Balance Changes

[HaTe]

Please list, in order, the (nerf) balance changes that you think are the most important right now (buffs will be put in parentheses). By balance, I'm referring to units being overpowered or underpowered. I'm doing this to make it easier for the developer team to be able to see what units the people on the forums think need to be adjusted the most. We need to take all opinions into consideration.

Please try to limit or not discuss here (you can post your opinion and read others, but please do not directly respond to anyone's individual opinion posted). This is literally meant for developer balancing purposes, and not for discussion. We can discuss HOW each nerf/buff should take place AFTER the order of importance is established. If you have any additional, feel free to add it in (do not go over 10, as I plan to add up the points using the 10). Don't use decimals or give any 2 the same number either please.

Running tally: (will be adjusted as I read each new post)

Airdrop - 79

Shotgun*- 79

Officer - 75

Ref dead credits - 45

Silo - 42

Sidearms - 41

Repair/Damage Credits - 41

Rocket soldier - 34

Stealth tank (buff) - 34

Gunner (buff)** - 25

Infantry Splash damage*** - 23

Flechette - 22

Mcfarland - 22

Laser rifle (nerf/buff) - 20

Auto rifle (buff) - 16

Sniper rifle - 15

Lock-on - 15

LCG (nerf/buff) - 15

Grenadier - 13

Tiberium weapons - 10

EMP (nerf/buff) - 9

PIC/Railgun (buff) - 8

Orca/Apache - 6

Marksman - 6

APC - 6

Flamethrower (buff) - 6

MRLS - 5

Chem trooper - 4

SBH ADS (buff) - 3

Pistol - 3

Bar/HoN (buff) - 2

Player controlled turrets - 2

Ramjet (buff) - 1

Tac Rifle (buff) - 1

*Different parts nerfed and buffed. Spread decreased (buff), damage decreased (nerf), and range decreased (nerf) are the overall thoughts on the shotgun.

**Gunner needs nerf vs infantry and buff vs vehicles and buildings is the overall consensus.

***Do damage to themselves, as well as nerf the damage to enemies.

(items listed with nerf/buff have differing opinions on the matter),

Ranking values added per request:

#1 = 10 points

#2 = 9 points

#3 = 8 points

#4 = 7 points

#5 = 6 points

#6 = 5 points

#7 = 4 points

#8 = 3 points

#9 = 2 points

#10 = 1 point.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Guest

[HaTe]

For example, here is my list:

1. Airdrop nerf

2. Mcfarland nerf

3. Officer nerf

4. Shotgun nerf

5. Flechette gun nerf

6. Laser rifle nerf

7. Lock-on nerf

8. Pistol nerf

9. Rocket solder nerf

10. LCG nerf

[RoundShades]

1) Officer Nerf (total damage and damage-rate against infantry over range, such that it keeps damage but hits less bullets the farther away infantry are and doesn't have enough damage per clip to kill a whole arty)

2) Silo Nerf (1 credit instead of 2)

3) Repair/Damage Credit Nerf (30% decrease sounds like a good start, especially for building damage/repair. Infantry damage/repair actually should be increased a bit)

4) Shotgun Nerf (stronger than McFarland's, actually the shotgun should be more like McFarlands as far as spread and range or possibly even less range)

5) Sidearm Nerf (pretty good sidearms per cost, actual classes with that cost aren't as good)

6) Stealth Tank Buff (first, adjust it's missiles to fire really close to the same angle instead of so spread in direction, then buff the damage 10% if nothing else than to just heavy armor)

7) Airdrop Nerf (either higher cost and/or cooldown, or as suggested by XDErrorXD, accumulatively add the cost of last vehicle, to next vehicle, and that vehicle's total to the next vehicle, or some other slowly increasing cost mechanism)

8) Grenadier Nerf (slight damage decrease, perhaps less ammo per clip)

9) Bar/HoN Buff (Apply whatever airdrop change to Bar/HoN, infantry should be as accessible, else Nod is in a worse spot. Note, it should still be costlier if so, or accumulatively costlier over time)

10) Ramjet Buff (against light armor, it received too many nerfs at once last patch, it is still sort of good against light armor and anti air but it could be better, making it a "good counter" without making it a "hard counter")

Edited May 4, 2015 by Guest

[HaTe]

Just for the record for future posting lists, I didn't put things in my original list that were already stated by a developer to change (silo, points adjustments). If you want to though, I'm not going to stop you, and I'll include it in the running rank.

