!IMPORTANT! - Renegade X: Regarding base defences & Sneaking

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Hey fellow Renegaders,

So lately there's been quite a discussion about several aspects with the game, some of them regarding Base defences, and how to sneak past them.

The developers have taken some effort in trying to revive infantry combat, but sadly are completely missing the point that matters (IMO). Seeing these applied changes go through to the open beta would make me very sad, because i simply know it will have a negative impact on the game.

To avoid a HUGE wall of text and pictures, i've decided to make a video on it. It may be 12 minutes long, but please bear with me because this is so important to see what's wrong with Renegade X. Discussions that have been going around are well meant, but will not help infantry as a building destroyer.

Take note: This video does show some beta 4 footage, but any bugs shown are NOT from the Closed beta 4. These bugs have been ingame even before the game's release in 26th of february 2014. The developers and testers are working really hard to make this release happen as quickly as possible - This video was the first one i ever made, and took me 4 days to make. I spent 6 hours on editing and 4-5 hours on gathering footage. The video itself is private, so only people reading this forum can see it.

As many footage was shown with free characters, showing this is possible with just only 200 health. I could have made this easier for myself by using a technician or hotwire, but i want to show this can be done without any money. I will not explain in detail how these sneaking methods should be done, but can be done by yourself if you pay some good attention.

[yosh56]

Good stuff, though I REALLY hope you mentioned that bug with the Obelisk doing ridiculous amounts of damage to a dev.

I noticed a lot of the sneaking paths that worked in Ren died off in X as well, especially those in Field. From what I've been able to gather from the changes they say they're making to it, I have to agree wholeheartedly that it'll only make Field more of a stalemate with more mines blocking tunnels, and more people camping.

Also, Nod can't harv-walk on Field (or they couldn't last 3-4 times I tried to in beta 1-2), the AGT missile just shoots over the harvester no matter how close you hug it.

On the note of tall things, I became aware of The Obelisk's blind-spot change recently. I was a Gunner, they had the Obelisk mined heavily to the point where the mines were even outside, so I backed up all of 10ft and still got shot by the damn thing. Seriously, the minimum range is more-or-less non-existent.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Good stuff, though I REALLY hope you mentioned that bug with the Obelisk doing ridiculous amounts of damage to a dev.

I noticed a lot of the sneaking paths that worked in Ren died off in X as well, especially those in Field. From what I've been able to gather from the changes they say they're making to it, I have to agree wholeheartedly that it'll only make Field more of a stalemate with more mines blocking tunnels, and more people camping.

Also, Nod can't harv-walk on Field (or they couldn't last 3-4 times I tried to in beta 1-2), the AGT missile just shoots over the harvester no matter how close you hug it.

On the note of tall things, I became aware of The Obelisk's blind-spot change recently. I was a Gunner, they had the Obelisk mined heavily to the point where the mines were even outside, so I backed up all of 10ft and still got shot by the damn thing. Seriously, the minimum range is more-or-less non-existent.

thanks for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

after being ignored a couple of times, i just wanted to show pople what's actually wrong with sneaking in this game and open their eyes on it. Intentional or not, the map design in the original game was laid out perfectly, and there are many methods i did not even show in this video. Mesa II has one 'perfectly laid out path' aswell to the airstrip, in which the angle of approch makes a huge diffrence. The height of a rock, entrance, position of a building, this kind of stuff gets missed very easily, but does make a big diffrence if you litteraly have to play with a margin of millimeters.

[SFJake]

Isn't beta 4 kind of giving us more "general" ways to sneak in by the use of smoke grenades?

In a way, you can say that despite some of the map design, we'll still be able to sneak in. Of course, its not a direct fix to anything you say, and its probably much easier, but at least it will allow people to sneak in in a variety of ways.

I love your video, however, and I hope the developer take notices of it.

There's a LOT of things that can be done to help sneaking, it seems.

The obelisk not-discharging when it partially sees something should never happen. I really hope they tweak that, as well as increase the obelisk's blind spot.

I'm a bit confused about the difference in AGT. In the first example on Field you just sneak with the help of the harvester. So the harvester doesn't use the same route in RenX? I know in RenX the AGT deals its damage differently, but is it worse for sneaking?

