End is pretty boring and other stuff

[DoFlof]

So building is lost and there is nothing much team can do...beside waiting the end.

Would in future option surender for one team be in game? What is the point to slap dead donky...he is not gona get up.

Next one is about heavly unbalanced teams...last few games i played were boring...we destroyed enemy in few min -(vice/versa). And this happend more then 50% of all games i played. Mybe adding some rankings to players so game can auto balance teams on beginning of the match. It is a chore to wait realy good balanced match.

[yosh56]

Needed a team-only vote to surrender since the beginning. Some teams are basically hopeless after they lose a building.

Eh, rank-based auto-balance is iffy. I've seen more than enough balanced games, team-wise. Stacking happens, but I rarely see it. Of course when it happens Im usually one of the culprits >_>. I don't feel like changing channels on TS =p

[RoundShades]

Structure loss being less devastating would help imo.

Like if structure loss caused a price spike instead of removal of the units. Then it would just suffocate a team instead of stopping them in their tracks. And careful combat on the team's part will keep them viable against an enemy. Instead of an instant collapse.

[SFJake]

I'd prefer ways to gain back a building but I think we talked about this already.

My mindset is:

-If its a timed game, resisting until the last minute against overwhelming forces is one of the point of the game.

-If its a marathon game, they would be more fun with long-term comeback possibilities (such as the idea of restoring 1 building after X game-time, so the survival of the base means buildings can start coming back, or replace X game-time with a separate credit system people gain (with or without refinery they'd always get some) and they spend to rebuild buildings.

This is my personal opinion on that. I don't like the idea of being able to still buy everything at a bigger price, except the very basic stuff (hum-vee).

Another random idea is to put a crate spawn point in every destroyed building (next to the MCT), allowing the losing team more opportunities to get something.

I don't know, I'd play so many different marathon ideas.

[epicelite]

I'd prefer ways to gain back a building but I think we talked about this already.

My mindset is:

-If its a timed game, resisting until the last minute against overwhelming forces is one of the point of the game.

-If its a marathon game, they would be more fun with long-term comeback possibilities (such as the idea of restoring 1 building after X game-time, so the survival of the base means buildings can start coming back, or replace X game-time with a separate credit system people gain (with or without refinery they'd always get some) and they spend to rebuild buildings.

This is my personal opinion on that. I don't like the idea of being able to still buy everything at a bigger price, except the very basic stuff (hum-vee).

Another random idea is to put a crate spawn point in every destroyed building (next to the MCT), allowing the losing team more opportunities to get something.

I don't know, I'd play so many different marathon ideas.

I have a better idea! Don't lose your building in the first place!

[SFJake]

*deleted cause of strong language violation*

[Truxa]

He's right though, Jake. The game can be turned around with organized rushes even after a single building is destroyed for just 1 team.

Right now, it's like the original Ren. No building (WF/Strip), no purchase (Vehicles)

If you'd change it to destroying a building like Bar/Hon/WF/Strip to spike purchase costs, it would massively overpower the importance of the refinery, because, no money no purchase. No Hon ... meh why bother ... same with powerplant on maps without base defenses

It would skew the balance too much to 1 direction (=gay)

[SFJake]

He's not right at anything. There's no illusion in place where my change wouldn't change the game. Of course it would. Thats the whole point.

And my personal suggestion has none of the drawback you mention. The point is to have a separate system that still makes a building loss painful and temporarily crippling (and by crippling I mean no buying things at all) and that doesn't make the refinery an even better target.

If you want to throw around the argument that "it wouldn't be balanced", any one of us can actually sit down and think about the simple ways to balance this and make it a fun marathon alternative.

[RypeL]

What if instead of bringing a building back you could invest money into research at the PT ? One Option to research could be Airdrops. Airdrops could be weapon and/or armour crates or vehicle airdrops. So if you defend long enough to finish a research option you could get wepons and/or vehicles back. The enemy doesent need to know what you researched first so you could surprise them by either rushing your research for weapons/armour or vehicles. To not make it too powerfull it should take a while/money to research something and airdrops could have a cooldown so that the team with the buildings left can still get the weapons/vehicles at a faster pace.

