Obelisk/AGT Adjustments

[RypeL]

I guess AGT and OB might need a small nerf. Some ideas are in this video:

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You can blame me for their AI as it was one of the first things i did for RenX way back. And i know ive see that video before but i guess i got carried away with other stuff and forgot about it. A new patch should come shortly and i dont have much planned for the one after that yet so i think its a good time to revisit Ob/AGT.

For that im looking for suggestions. I think the video makes some good points and i guess people would be pretty happy if AGT/Ob get a little nerfed. Especially if it would be in ways that lets you "outsmart" them i guess.

Things i gathered from the video:

- make obelisks side to side aim a bit worse so its easier to hide behind lanterns and such

- increase obelisk blindspots

- make AGT fire in bursts so it creates little windows of opportunity between bursts

- increase AGT spread

- increase blindspots for AGT MGs a bit

- increase blindspots for AGT rockets quite a bit

... ?

[RoundShades]

In leau of spread, I'd suggest slight travel time on AGT bullets. Like current Heavy Pistol amount of travel time. It can already lead shots anyway.

Burst fire on machineguns, excellent, that makes it reliably stop short of completely slaying infantry no matter how it's engaged, but still does massive and threatening damage. Just not too long between bursts, a 2 bullet delay between 4 shots is a lot already.

Oblesk, whether people like to believe or not, is already pretty balanced. Some infantry can tank the shot from it already, and the delay makes it already able to walk around. Most i'd give it, is a faster "uncharge" time, so when aggro'd and the sound goes away, it will no longer fire the moment you leave cover.

Both need much larger blindspots directly underneath. However, I feel that should be more for infantry, as both are more supposed to enforce a no-tank perimeter.

This is an interesting idea, just don't go too overboard with a nerf on them. SBH/Hotwires already end up random places all the time.

[DoctorB0NG]

@yagi The ob would be much more balanced if the animations weren't goofed up. When I get from vacation I'll get a video of it happening but the gist is that sometimes it looks like it's charged when it's not and vice versa. Also sometimes it looks like it has hit you when in reality it has hit a teammate.

[RypeL]

sometimes it looks like it's charged when it's not and vice versa. Also sometimes it looks like it has hit you when in reality it has hit a teammate.

These are probably replication/MP issues. Id most likely need help reproducing them.

[RoundShades]

sometimes it looks like it's charged when it's not and vice versa. Also sometimes it looks like it has hit you when in reality it has hit a teammate.

These are probably replication/MP issues. Id most likely need help reproducing them.

On top of these, there was a bug long ago, though can't remember if fixed honestly, where Oblesk dealt extra damage each time it fires in same aggro. Basically, if it charges, and fires, it's 200. But, if it continues to charge for another attack, that attack does 400 (or 2 shots, as iirc it could kill a tank and it's driver simultaneously).

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=75540&p=152875&hilit=obby+damage#p152875

The link above discussed Obby/AGT. It also brings up a semi-related point. You can easily die behind and to the sides of the Harvester. Is there any way, any way at all, the harvester can be made unable to kill from "crushing" from it's sides? I will accept the fact due to latency, it can kill 3 meters in front of it, but the sides kill so often when you stand just to the side of one.

[RypeL]

... It also brings up a semi-related point. You can easily die behind and to the sides of the Harvester. Is there any way, any way at all, the harvester can be made unable to kill from "crushing" from it's sides? I will accept the fact due to latency, it can kill 3 meters in front of it, but the sides kill so often when you stand just to the side of one.

Yes this should be pretty easy to do actually.

*edit*

Done. Should still make it into the upcomming patch.

[yosh56]

Stop putting them on maps..........................

No?

Just me?

[RypeL]

When I played old ren on LANs with like 5vs5 they were absolutely crucial. Player numbers matter and are part of the equation. That's a simple fact. The problem is that we don't have much diversity in servers right now.

But yeah: on 20vs20 I agree that they are bad. That's why most maps right now don't have them and that's also why they had low priority for the dev team to work on. But they have their niche, especially with low playernums or big maps with lots of base entrances.

Also when you watch the vid above you shall notice that there is a feel of accomplishment sneaking into a base with defenses. A map without defenses doesn't quite provide this feel of accomplishment in the same way. ... Anyway, bottom line: yes field with 40 players and defenses is a bad idea, but yes under the right circumstances defenses have their meaning aswell.

[Ryz]

I wouldn't want the obelisk removed, but a bit changed would be fine. One thing I REALLY think is important is the following:

- make obelisk target the 'heaviest / strongest unit first' OR exactly the opposite way. Now you can't rely on what's been hit. Sometimes I sneak in during a vehicle rush and the obelisk shoots me first instead of the vehicles, but it also happens vise versa.

