download mechanism. A launcher downloader would be susceptible to the exact same issues, except even more so since it'd be a centralized repository. It also doesn't really make sense to download potentially massive amounts of custom content that you're very likely to not need (i.e: a custom map server loaded with many custom levels would no longer be viable).

The previous launcher based solution wasn't well thought out, and can't be re-added. This has been discussed internally repeatedly. An in-game solution should be preferred, and the in-game solution should ideally only download custom content on demand, which the current mechanism does. Again, this isn't an issue with the download mechanism, this is a server infrastructure issue. We can't just invent more bandwidth.

In all honesty, I think the most annoying part is expecting to join to then be greeted with a downloading screen. I do feel players would prefer to download the map(s) via the launcher where they are free to do other things instead of been stuck on a black screen.

Granted we might have a similar issue speed wise - but I don't think people will mind if the launcher was a bit more forthcoming with the player; for example when trying to join, if the player does not have that map a pop up error will say ' you do not have this map' instead of making them boot the game and boot straping them into a black screen.

It might also be helpful to have an option next to the server name (or even a forum thread) which lists all the custom maps / content the server is using - which they can access via the launcher at leisure without bottlenecking the download server.

[RypeL]

@AgentThe server admins already pay quite a bit so pls refrain from saying they are not paying enough and should even pay more so that everyone could download the maps AT THE SAME TiME wich obviously is much higher, ridicuouls bandwith demand and something very different then if every player would download maps from the launcher as that would stretch out the downloads a lot over time. Then theres also the timeout problem with ingame downloads it seems.

Im sure many people wouldnt mind letting the launcher download a bunch of maps if they get an indiaction how much maps/time is left. You could do 1 Million things while its downloading and its mostly a one time thing. Im sure servers dont put up a new custom map every day. Right now when its suddenly downloading ingame on a mapswitch you dont know whats going on though and how long it will take etc so thats a much more unpleasent situation. And saying if we would have launcher downloads the servers would be filled with gigabytes of custom maps is a claim not backed up by anything. Surely maps would go in and out of rotation. Often times maps few or single maps are put in public servers in order to test them.

 

[NodSaibot]

4 minutes ago, RypeL said:

@AgentThe server admins already pay quite a bit so pls refrain from saying they are not paying enough and should even pay more so that everyone could download the maps AT THE SAME TiME wich obviously is much higher, ridicuouls bandwith demand and something very different then if every player would download maps from the launcher as that would stretch out the downloads a lot over time. Then theres also the timeout problem with ingame downloads it seems.

Im sure many people wouldnt mind letting the launcher download a bunch of maps if they get an indiaction how much maps/time is left. You could do 1 Million things while its downloading and its mostly a one time thing. Im sure servers dont put up a new custom map every day. Right now when its suddenly downloading ingame on a mapswitch you dont know whats going on though and how long it will take etc so thats a much more unpleasent situation. And saying if we would have launcher downloads the servers would be filled with gigabytes of custom maps is a claim not backed up by anything. Surely maps would go in and out of rotation. Often times maps few or single maps are put in public servers in order to test them.

 

Guess it's a matter of creating the code to do it then. Though the programming team is running kind of dry right now, I'm sure someone will make time for it

[Nexus51325]

I want to add something..
Making a map take months, I do that for the community and for the game and I'm trying to do the best. I can udnerstand that is boring to have to download something when you already download the game.. and I learn from desolation that I absolutely don't have to send 5-6 version in 2 week lol, the actual Steppe Version will be the only one for a long moment.

Peace.. :X

Nexus

[TomUjain]

If this is something the team is struggling with, i'd be happy to take a stab at it - i've got enough code experience to get by, granted i'm no expert but willing to have a wholesole attempt.

[roweboat]

1 hour ago, Nexus51325 said:

How community mappers are suposed to test maps whitout putting them on public servers ?

Quoting this for importance. Maps need to be tested with a large playerbase, otherwise the map creators and bug testers will never perfect them.

 

Also, if possible, I think what might help, if there was a way in game, to maybe "highlight" the maps in a way, to show if they are already downloaded or included in game.

For example when picking a map, Frostbite might show in Orange, vs the standard red to indicate the map will requiring downloading before play.

 

Many players have no idea why when picking a new map, their game suddenly freezes or crashes

[Agent]

2 hours ago, RypeL said:

And saying if we would have launcher downloads the servers would be filled with gigabytes of custom maps is a claim not backed up by anything.