[Goku]

Not a bad idea but it should be very limited else whats the point in killing buildings? lol

[RoundShades]

Not a bad idea but it should be very limited else whats the point in killing buildings? lol

Of course it should be limited, but Rypel's idea sounds like what already works with a pretty high favor rating in Classic Ren's servers.

You can get airdrop vehicles and characters from the !veh or !char commands in those servers. However, everything costs 2x as much and has a cooldown per person.

I would love for PTs, to allow a pool system of 20k creds, to initially enable it for the team, and then when the structure is down:

-the bar/hon pt allows character purchase for increased cost and a 4 minute cooldown

-the wf/air pt allows vehicle purchase for increased cost and a 4 minute cooldown

-the ref pt allows the destroyed structure to still generate 1 credit per tick

-the pp allows the destroyed structure to purchase units at normal price still, or run the defences still (not both or two seperate upgrades?)

-the defences allows the destroyed structure to still fire at half damage or half fire-rate or whatever.

Since it is a large team purchase at the structure PT, it is even better because it is earned and not given.

[DoFlof]

What if instead of bringing a building back you could invest money into research at the PT ? One Option to research could be Airdrops.

I was thinking the same thing...this would help crippled team to have some option to defend against heavy pushes but still not enough to make significant attacks on enemy.

[yosh56]

Believe someone on these boards already mentioned the idea of supply beacons, and vehicle beacons.

It's more CnC-ish than many of the newer ideas implemented, and I already suggested it before, so of course I'm down with that idea.

Could just make it a place able beacon, and perhaps have different levels of them with increasing costs/cool-downs(e.g a fairly cheap one with a 5 minute cool down that only calls down a group of light vehicles, then a more expensive one at 8 minutes that will give main battle tanks and a few light vehicles, then finally an expensive one that could be bought and would provide along the lines of Mammoths and Flames/Stanks.)

The team-fund idea also feels like it needs to just be hard-coded into the game for several purchases.

[Goku]

My Old Classic Ren had that. Not saying it’s a bad idea. Maybe RypeL could make a mutator so we can test this? Or give the coders around an idea of where to look.

To the above post: That’s a good idea as well what about a supply drop beacon that gives you a crate that will either spawn a vech or give you a uniform randomly?

Also had the option in my old server if a hotwire was repairing the MCT on the AGT it would power it to fire the machine guns and the obi but with half damage and double charge up time. Could be a good dynamic?

[SFJake]

The beacon ideas are pretty neat, but most suggestions have the same problem of making the refinery an ever more important target than it ever was. (unless the impact of the refinery was lessened so that people could realistically still get credits at -some- rate that isn't 5 credits per kill)

IMO, I like the idea that you can call for a class or vehicle of your choice, but at a higher cost and with a delay since the game would take a few minutes to actually deliver it to you. (maybe how long it takes would depend on how expensive it is?)

The general problem, again, is we'Re trying to put a comeback mechanic but we make it about credits.

Which makes one problem clear -> no matter what solution you add, the refinery is still a completely crippling blow. So while we could circumvent the barrack or weapons factory loss, a refinery loss is still pretty much the end.

Which means all these solutions are not very good unless we also change something about how we gain credits when the refinery is dead.

(unless you use a comeback mechanic that is not tied to credits)

My main idea to accompany any of those being that when the refinery is down (and only then), credit gain from actions are increased quite a lot. Getting a full kill from full health to 0 even on a basic class should feel rewarding in credits when its your only potential source of revenue.

Otherwise the problem will always be the exact same. Kill the refinery, the team eventually can't do jack.

[RoundShades]

The general problem, again, is we'Re trying to put a comeback mechanic but we make it about credits.

Honestly, the refinery is a lackluster powerplant, like the gdi infantry or nod air is to the opposites.