Other than that, the main issue is always map design. Like you say, the smallest of little quirks in a map can be used to help sneaking and that is exactly what leads to incredibly sneaking scenarios.

I am NOT good at sneaking in Renegade, it was always one of my worse talent. However, I fully support trying to revive this branch of the game and you seemed to know sneaking in the original well enough to represent it. (a lot more than me )

While I doubt we're going to see the maps adjusted for sneaking, some obelisk and AGT tweaks, as well as the AGT missile tracking behind the harvester, and any other small quirks you guys find, would go a long way to help sneaking.

I think these issues are important ones and I support this topic. Even with smoke grenades, being able to fool base defenses without them was always an important part of Renegade.

[RypeL]

Nice effort. Didnt fully disect the vid yet but i´ll promise you that your dedication to make this video will be worth it and will lead to changes that will hopefully still make it into B4.

Of course we are aware of some of the issues but maybe not all and also forgot about some of them. But like for example i could make a long text trying to explain what the problem and the challenge is with trying to make the obelisk laser tip behave like in ren. But ill spare you and instead hope to find the time to find solutions for the remaining problems till B4 comes out.

[Handepsilon]

Oh, I wanna ask. Have you fixed the trick that makes you able to avoid Obi(and generally every base defense) fire by switching to second seat?

[Ryz]

You put a lot off effort In that video error, good job!

[RoundShades]

Nice effort. Didnt fully disect the vid yet but i´ll promise you that your dedication to make this video will be worth it and will lead to changes that will hopefully still make it into B4.

Of course we are aware of some of the issues but maybe not all and also forgot about some of them. But like for example i could make a long text trying to explain what the problem and the challenge is with trying to make the obelisk laser tip behave like in ren. But ill spare you and instead hope to find the time to find solutions for the remaining problems till B4 comes out.

The way the Oblesk is designed, wouldn't changing the side the door is on compared to the tip work? Basically, the tip curves no? If it curved torwards the opposite side of the Obby that the door is on, the middle part would block at least all of 15 meters of blind spot in front of the door.

Alas, the lack of blind spot will end up on the other side, meaning if you are under the side without the door, it can smite you if you "step back a whole 10 feet". EDIT: The structure already curves that way, had to rewatch. It just shoots through the structure. Is there no way to make the structure's mesh and model obstruct base defense vision? If it blocks it's entire view if you do it, is there no mesh and model you can place inside the tower arm floating in such a place to obstruct it's aim straight down that isn't part of the tower? That becomes kind of a hacked in fix, but a fix is a fix. Just stick a disk or barrel or something, below the oblesk, to block it's vision of it's own door. Nobody can see it anyway, it will be inside of the entire oblesk arm, concealed from player vision.

I liked some of the things the video pointed out. However, I liked the skill cap of infiltration using terrain from Renegade, but I can't bring myself to fully expect everyone to be able to accomplish such a difficult game mechanic. The obby has killed me over half the time I held beacon in hand alongside the nod ref in Classic Renegade, a lot of time because lag would drag me back out into the open, but a lot of time just because I didn't perfect it.

At least smoke is more "consistent". It doesn't function with frame-perfect timing and unreliable high risk to your valuable investment. It also is balanced by being visible to enemies, it screams "search here or ELSE".

I once thought the answer was much more realistic infiltration entrances, like underground tunnels with a short sprint to a building doorway (lakeside never gets used but if you did it was reliable unlike rock-cover in Mesa-II. Now, I think more realistically useable cover for infiltration is an answer, but smoke is a much more consistent answer. Harvester walking, as said above, is even less consistent in this game, the AGT lets you do it a small fraction of the time which should maybe even be tweaked somehow, I wouldn't know how, perhaps scripting a blindspot where the AGT won't fire at enemy infantry so close to friendly vehicles or possibly just the harvester, or perhaps adjusting height of AGT and Harvy by how close the Harv path is to the AGT.

I appreciate you taking notice of this Rypel btw.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Answering a few questions:

@SFJake... The AGT missile deals the same amount of damage, but the machine guns now deal a consistent 10 damage.