Here's what's currently on the CT custom maps & test server:

Spoiler

        "Levels": [
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Field_Winter",
                "GUID": "1ACE0ED54D8A85597F7771B8A64066DC"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Walls",
                "GUID": "E7A874DE432CC07BE004AC9D99164CDD"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Steppe",
                "GUID": "DB824B0D4B9F31020F2148B3A6C7BD67"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Frostbite",
                "GUID": "E030B9F84A6A399B8DB989981F05C231"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-GoldRush",
                "GUID": "9B0A609B4D9A24F9E56DE8A9A7431D5B"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Whiteout",
                "GUID": "43B90DA34D73CD35479F37A18307FB4A"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Islands",
                "GUID": "7A57827E4EBBC4E47ECA0AB95CF1602A"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Lakeside_Winter",
                "GUID": "DC56830D405E162182E4DF9A3DFBEC72"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Mesa",
                "GUID": "686230F848E9BAA5560A06879557E465"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Volcano",
                "GUID": "0FDC269345A7464B439457BF031D31A6"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Xmountain",
                "GUID": "2FFE694E4C7DBF6E54C21CBECE88E395"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Canyon",
                "GUID": "0F95AD8E4B352DB722AFD4ACD349D6A8"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Eyes",
                "GUID": "0742432040CF84446E845C991F371096"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Complex",
                "GUID": "71EBE32F433CB8AD2E0A5EA1B2972807"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Under",
                "GUID": "77896C5D4E56346E9D19A6B31B153A01"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-CliffSide",
                "GUID": "BCD53F01413E0D4668EF4980E6515E3C"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Crash_Site",
                "GUID": "8DD654CD464FD70EF6730EA9596255D2"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Field_X_Winter",
                "GUID": "A4FC1E274434B2EA17241581F55D724B"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Oasis",
                "GUID": "B4F4D9D6478A9132D76761B170D444B1"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Outposts",
                "GUID": "F225374644A49CC541A8F4A3A83421F8"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Reservoir_Snowy",
                "GUID": "75AD4F88465F7F8FF13C30844FAE4F6B"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Snow",
                "GUID": "3A23BAF244CE61BBBC03DBA0E9013CD4"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Snow_X",
                "GUID": "C78A438E4CF5A0B971E4CAB998C5C017"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Storm",
                "GUID": "CBC6EE374390F75F80999CA59FE97FD2"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Tomb",
                "GUID": "103AF3DF45A6BD6B71FFDFBB29858762"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Tunnels",
                "GUID": "7E6E404B40D42CDF3ED3E49FC2FDBC42"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Toxicity",
                "GUID": "3F78AB2F4DAE6D82D7A5B99A31A1778E"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Hourglass",
                "GUID": "FC2D02414F4223C5C3B542BD772931E0"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Uphill",
                "GUID": "2FCC1D844574ABFE0482688EB918668B"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Arctic_Stronghold",
                "GUID": "1C88D7F7478AD13750E49D8FDDB9D001"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Daybreak",
                "GUID": "83F0400E4FAABF918D328B875286FD91"
            },
            {
                "Name": "CNC-Desolation_Snowing",
                "GUID": "5A540515420AEBC48BF9278E3550033C"
            }
        ],
 

you may filter which ones are custom and add up the total size at your leisure. I assure you, at least these custom map servers exceed several GB of custom content. I'm shocked that's difficult to believe.

 

1 hour ago, TomUjain said:

If this is something the team is struggling with, i'd be happy to take a stab at it - i've got enough code experience to get by, granted i'm no expert but willing to have a wholesole attempt.

We have existing code in the version history for the launcher for the old download mechanism. It will not be readded, nor is that subject up for debate. I will not push any launcher updates containing such a downloader again, after the mistakes with the last one. As I've discussed with every single launcher dev since then, and they've agreed, an in-game solution is a much better approach than an out-of-game one for an entire host of reasons.

 

To emphasize what you're asking for: you are asking for a centralized download repository managed by the development team. This didn't work last time, due to slow downloads / lack of scalability (the previous solution was FTP based), and also it gates who can/can't add custom content. It takes away that right from server owners to determine where custom content is downloaded from. It takes away the right for server owners to put whatever content they want on their server, without clearing it by the dev team first to get it hosted.