Being more important is possibly a better change to the game, by that theory.

Honestly, credits get abundant not a few minutes into a match, it would be better if there were more things to spend credits on. Like secondaries. Xept, not all like the carbine. Variety leads to everything being worth spending money on, to compliment the advantages of the other weapons/tools/situations in the game.

...or team pool funds for large purhcases, such as to reestablish some structure function.

Like Goku said, it was and would be badass if base defences could be half-powered by some game mechanic.

Matter of fact, to humor you, a second idea to reverse structure death, that doesn't depend on credits, could be like Goku said. You could be able to "repair" the MCT and the structure work at half-power. Make it so the MCT can be repaired, and fills to full health, but its health decays fast so you have to repair it constantly or frequently. I figure, if it has to be constant, then small games will be difficult as it takes at least 2 people to use a structure, while if you could repair it yourself and then use it then it then you are less dependent on a team.

Because teamwork should help, but a lot of things that "require" a second teammate means it fails once the game gets too small or reality kicks in and nobody wants to have to repair the mct 100% the time.

[MonkeyBoy]

I like the airdrop idea. Imagine you have no bar or wf, but you want a tank right? You can buy it for whatever price the devs deem fair, probably 3 times as much , and after 1 minute it gets delivered by chinook or something. Chars could work in a similar way , except you get a crate that only you can collect and it transforms you into the unit you want when you walk into it. There would be a large cooldown to make it fair though.

Another alternative is to make a couple of infantry units available to buy with no barr like rocket soldier and maybe chaingunner to give your team some chance at defending from a rush when you have nothing to buy.

Or just have the option to rebuild the building with a certain amount of cash.

I personally think it doesnt need to change because ive been used to ren for so many years and im used to the formula or no second chances haha

[RoundShades]

I personally think it doesnt need to change because ive been used to ren for so many years and im used to the formula or no second chances haha

So am I, and I still end most sessions of Ren on early "structure loss". What better time is it to call it quits? I don't do it every structure loss like a jerk, but after a few hours that would be the likely point to end my night.

The way I see it, I stick through many early game structure loss. After hanging in through those for a few hours, it is the game's gift given back to me to be allowed to quit just one of them, my reward for not having done so the last however many.

[MonkeyBoy]

Depends on the map and if the other team is gonna finish us off quick or just be dicks and whore us like farm animals

[SFJake]

The general problem, again, is we'Re trying to put a comeback mechanic but we make it about credits.

Honestly, the refinery is a lackluster powerplant, like the gdi infantry or nod air is to the opposites.

Being more important is possibly a better change to the game, by that theory.

Honestly, credits get abundant not a few minutes into a match, it would be better if there were more things to spend credits on. Like secondaries. Xept, not all like the carbine. Variety leads to everything being worth spending money on, to compliment the advantages of the other weapons/tools/situations in the game.

...or team pool funds for large purhcases, such as to reestablish some structure function.

Like Goku said, it was and would be badass if base defences could be half-powered by some game mechanic.

Matter of fact, to humor you, a second idea to reverse structure death, that doesn't depend on credits, could be like Goku said. You could be able to "repair" the MCT and the structure work at half-power. Make it so the MCT can be repaired, and fills to full health, but its health decays fast so you have to repair it constantly or frequently. I figure, if it has to be constant, then small games will be difficult as it takes at least 2 people to use a structure, while if you could repair it yourself and then use it then it then you are less dependent on a team.

Because teamwork should help, but a lot of things that "require" a second teammate means it fails once the game gets too small or reality kicks in and nobody wants to have to repair the mct 100% the time.

Like you said, people already have to do tedious jobs of sitting in front of MCTs to repair. Add that and it kind of becomes ridiculous.

No, its not a good idea to make the refinery even more important. Not because of the Power Plant, but because of the barracks and WF. We want those to be primary targets, too. If you have ways to still buy them and make an entire comeback mechanic based around credits, then only the refinery matters. And thats not good.