The mines one you listed isn't really a balance change, but more of a suggestion to the game. If you could switch that one out, I'll add it, but I'm not not going to put that into the list for now.

[yosh56]

1- Officer nerf (kill hit-scan maybe)

2- Rocket launcher nerf (got buffed way too many times in testing)

3. PIC/Railgun range buff

4. Autorifle head-shot buff/body-shot debuff

5. Nerf splash damage in general from infantry units (Farland/Gunner/Grenadier)

6. Gunner buff vs. buildings/vehicles to go with #5 and make him actually more viable than rocket soldiers.

[Ap2000]

1. Remove airdrops.

2. Ref not giving any credits when destroyed.

3. Officer nerf in terms of long range.

4. RS nerf/Gunner buff - These are intertwined for me. RS should be good for fighting vehicles, while Gunner should be better for damaging buildings.

5. (or 6.) Building damage/repair credits to be less.

There are some other things that sound good or at least interesting (silo adjustment, weaker pistol, railgun range increase), but I don't really have strong enough of an opinion on to put them in an ordered list.

[boxes]

Nerfs:

1. Building Damage/Repair credit income

2. Silo Income

3. Sidearms (Vet system, or increase price)

4. Chaingun (Reduce Mag size and/or increase spread, decrease range)

5. Orca Apache (HP decrease, Machine gun building damage decrease)

6. Shotgun (Increase spread)

7. Sniper Rifles Hip-Fire headshot damage multiplier (x2)

8. Grenadier Building Damage

9. EMP more noticeable

10. Airdrops (Vet system)

Buffs:

1. Stealth Tank (Increase damage and/or Increase Range in exchange for longer time to be cloaked again after firing)

2. Volt Auto Rifle RoF (beta 3)

3. Destroyed PP slows AGT/OB fire rate instead of stopping it (-500%)

4. Bar/HoN destroyed price decrease (+50%)

5. Gunner Building Damage increase, enough so it kills faster than rocket soldier

6. Tactical Rifle bullet speed increase

7. LCG spread decrease

8. Arty projectile speed increase (beta 3)

9. Automatic Rifle bullet speed increase

10. AT mine damage increase

[HaTe]

yosh, are you referring to the rocket soldier or the gunner's rocket launcher? I'll put it as the rocket soldier for now until you clarify.

campin, for now I'm just putting your nerfs in the list, as that technically is 20 instead of 10.

UPDATED FIRST POST RUNNING TALLY

Some of you are posting some broad things that I have to categorize as its own thing, instead of splitting it up into specific things and adding onto the points already there for those. If you want to adjust that, post specifying that and I will edit it.

[RypeL]

yeah this helps. keep it going guys.

[yosh56]

@Hate: Rocket Soldier of course. That thing slowly became a homing $225 Personal Ion Cannon.

[GatsuFox]

The high level players don't talk in these balance thread enough. Here's my input:

1. MRLS reload time is too fast. The rocket speed buff has turned this 450 once piece of shit into a killing machine. If it had maybe 10% longer reload time it would give a proper peeking window against it.

2. Stealth Tank still sucks. Why not change its rockets to be like the original Renegade, straight + spiral? Right now even a basic infantry is a hard counter to the stank.

3. 500 sniper head shot damage is too high. Instead of a 5x multiplier (500 dmg) it should be 2.5x (250 damage). Only the 1k classes should be able to insta kill advanced engineers and high advanced classes.

4. The shotgun needs a buff and a nerf. Right now shooting the shotgun is just a dice roll. It's not even fun. You either deal 10 damage or 350 damage at point blank range. Makes no sense at all. The shotgun needs its spread WAY DECREASED and it's damage nerfed (the spread decrease will increase the effective range too).

5. The marksman deals too much damage. He's by far the best starting class right now. 20% damage nerf should be fine.

6. The laser chain gunner is slightly too powerful for his price. He's nearly matches mobius/mendoza in effectiveness. Slight nerf needed but nothing too much.