 

2 hours ago, RypeL said:

@AgentThe server admins already pay quite a bit so pls refrain from saying they are not paying enough and should even pay more so that everyone could download the maps AT THE SAME TiME wich obviously is much higher, ridicuouls bandwith demand and something very different then if every player would download maps from the launcher as that would stretch out the downloads a lot over time. Then theres also the timeout problem with ingame downloads it seems.

CDNs are not that expensive, which is why I was previously entertaining the possibility of hosting a shared CDN for the servers and, as usual, paying for it myself, just like the rest of the official server infrastructure. I would strongly suggest not engaging in infrastructure or code conversations you don't have the context or knowledge to deal with; implying CDNs are some ultra expensive service is ridiculous. This isn't just some opinion I've pulled out of my ass, again I'm the one who originally pushed for a launcher-based download solution. I wrote tools and spent my team helping build that solution, and I spent time writing tools to replace that solution with a custom in-game one before we got the default UDK mechanisms working. I'm speaking from experience when I say, that solution will not work. You should consider listening to the Lead Programmer when they say there's damn good pragmatic reasons for why that solution didn't work, and should never be reintroduced through that approach. You haven't invested time and money into this issue -- I have.

Paying lip service and generating false hope for broken solutions to the public isn't helping anything. It's a waste time that could be spent elsewhere, and having to come in here to correct misinformation is extremely frustrating.

[Reivax]

11 hours ago, Nexus51325 said:

How community mappers are suposed to test maps whitout putting them on public servers ?

by.. putting them in patchs? i mean, we talk about RenegadeX, not a old C&C.. RenX have a lot of patches, i think there are enough to add maps to 'em without release them between patchs
and mappers can use this additionnal time to let guys test their maps or test it themselves and find more bugs, like this HON MCT who can be shooted from outside  

I love to see Renegade X with so many new stuffs, all these new players who are joining, and all these secret projects who will be released the September 2nd 2030   

i don't care about downloading maps if i know it will be necessary - i've spent so many hours on Try-Out servers hahahaha  
when i've downloaded MountHarbor for the first time, i've eaten while my game was downloading the map hihi  
when i play on FPI/CT, i eat when a game annoys me and i don't want to play it. but if i want join and i must wait for mins to download smth.. erh.. i could start my 2nd PC or just enjoy the tititititititititi (this weird sound when you download files on RenX and i've heard that a bit too often)

[Nexus51325]

Ok but, things doesn't work like that.
You can't say to devs, hello this is my new map, can you put it in the patch ?
No.. it need to be tested somewhere...

[Reivax]

hmm.. maybe it can be tested in PUGs? or after PUGs like a fun match? idk what pug guys do, but if FPI or CT is full, PUG players can join another server to chill, test new maps, play on Survival mode or drive MiGs on MountHarbor   
if the new map have critical bugs, it will be less "bothering" for the guys if players are just chilling for visit the map and look for bugs instead of "serious" 32v32 on usual public servers  

[Luhrian]

But you'll get the same problem that you have when you put it on the public servers. People need to download and often they don't have the patience or the internet connection to do so.

 

[RypeL]

Maybe we are even thinking too complicated ?

Like what about just a pop up when you hit join in the launcher that pops up if the server uses custom maps and has info like:

"This server uses custom maps. Pls downoad them from "ftp://...Maps.zip. Maps last updated on Nov 3rd 2019"

With a short info where to unzip and the zip could contain a readme aswell. Server admins could add the info to one of the game configs so that it would be send to the launcher like servername etc. And by checking the last update time players could know if they need to download again.

It wouldnt be perfect but would be a solution that should be doable with fairly limited effort in game and launcher changes and downloading would then just use a ftp or something.

[Nexus51325]

Anyway I give up lol

[Fffreak9999]

23 minutes ago, RypeL said:

Like what about just a pop up when you hit join in the launcher that pops up if the server uses custom maps and has info like:

"This server uses custom maps. Pls downoad them from "ftp://...Maps.zip. Maps last updated on Nov 3rd 2019"

Honestly, anything at the moment is worth testing.

[TomUjain]

I doubt very much that an in game download system will work either, considering the size of some of these maps and also considering some people are still on basic broadband speed - let us not forget that votes to change map / game ends quickly etc.... will also 'break' the download and simply kick the user back to title screen.

As it was suggested, the best way I can think of is to compile all the 'tested' maps into a zip file and put them into a monthly patch or add them to the roaster but not offically so downloads are not required.

The altnerative is to struggle with what we have, and increasing our speed 1000+ times won't solve the problem fully; or we are more forthcoming with putting out community maps.