I'll recycle my favorite idea:

-When a building is destroyed, a timer of 15 minutes starts.

-After 15 minutes, the building is restored at 1 health, and made invulnerable for 30 seconds. The team needs to repair it and get ready to defend the building. The building is only usable after those 30 seconds.

-If another big building is destroyed while a timer was running, the timer goes back 10 minutes (but not above the maximum time, in this case 15 minutes)

-When more than 1 building is down, the people can vote to decide which building will be restoryed at the end of the timer. If no vote is made, the first to be destroyed is the first to come back.

-Small buildings can be restored using credits. There is a delay of 5 minutes before they come back. Go in front of them and press E to invest.

This idea is my favorite simple because:

-It does not make killing the refinery the only important target

-It does not make building loss pointless. You are still forced to deal without the building for a time.

-It encourages the other team to keep attacking to try and destroy more buildings and keep their advantage.

-It should not be too difficult to implement.

If that isn't enough for you, you can always make it more complex and allow people to spend credits to lower the timer, but only to a point, say half the timer.

Obviously you can change the timer here, 15 minutes is probably too short, I don't know.

I just cannot stand ideas that are based entirely on credits. Refinery dies too early and its game over. Why? Thats not fun.

The other way around isn't fun either. You play maps with big income of money, building is destroyed, and people just ignore the drawback.

Thats why I like my idea. Imagine crippling the enemy base, even though its a marathon, people are incentivized to attack, and create even more intense scenario, because you know one day they'll just get their buildings back, and start building more vehicles. You can't let that happen!

It would more intense, and the feeling that you can comeback would be much stronger. Marathon shouldn't be a game where one team becomes hopeless while the other team takes it easy for hours.

Anyway, I don't think I can make my point more than that.

[RoundShades]

Eh, i am willing to try anything, whether related to repair, credits, or automated on a cooldown.

I just think credits need spending anyway since they literally don't matter if the ref isn't killed within 8 minutes, and repairing the mct for 10 seconds to be able to use the structure for 30 seconds (with a price spike on units), are good ideas.

Besides, the EASIEST idea to implement, is just a different way buildings function in a "destroyed" state. Like I said before, just let structures when destroyed build vehicles and infantry at twice the cost, generate credits at half the rate, respawn the harvester at a few minute delay, fire the defences at half damage, ect. That is a "autonomous" method, not entirely based on credits, and keeps structure loss harsh.

[yosh56]

...Let's just throw it out there since it's relevant to the current back-and-forth: did we ever think of implementing a second currency? Think more so like Veterancy points that are only rewarded by killing infantry/vehicles and buildings(not just for damaging them). They wouldn't be tied to any building, and the only way to earn them is to actually do something productive.

The points could be used to fund beacons for airdrops, that way the Ref isn't necessarily a deciding factor for them. Of course the prices would need to be adjusted to make sure it at least felt like it took more effort to buy with Veterancy than it did with normal credits.

[RoundShades]

...Let's just throw it out there since it's relevant to the current back-and-forth: did we ever think of implementing a second currency? Think more so like Veterancy points that are only rewarded by killing infantry/vehicles and buildings(not just for damaging them). They wouldn't be tied to any building, and the only way to earn them is to actually do something productive.

The points could be used to fund beacons for airdrops, that way the Ref isn't necessarily a deciding factor for them. Of course the prices would need to be adjusted to make sure it at least felt like it took more effort to buy with Veterancy than it did with normal credits.

Veterancy was always nice in server mods that had it, rewarded for combat instead of the ref, and rewarded more for combat than credits were since kills are negligible credits.

However, that system wasn't so much "spent" as it was "established". You earned it and that allowed you to unlock supply drops, it never spent them it just had a cooldown (and it took creds too, the normal amount iirc).