7. The silo is too powerful. The credits per second is just far too high and the team who controls it snowballs like crazy. The Refinery change is perfect (walls feels great right now) but any map with the silo is just dreadful because the team without the silo can never win the economy game. Infact this is why Airdrops aren't even working as intended because of the money flow the silo gives. Every body is ignoring the silo issue except the game's top players.

People attack the direct problem but never the root of issues.

[TheOlsenTwins]

Maybe it would be good to factor the number of silos on the map into the ref credit rate...

[HaTe]

Updated running tally.

@olsen; perhaps create a list? Trying to limit discussion in this specific topic.

[Electrifyer809]

I hate the airdrops honestly. It's kinda useless to blow up the building now, because it usually ends up as the team without the wep/strip camping with JUST barely enough vehicles to drag the match out. What's the point in having one if you can get vehicles delivered anyways, even at the extra cost? When it's a camp match like that, most people just want it to end.

[HaTe]

I hate the airdrops honestly. It's kinda useless to blow up the building now, because it usually ends up as the team without the wep/strip camping with JUST barely enough vehicles to drag the match out. What's the point in having one if you can get vehicles delivered anyways, even at the extra cost? When it's a camp match like that, most people just want it to end.

If you make a list, I can add your points into the running tally and you could add some significant points to the airdrop (#1 = 10 points, #2 = 9 points, #3 = 8 points, etc.). The point of this topic is to prioritize the importance of each balance tweak overall after tallying each individual's list of importance. Without making a balance tweak ranking list, I can't add points to any of the specific items.

[[TmX]Super-Kh]

the mcfarland's right click shot should be slowed down to 2 seconds at least,because it is really damaging,splashy and fast,one or two of these advantages should be taken away

also,the artillery should get at least 5% more reload time,because it is really annoying that a 450$ veh can kill a 800$ or even a 1500$ tank that fast!

[HaTe]

Guys, please make a ranking list.

The objective of this thread is to rank the importance (see running tally in first post) of what the group thinks needs to be balanced.

Solutions to these problems can be discussed AFTER the importance ranking is established.

[Axesor]

Rocket Soldier and Marksman are good as they are now. I didnt played old Renegade Multiplayer much so I see it differently... :

Definitely Nerf:

1.Officer-100 ammo in magazine. Delay before it starts shooting, like 0.3s-0.5sec.

Other balances:

-Money inc-Engineer, tech/hotwire-more points for healing units and repairing vehicles. Less money for repairing buildings. Silo- gives less money.

-Infinity ammo for all infantry. Solves problems with sidearms, heavy pistol, and its very annying in such a game like this when you have no ammo.

2.Soldier-assault rifle-increase bullet speed. A lot! or even instant impact.

3.Shotgunner-less spread while not aiming

4.Grenadier- 4 grenades per magazine. Increase explosion radius (x1.5), decrease damage to the buildings.

5.Flame Soldier-Projectile spreads/increases size while traveling just like real flamethrower, slightly increase projectile speed.

6.McFarland-delay between shots of the secondary fire 1.5-2sec. McFarland and shotgunner are 2 very different characters with different roles and we should compare em.

7.Chem trooper-Projectile spreads/increases size while traveling or increase projectile size, projectile affected by gravity

8.SBH-do it more clearly in marksman mode. Actualy its pain in eyes.. cant see anything and its very hard to aim in marksman mode.

9.Gunner-more damage to the buildings, slightly increase explosion radius, slightly decrease explosion damage to the infantry

10.Patch-increase projectile speed

11.Sydney, Raveshaw-increase projectile size, return b3 aiming circle

12.Mobidus, Mendoza-increase projectile size.

My ratings....

1)Airdrop nerf

2)Mcfarland nerf

3)Officer nerf

Shotgun nerf-disagree with nerfing

Flechette gun nerf-disagree with nerfing

Lock-on nerf-disagree with nerfing

Rocket soldier nerf-disagree with nerfing

LCG nerf-disagree with nerfing

Laser rifle nerf-disagree with nerfing

Pistol nerf-disagree with nerfing

[HaTe]

updated the running tally with the first 10 you listed.

[DoctorB0NG]

1) airdrops (nerf)

2) rocket soldier damage to vehicles (nerf)

3) rate of silo credits (nerf)

4) flechette rifle (nerf)

5) shotty (needs rebalance, not just nerf)

6) McFart (nerf)

7) Officer (nerf)

8) Stank (buff)

9) Remove sidearm from SBH and tech/hotty (nerf)

10) More credits/points for repairing tanks and killing infantry

[HaTe]

Updated. Thank you for a list.