I think one of the beta1 testers _error allready made a pretty specific topic about obelisk and AGT behaviour. In old Ren-x you could 'easier' evade both defense mechanism.

Good to see you working on this Rypel!

EDIT: I missed the fact that this post was created based on _errors post, but imo he is the men to talk to cause he wrote this down into detail.

[boxes]

Also probably slow down the AGT rocket back to beta 1 speed, and in return increase the range to match artys.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Hmm.... You see, the machineguns of RenX's AGT may deal less damage than the original, but this is because they are very consistent. You'd still die in seconds, but you can more reliably challenge it, without getting shot to the head immediately. I like this.

If the blind spot on these defences were increased, i could sneak into the Obelisk on field without entering the Airstrip first, and use the harvester (which now can be used as cover when exiting the tunnel) to get in the AGT unnoticed.

However... I honestly don't think these buildings need much more of a change. The only change i'd actually love to see is a speed reduction of the AGT missile. It's really, really fast! You often see me pulling off tricks what make the missile hit a wall instead, but it's really difficult now to do this.

What we need are small tweaks so mappers can more easily make opportunites to infiltrate them. And i think the blind spot honestly is the only matter that really needs changing to make this happen. It's just map design for the remainder.

If a map allows for sneaking too easily, the buildings will simply be camped more, which leads to stalemates. It needs to be possible, but made difficult. This is the most important part, really. Die 100 times, being laughed at by the enemy team, until you found the sweet spot and suddendly turn into a machine of destruction! Oh man, i love this

if i have to make examples of how it's done right, i would pick Whiteout. The Infantry only access route is at the edge of the base, therefore less crowded and it's hard to access aswell. Once you died 20 times before getting there, The game takes on an entirely different shape. Suddendly, you have to be as silent as a cougar, time everything perfectly until everyone is distracted or looks the different way, and you run! you get shot by the turret numerous times but nobody sees it happening! You get in the Power Plant and blow it up!

Walls does the same, but idk, It's just not as fun without the added challenge of base defences

By the way, i do have to agree about the playercount. There is not much that can be done about it until the numbers are more evenly spread. Ah well...

[Bananas]

I don't know the specifics of how agt/obelisk work in renx (or how they worked in ren because I forgot), but a max range would probably be good and useful for mappers. For example on goldrush the agt would shoot all the way to the middle building. On mesa, the obelisk used to be able to shoot all the way to the gdi base if you jumped in a specific spot. Makes it hard for mappers since they have to make sure there's no spots where they have line of sight.

I found this video of renegade as a good example I think. The obelisk having line of sight like in the beginning would just shoot at you.

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[DaKuja]

AGT needs bit slower Firerate with his Guns, maby the Range can stay at the same. But the RocketLauncher on the Top needs more Range not so much but like 5-10 yards should be givin'

Why? The Rockets are more then a Poke against Rushes and Sneakers (Rockets can most on most of the Maps dodged Running-Jumoing, run behind Covers), like against Flamers they got a huge amount of Ammo/Life no question they are not soo easy to kill no even if there are like 8-10 of them, with every Yard the Enemy comes near to the AGT he will feel more of the Burst from the AGT.

I think an AGT/Obi should do some serious amount of Damage against Rushes without that one of the Teams have to stay with 10+ Players in front of it to handle it without losing everything.

The AGT/Obi are like 90% of the Time the Target of all Rushes even on Field with Smoke and Engis Rushes!

It will be fair if they can defend them self better.

Obi Range had to be nerfed no question, the Range of the Obi is insane atm. Maby the Range nerf can be enough. Not even an MRLS can hit him without getting toasted if he has no Cover or the Obi got some Blindspots because there hanging some Rocks around or what ever.

[Mystic~]

There was also a thread discussing a low-powered version of base defenses once the Power Plant was destroyed.

https://renegade-x.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=169&t=75775&hilit=low+powered

[kenz3001]

the powerplant makes maps with defences berible to play

making defensece have a low power attack will just make decence maps even more shity

the main reason feild ild plays so crappy is that it dont have a powerplant and that the powerplant isnt in an easy place to hit

only thing that should be changed is the cool down on the ob back to what it used to be back in beta 2? /cnc ren

[HaTe]

Just for the record, the obelisk and AGT worked differently depending on which scripts version the server was running in Renegade. The auto-charge was a big controversy for a while, so they eventually fixed it (since it was a glitch).

I'm not entirely sure if ren x works this way, but the obelisk and AGT in Renegade prioritized infantry first. If there was a tank and an infantry in view, the agt cannon would shoot the infantry first, and the same goes for the obelisk (i believe turrets and guard towers too).

I'm sure Stealtheye would be able to go deep into detail about this sort of thing if he still visits the forums. He knows renegade in and out