So, wouldn't it make more sense for veterancy to either automatically unlock vehicle drops and character change with a cooldown, or for veterancy to be currency you spend at a PT to restore some operation to the structure like Rypel suggested where you pay enough veterancy at a PT and you can buy things again for a markup or cooldown or whatever...

[yosh56]

I'm aware of how Vet-points worked in server mods, but I was just suggesting them as a second form of currency to buy either items or supply drops. They don't necessarily need to be called Vet-points, it was just the most CnC'esque thing we could go for.

[RypeL]

I like the idea of bringing in veterancy points to not make airdrops to just depend on credits. I dont know how the old ren vet systems worked though. So if you have some more good ideas from that pls share. I am not the only dev liking this idea so i think this whole airdrop idea has a good chance of making it into the game. We just need to continue to flesh out the ideas.

Basically what we might already be able to agree on i think might be something like this:

- You spend credits and/or veterancy points at a PT to unlock airdrops

- When they are unlocked you can get a supply beacon at the PT that you can place somewhere to call in an airdrop at that location (we might have to limit this to your own base)

- An airdrop cooldown per person might be good

- Airdrops might be payed with veterancy points (how to get them ?)

- How many credits/veterancy points are needed could be tied to the matchtime or a server setting on marathon servers

Maybe veterancy points could be tied to score, as you can still get a good ammount of score by defending/repairing.

The idea of instead adding a mechanic to bring back a building i still dont like that much. I mean we already had airdrops animations in Black Dawn that we could reuse. Still it would be easier to just add a mechanic to reenable parts of a building but i think airdrops would work better and would be worth the investment.

[yosh56]

Hurray for The Yosh finally hijacking a topic and getting noticed.

I like the idea of bringing in veterancy points to not make airdrops to just depend on credits. I dont know how the old ren vet systems worked though.

The Veterancy systems didn't exactly work like that in Renegade, they were used for getting actual in-server promotions for the round. Those added health/armour to characters, but as someone already mentioned they unlocked some !buy functions on some servers. I'm not hinting at bringing that in, so you need not worry about how those systems worked, except for how vet-points were earned which I'll touch on in a second.

You spend credits and/or veterancy points at a PT to unlock airdrops

Good, except what do you mean by 'unlock'? Would it be that difficult to just make a tab for them (or throw the beacons under items)?

- When they are unlocked you can get a supply beacon at the PT that you can place somewhere to call in an airdrop at that location (we might have to limit this to your own base)

Could limit SOME to the base. Assuming the supply drops were done via transport helicopters, you could just make them vulnerable to being shot down, leading players to have options and be able to take the risk of calling down reinforcements in enemy territory.

- An airdrop cooldown per person might be good

Do that, and people will badger you all to put cool downs on nuke/ion beacons. I guarantee it. That's not to say it's a bad idea though.

- Airdrops might be payed with veterancy points (how to get them ?)

Alright, I said I'd answer it eventually.

How it worked in the Renegade servers that had it:

Infantry kills were usually based on the unit killed (free infantry were worth 1 point on death while tier 3 infantry were worth 3 IIRC).

Vehicles also gave differing vet-points I believe, but you could get partial vet-points if you did significant damage to a vehicle but somebody else actually killed it. (I believe vehicles ranged from 3 vet points and up, but I don't think we need to copy that system directly since we're looking at using this differently)

Buildings gave the most Veterancy points when KILLED (I believe it was like 15).

Repairing also rewarded vet-points, though the formula for that is a complete mystery to me (maybe X amount of damage-repair = 1 vet point. It couldn't be too easy to earn however.)

Maybe veterancy points could be tied to score, as you can still get a good ammount of score by defending/repairing.

Eh, tying them to score almost ties them right to credits. Again, the Veterancy systems in OldRen still rewarded repairing, but your Veterancy rewards were far greater for actual productivity than just outright point-whoring with repairs or sieging.

[MonkeyBoy]

...Let's just throw it out there since it's relevant to the current back-and-forth: did we ever think of implementing a second currency? Think more so like Veterancy points that are only rewarded by killing infantry/vehicles and buildings(not just for damaging them). They wouldn't be tied to any building, and the only way to earn them is to actually do something productive.