[Bananas]

***CAN WE PLEASE GET A BALANCE SECTION FOR THE FORUMS?***

The way you did this post is very confusing. You didn't really make it very clear that the order of the list would be worth different amounts of points. Also you are messing up the results when you choose to only put in people's first 10 if they did more or split into buffs/nerfs(because it doesn't represent what they thought was most important). I would say your list on the original post doesn't accurately represent what people think is most important.

I'll leave out what I think should actually be changed specific balance change suggestions since you wanted that. <---REWORDED AND EDITED so that everyone Bojack doesn't think I'm a conspiracy nut. Here's my list:

1) Tiberium weapons nerf

2) Officer nerf

3) Shotgun nerf

4) Rocket soldier nerf

5) APC nerf

6) Stank buff

7) EMP buff/changes/rework (emps make no sense right now)

8) SBH buff/changes/rework (laser rifle sucks, side arms are too good on sbh)

9) Player controlled turret nerf/removal (the ones on whiteout)

10) Gunner nerf/buff/rework (too strong against infantry, doesn't fill the role of building/vehicle defense well enough)

Edited April 29, 2015 by Guest

[HaTe]

The way you did this post is very confusing. You didn't really make it very clear that the order of the list would be worth different amounts of points.

There's no other way to do a ranking tally, so I kind of just assumed people would understand that.

Also you are messing up the results when you choose to only put in people's first 10 if they did more.

It's clearly stated as a guideline (even in color and bold) to only do 10. Any more are just neglected in the ranking tally. The way I do it is as follows:

#1 = 10 points

#2 = 9 points

#3 = 8 points

#4 = 7 points

#5 = 6 points

#6 = 5 points

#7 = 4 points

#8 = 3 points

#9 = 2 points

#10 = 1 point.

That's why going over 10 doesn't give any points...a set maximum needs to be established...

I would say your list on the original post doesn't accurately represent what people think is most important.

I've taken statistics as well as logistical focused courses, and this is literally the only accurate way to account for everything whilst still giving each individual equal say.

I'll leave out what I think should actually be changed since you wanted that.

What...?

I really didn't want to get in a discussion here, so perhaps you could PM me if you really think I have some sort of ulterior motive here. I'm not sure what gave you that impression, but I guess being skeptical isn't always a bad thing...?

[Bananas]

I really didn't want to get in a discussion here, so perhaps you could PM me if you really think I have some sort of ulterior motive here. I'm not sure what gave you that impression, but I guess being skeptical isn't always a bad thing...?

Wut.

There's no other way to do a ranking tally, so I kind of just assumed people would understand that.

Not everyone knows this lol. You could easily get feedback using a different method...

It's clearly stated as a guideline (even in color and bold) to only do 10. Any more are just neglected in the ranking tally. The way I do it is as follows:

#1 = 10 points

#2 = 9 points

#3 = 8 points

#4 = 7 points

#5 = 6 points

#6 = 5 points

#7 = 4 points

#8 = 3 points

#9 = 2 points

#10 = 1 point.

Then put this in the original post so that everyone knows how it works exactly...

Also choosing only someones 10 nerfs when they did 20 combined nerfs/buffs isn't accurately representing what people give in feedback. And yes, I understand the point of having a list of only 10.

Anyways updated both of my posts just for you.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Guest

[HaTe]

I would say your list on the original post doesn't accurately represent what people think is most important.

I'll leave out what I think should actually be changed since you wanted that.

Anyway, would you like your rankings added to the list, then?

[RoundShades]

I was going to do the same thing the week after Beta 4 although I feel now is more appropriate. I actually typed it but the forum ate my post. I also have a limit of 6 suggestions.

Anyway, this is basic TF2 keep-change style of balance poll. This works in practice and is also pretty fun. I appreciate this being made and I at least suspect Rypel is interested if not appreciative in it.

[HaTe]

Nice edit bananas.

I've updated the running tally.

For #8, I put it as the laser rifle. Would you like a separate category for the SBH (and what specifically about it?), or is that what you were going for? Edit: just realized you said buff. Could you specify what about the SBH you'd like buffed?