If you give me a second to calculate the old AGT's machinegun damage... internet fast-forward ftw!

it deals 16 damage per shot, 8 shots per second for every machinegun, then reloads for a second (these are estimates, but i've tested how fast they shot with an APC ^^). IF everything would be a hit and not a head/neckshot, it would deal roughly 64 damage per second for every machinegun ( 16 × 8 / 2 ), most likely 2 or 3 guns will shoot you, which means 128 - 192 damage per second is dealt, which is massive! However, at long ranges (http://imgur.com/l4D0vFc), expect like 80% to miss, which leads to 26 - 39 damage per shot... which suddendly is a lot less impressive (if you are able to block the AGT's missiles, which deal ~170 damage in both games)

Renegade X's AGT deals a consistent 10 damage per shot per machinegun and is very accurate, about 4 shots per second ---> 80-120 damage per second, but a lot more will hit at the same distance. It also is more fearsome because it's missile is a lot faster, and therefore a lot harder to avoid.

TL;DR: old AGT: Higher potential damage output, and will put it to very good use at close ranges. It's going to barely scratch you at long-range though.

new AGT: The faster missile is going to be much more fearsome, it's machineguns are about as hard to combat on every range, making it more favourable at (very) close quarters.

@BroTranquility: (Smoke) grenades replace timed C4, but replace Promixity C4 at the Technician and Hotwire... yeah that one's going to bring some issues. Although, you're always going to have to pick between EMP grenades and Smoke grenades, but this doesn't really change Hotwires and Technicians. This could suggest this doesn't make SBH even more OP though

However... working in groups does make grenades like these OP. I think we need to think smoke grenades through more before adding them to the game, as using them in groups of only 2 or more is going to make a massive impact in the game. Putting the building walls back could work, and maybe allowing Turrets and Guard towers to shoot through them anyhow. this would require GDI to get Guard towers in their bases, however. Doing this could make Guard Towers and Turrets more viable targets and more awarding to destroy, because you give them another use in the game. Anyone else here has suggestions?

EDIT: Oh yeah, answering another question: A lot of these methods are a lot more easy to pull off with a partner, if you just heal each other while getting shot (only applies for AGT). This allows for a more straightforward strategy which is faster and allows you to survive attacks from the AGT longer. Don't forget to mention it promotes teamwork aswell! I used to simply PM people in my team i knew to help before i knew how to do them alone.

Lag... sadly, it's an issue. But good netcoding wasn't the thing what made C&C Renegade great...

I've never seen myself rubberband back a meter in Renegade X, in fact, my corpse never rubberbanded in Renegade X before. So i guessed that's fixed!

[RoundShades]

@BroTranquility: (Smoke) grenades replace timed C4, but replace Promixity C4 at the Technician and Hotwire... yeah that one's going to bring some issues. Although, you're always going to have to pick between EMP grenades and Smoke grenades, but this doesn't really change Hotwires and Technicians. This could suggest this doesn't make SBH even more OP though

However... working in groups does make grenades like these OP. I think we need to think smoke grenades through more before adding them to the game, as using them in groups of only 2 or more is going to make a massive impact in the game. Putting the building walls back could work, and maybe allowing Turrets and Guard towers to shoot through them anyhow. this would require GDI to get Guard towers in their bases, however. Doing this could make Guard Towers and Turrets more viable targets and more awarding to destroy, because you give them another use in the game. Anyone else here has suggestions?

My comment to your comment: I think cover being less finnicky is a possible solution. Honestly, it would go well WITH keeping smoke nades. However, smoke nades are still countered by the APC/MRLS camping the tunnel entrance. It is a "defense" strategy, and I think "guard patrol" should be a position in RenX. Patrolling a base was something not always needed in old Ren just as much as infantry only had select roles while in RenX infantry is just as fearsome as tanks in all the places tanks aren't at. Basically, I believe RenX benefits from having 2 fields of combat, infantry and tanks, instead of just tanks and infantry affect the tanks, which is what RenX mostly does and what old Ren did. Now, infiltration kills on structures, in competent games, happened 1 out of every 20 games. I would play 20 games of Renegade just hoping to achieve or witness it, someone c4ing the Nod PP in Under or something 1337. The only problem is, it wasn't practical and was finnicky. It only happened, cuz nobody guarded, cuz most attempts were failures where the obby shot you for some subtle mistake. You couldn't get reliably any farther than the rock beside of the PP.