The points could be used to fund beacons for airdrops, that way the Ref isn't necessarily a deciding factor for them. Of course the prices would need to be adjusted to make sure it at least felt like it took more effort to buy with Veterancy than it did with normal credits.

Hey yosh thats a great idea, why didnt i think of that! That will force players to actually do something productive if they want to get something ! If we ever implement something that can bring back buildings ( i still think it shouldnt happen ) then this has to be the way to go about it.

Also i know this doesnt fit in with the feel of the game, but i would like to see these vet points being able to purchase upgrades for units similar to C&C 3 upgrades. It would reward the players that actually do something to help the team

[Truxa]

I personally think it doesnt need to change because ive been used to ren for so many years and im used to the formula or no second chances haha

So am I, and I still end most sessions of Ren on early "structure loss". What better time is it to call it quits? I don't do it every structure loss like a jerk, but after a few hours that would be the likely point to end my night.

The way I see it, I stick through many early game structure loss. After hanging in through those for a few hours, it is the game's gift given back to me to be allowed to quit just one of them, my reward for not having done so the last however many.

What better way of getting this tingly feeling of being in a disadvantage for more than an hour or 2 before it's (finally) ended! In my books, lasting a defense for more than 30 minutes after you lose 1 or 2 buildings, is a victory.

Better yet, being so organized in the end, to overcome a 30m-1h defense and toppling a single structure, evening the score. Suddenly, the attacking force has to retreat and defend, in which they suck at that point, because they got used to the attack/siege while the others were used to try and sneak in.

[Nielsen]

The key here is to provide something fair to the losing team without also giving it to the winning team. Anything relying on score, money or possibly a second currency will also favour the winning team. How can the losing team "outplay" the winning team if they're given the same grants?

There should be something special unlocked only in the case of building destruction combined with "good play" w/e that might be.

Airdrop sounds reasonable so long as it's only granted in case of building destruction.

Don't read anything into the dev posts though, just speculating here. Maybe we can come up with something to help the end game because it's something I've personally had issues with since we started, there's inherent snowballing effect with ren at least in "average" matches.

[yosh56]

Airdrop sounds reasonable so long as it's only granted in case of building destruction.

Could easily work. I mean, it makes less sense truthfully with Nod considering they airdrop all their vehicles anyway, but that bit of realism doesn't need to matter, as we already deal with it.

How can the losing team "outplay" the winning team if they're given the same grants?

That happens even in the most noobish of games. When teams are on their last leg (e.g down to no vehicles and maybe just basic infantry) they already start pulling ahead in points due to factors like the cheapness of their units and generally being more efficient K/D due to the offence having to move out of their comfort zone to actually seal the deal. Making that efficiency translate to actual currency (which credits currently seem to fail at) means that even though the offence may be gaining a 2nd currency, they're giving more of it away due to throwing units at their enemies. That concept translates already when you look at how easy it is to win by points once you're down to free infantry vs. a fully functional team.

Most matches, from the looks of things, the defence doesn't need a handout; they just need to still be able to feel like they haven't lost entirely. Perhaps having airdrops always be available could be balanced by the airdrops themselves lowering in cost slightly as the base theoretically becomes more and more threatened (e.g buildings being destroyed). It would make sense to be more willing to send help to an installation that actually needed it than one that had on-site capabilities. Granted, the price drop could be counter-balanced by the cool down time increasing as structures are destroyed, simulating a waning interest in actually wasting resources to aid the base from outside sources.

On the opposing end, the more structures destroyed on the enemy team, the more expensive calling in airdrops would be for the winning team, as they obviously have things under control, so why call for outside help?

Again, handouts are kind of unnecessary and seem more like hand-holding than anything. A function that simply evolves as the game goes on to help slightly balance the odds is an actual mechanic.