[Gaysha]

#1 Airdrop -nerf

#2 Ref dead credits -nerf

#3 Silo -nerf

#4 Remove sidearm from SBH and tech/hotty -nerf

#5 Shotty -nerf/buff (Im with gatsu on this one: "The shotgun needs its spread WAY DECREASED and it's damage nerfed")

#6 SBH laser rifle -buff (pistol is better against infantry)

#7 Inf splash damage (Farland/Gunner/Grenadier) -nerf

#8 Stank -buff

#9 Flechette -nerf

#10 Gunner vs buildings/vehicles -buff

[HaTe]

Updated running tally

[Calvin]

#1 Airdrop -nerf

#2 Ref dead credits -nerf

#3 Silo -nerf

#4 Remove sidearm from SBH and tech/hotty -nerf

#5 Shotty -nerf/buff (Im with gatsu on this one: "The shotgun needs its spread WAY DECREASED and it's damage nerfed")

#6 SBH laser rifle -buff (pistol is better against infantry)

#7 Inf splash damage (Farland/Gunner/Grenadier) -nerf

#8 Stank -buff

#9 Flechette -nerf

#10 Gunner vs buildings/vehicles -buff

This^.

[OTT]

1-Remove sidearms from hotwire/tech/sbh (maybe only keep the heavy pistol .. if that is possible)

2-Infantry splash damage nerf (Mcfarland and Grenadier)

3-Shotgun nerf and less spread

4-Gunner nerf vs infantry and buff vs buildings/vehicles

5-Airdrop nerf

6-Flechstte nerf (even if slightly)

7-Silo nerf

8-500 sniper headshot damage nerf (make it 300, so 1000 infantry won't die from one hit)

9-sbh lazer rifle buff

10-stank buff

[HaTe]

Updated running tally (included gaysha's twice, as dien00b felt the exact same).

Keep 'em coming guys. Shotgun has just surpassed the officer (chaingun) as the most prevalent requested balance change.

[RoundShades]

My list, I no longer wish to specify Flichette anymore, and now wish to vote generally for "Sidearms" instead. Please change it, thank you.

[HaTe]

My list, I no longer wish to specify Flichette anymore, and now wish to vote generally for "Sidearms" instead. Please change it, thank you.

Subtracted 6 from the flechette and added 6 to the sidearms.

[salarite]

1. Ref dead credits

2. Repair/Damage Credits

3. Airdrop

4. Shotgun (nerf)

5. LCG (nerf)

6. Stealth tank (buff)

7. Officer (nerf)

8. Mcfarland (slight nerf)

9. EMP (buff - reduce detonation time)

10. Sidearms

And also (11-15.):

MRLS (slight buff)

Flamethrower (buff)

Orca/Apache (nerf)

Tac Rifle (slight buff)

PIC/Railgun (slight buff)

[HaTe]

Updated with your first 10.

[RoundShades]

Did... Did I put MRLS Lockon as a request? It got translated to MRLS I think, when really it was about the lockons themselves. It is so hard to aquire, yet you need sniper accuracy hovering over the target to retain a lock on, the second you flinch from it, it loses lock.

Anyway, since that didn't come out right, I change it to stank buff. That one won't get lost in translation.

[HaTe]

Alright, subtracted 5 from MRLS and added 5 to Stank buff. Hope that's right now.

[Radeon3]

1. Airdrop - so many opinions, probably serverside is the most acceptable

2. Dead ref - no creds

3. Repair/Damage creds - building rep 66%->50%, more for repping inf and tanks

4. Infantry splash damage - including self damage

5. Lock on - vehicles which are primarily rely on it should have better lock on and tolerance to lose it (stank, mrls, but not mammy)

6. Lolficier - nerf, spread increase or RoF decrease

7. Shotty - more accuracy and range j/k

8. LCG - buff, no recoil (it's still light)

9. Gunner - buff

10. EMP - lower cook time, smoke? (it's still electromagnetic emission)

This topic should be sticky.

[HaTe]

Updated. Mods don't currently have access to sticky/pin, otherwise I probably would.

It should be noted that some of these balance issues have already been discussed in private between the CD's, and a solution has been established. We will notify you of those at some point in the near future.