So, beside adding more and/or reliable cover from base defenses from within an enemy base, I think smoke should stay, because the hotwire replacing proxy c4 is possibly something else entirely that should be rebalanced. I think the timed c4 slot should be what any purchased item goes in and should always be 1 timed c4 or a grenade and that hotwires should lose proxy and double-c4 by spawn (perhaps reduce unit cost to 300 or 250). Their role as infiltrator basically gives them 2-3 most important roles in the game, seeing them used 80% of the time as anyone's choice of infantry, whether it's defend base, repair tank siege, or infiltrate. I think ALL that should be broken down.

So, get this. This is my suggestion for that:

-Hotwires and all classes get 1 primary, 1 secondary, and 1 equipment. Engineers and hotwires get a 4th slot that has 2 remotes that is unique to them, and even this is up to grabs for "making remotes equipment".

-Only 1 secondary and only 1 choice of equipment, cannot carry any multiple equipment, must choose the 1 they want when they spawn.

-Equipment can start for free as 1 Timed c4 or some frag nades.

-Purchaseable equipment includes: (possibly 3 remote c4 for 300), 2 timed c4 for 400, proxy c4 for 250, AT mines for 400, Emp Nade for 500, Smoke Nade for 500, Airstrike for 800, and Superweapon Beacon for 1000.

This way, it divides up the equipment independent of the class. More unused classes that are actually decent if only they were dangerous become used as possible infiltrators depending on the player's choice of flavor. No class has an inherent advantage. 2 man strategies become more powerful, but so does any single player's choice of their 1 equipment because of mines, smoke to infiltrate and shoot mct repairmen, airstrikes. 2 man strategies seem more "normal" for this game than mass strategies that are too difficult to setup but isn't as brain-dead to do as soloing like some generic military shooter. It also rebalances overused hotwire/tech and their overpoweredness with smoke.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

So, get this. This is my suggestion for that:

-Hotwires and all classes get 1 primary, 1 secondary, and 1 equipment. Engineers and hotwires get a 4th slot that has 2 remotes that is unique to them, and even this is up to grabs for "making remotes equipment".

-Only 1 secondary and only 1 choice of equipment, cannot carry any multiple equipment, must choose the 1 they want when they spawn.

-Equipment can start for free as 1 Timed c4 or some frag nades.

-Purchaseable equipment includes: (possibly 3 remote c4 for 300), 2 timed c4 for 400, proxy c4 for 250, AT mines for 400, Emp Nade for 500, Smoke Nade for 500, Airstrike for 800, and Superweapon Beacon for 1000.

This way, it divides up the equipment independent of the class. More unused classes that are actually decent if only they were dangerous become used as possible infiltrators depending on the player's choice of flavor. No class has an inherent advantage. 2 man strategies become more powerful, but so does any single player's choice of their 1 equipment because of mines, smoke to infiltrate and shoot mct repairmen, airstrikes. 2 man strategies seem more "normal" for this game than mass strategies that are too difficult to setup but isn't as brain-dead to do as soloing like some generic military shooter. It also rebalances overused hotwire/tech and their overpoweredness with smoke.

Yeah, i could see this happening. Although the part containing 'No class has an inherent advantage' seems a bit scary to me. You see, as i do agree some tasks should be put into more units, making most tasks available to most teams sounds kind of scary to me. I would like to know what i'm up against if i see a certain character, so this is why i'd like to not completely add this, but more like something that looks like a skill tree for each tier, but without the grinding to gain access to every weapon.

If we were to take Tier 1 characters as a whole, their weapons are not amazingly heavy nor specialised. These should gain access to every 'basic' purchase ((smoke) grenades, 1-2 timed/remote c4 etc.).

Tier 2 characters are generally good for quite specific tasks. This is why these should allow access to more specialised tools, but not as much the basic ones (EMP grenades but not smoke grenades)

Tier 3 characters are good commando units, or excel more at everything then tier 1 units. These could be given more commando-ish tools (Carbines but not heavy pistols).

I'm not saying these would be good changes specifically, but there could be something set up that looks like it. Would these changes seem fair? What do you think?

[sterps]

This would explain when tank rushing the obelisk, you still get shot by it right next to it. Which is annoying when rushing.