[SFJake]

So with the airdrop idea, play on Islands, kill the WF and you basically didn't kill it at all as they keep getting vehicles constantly. Unless the cooldowns were huge, or team based, which wouldn't work.

So how do airdrops make any sense? I don't see it.

And vet points have the issue of helping the winning team as already described.

[RypeL]

Of course Airdrops should not benefit the winning team equally. Thats also why i think airdrops should only be allowed in your base so that the winning team cant use them to reinforce in the field. But if you still have your structures their should be no point in using Airdrops as they should be more costly (by having to researc h them, buying them, or spending veteran points or something) then getting stuff the normal way. So they will benefit the loosing team a lot more than the winning team. It will not allow the loosing team to get an advantage over the winning team but it will allow them the chance of becomming equally again (when both teams only have airdrops available again).

@Jake.

Your first saying this:

IMO, I like the idea that you can call for a class or vehicle of your choice, but at a higher cost and with a delay

then this:

So how do airdrops make any sense? I don't see it.

I know your a dedicated ren-x guy but you also like to make noise but im tryint to get a constructive discussion going here. Airdrops are certainly possible to balance, we just have to think this through. And i am sick of having to think of every gameplaymechanic ourselves because people turn forum discussions into rants and a waste of time. If you already gave up on the idea of Airdrops and have no ideas about them to share then dont.

So with the airdrop idea, play on Islands, kill the WF and you basically didn't kill it at all as they keep getting vehicles constantly. Unless the cooldowns were huge, or team based, which wouldn't work.

As said before player based cooldowns might work well. And having to wait like 2 mins for your next vehicle on islands when the enemy is already on your door is hardly the same then getting your vehicles instantly.

[RoundShades]

Yeah, I am pretty sure with cost increase and cooldown, that a 2-5 minute period of using a character/vehicle will end before 2-5 minutes most the time against a better equipped enemy, and then that player is stuck with the rest of the cooldown running through free characters. That is much different than going through 400 cost characters (which you usually do when you die regardless how broke u are), or being stuck with only free characters (nobody likes noobjet)

[SFJake]

Fine. I know I'm being a bit of a dick but I wanted to go elsewhere than airdrops.

But fine.

Lets see a way to work with aidrops, and with the delays and the cooldown. This is based on what you were saying already.

-Every air drop has a DELAY (the time it takes for you to receive the drop) and a 5 minute COOLDOWN (which starts AFTER the air drop)

-Different units or vehicles force a different delay

-Every building destroyed allows a different sort of drop

When the Refinery is destroyed, a player can call for a Resource Drop.

When the Barracks is destroyed, a player can call for a Class Drop.

When the Weapons Factory is destroyed, a player can call for a Vehicle Drop.

-Resource Drop: Contains 200 credits, 15 seconds delay, 5 minute cooldown. People can use their airdrops on resources when the refinery is down to gain some minimal amount of cash.

-Class Drop: This varries depending on the class.

Tier 1: 1 minute delay, 5 minute cooldown, normal price

Tier 2: 2 minute delay, 5 minute cooldown, 1.25x price

Tier 3: 3 minute delay, 5 minute cooldown, 1.5x price

Tier 3 gets a price increase to make destroying the barracks particularily valuable.

For the sake of balance, the Stealth Black Ops is considered Tier 3 for airdrops.

Technicians should probably also be tier 3 because of how important they are.

-Vehicle Drop: Also depends on the tiers.

Tier 1: Humvee, Buggy

Tier 2: APC, MRLs, Artillery

Tier 3: Light Tank, Medium Tank

Tier 4: Stealth Tank, Flame Tank, Mammoth Tank & Air Vehicles

Tier 1: 1 minute delay, 5 minute cooldown, normal price

Tier 2: 2 minute delay, 5 minute cooldown, 1.25x price

Tier 3: 3 minute delay, 5 minute cooldown, 1.5x price

Tier 4: 4 minute delay, 5 minute cooldown, 1.75x price

You only have 1 airdrop per player, no matter how many buildings are destroyed. If you call for a vehicle drop, you need to wait out the delay and the cooldown before calling anything else.

You can always reduce the cooldown slightly when both barracks and factories are destroyed, but keep the delay.

As for HOW the airdrops themselves work, I think the enemy should have the opportunity to steal what you get, but thats about it.

This...

-Gives the losing team something to do, even without buildings, and even without a refinery they can use their drops to gather some credits so that they eventually gain something

-The price increase on higher tiers and the high delay makes them much harder to use, so the barracks and weapons factory are still important targets.

I guess this could work. I went into details because details matters, though I'm not saying I have all the right numbers.

I'll stop worrying too much about the refinery. Although I always want a way for players without credits to gain some. Likewise, players can get so much money if they can an early lead. Maybe we should have a cap on how much credits players can have? I don't know. That part confuses me.

[RypeL]

Thx Jake, good post. Got arround thinking about this a bit more deeply now. Your suggesting a system that sounds like it could be pretty effective without the need of implementing veterancy points wich keeps it simple for players and devs. So it is pretty charming. I will discuss it with the guys.

[maties7]

I think air drops shouldn't give access to all technologies. Only tier 1 and 2 should be available with some exceptions (sbh and technicians). And also air drops should delivery harvester automatically or manually by player.

[SFJake]

Thx Jake, good post. Got arround thinking about this a bit more deeply now. Your suggesting a system that sounds like it could be pretty effective without the need of implementing veterancy points wich keeps it simple for players and devs. So it is pretty charming. I will discuss it with the guys.

Good. Thank you. Glad we're getting along.

About making high tiers unavailable, its definitely a thing to consider. I mean, its not like any numbers I gave are correct either. It might be nice to know that no ramjets-railguns-volt rifles can be used and it would make the other infantry shine a bit more, too. Yes, I think that would be better.

If people actually like this idea, we can find out whats best.

I didn't think about the harvester either. Maybe it should have a cooldown of its own, so without WF-airstrip you get one back automatically after 5 minutes.

[vleessjuu]

I love Renegade, but I agree with the OP that the endgame can be a bit of a drag. If neither side manages to take a building down and both sides end up with a good amount of resources, it can go on for ever and ever just because there's no real way to starve the enemy team out. Killing the harvester over and over makes it difficult for the enemy team to mount a counter offensive and gives your team a ton of extra credits, but the advantage is often not enough to break the innate defender's advantage.

Now I don't have any real solutions ready, but I'm thinking along the line of minor stuff, such as making vehicle purchases slower (i.e. longer cooldown between buying vehicles) or simply re balancing the economy. Perhaps even a cooldown on infantry purchases? Some maps could probably use an extra avenue of attack to make defending a bit more difficult.

[DoctorB0NG]

I love Renegade, but I agree with the OP that the endgame can be a bit of a drag. If neither side manages to take a building down and both sides end up with a good amount of resources, it can go on for ever and ever just because there's no real way to starve the enemy team out. Killing the harvester over and over makes it difficult for the enemy team to mount a counter offensive and gives your team a ton of extra credits, but the advantage is often not enough to break the innate defender's advantage.

Now I don't have any real solutions ready, but I'm thinking along the line of minor stuff, such as making vehicle purchases slower (i.e. longer cooldown between buying vehicles) or simply re balancing the economy. Perhaps even a cooldown on infantry purchases? Some maps could probably use an extra avenue of attack to make defending a bit more difficult.

Sounds like you're not a fan of the marathon game type where there is no time limit. Try playing on some All Out War (AOW) servers where there's a finite time limit.

[vleessjuu]

Sounds like you're not a fan of the marathon game type where there is no time limit. Try playing on some All Out War (AOW) servers where there's a finite time limit.

I played tons of Renegade back in the days and this was pretty much my main gripe. Sure, you can play on a finite time limit server, but that doesn't really solve the problem, IMO. Winning by points is kinda unsatisfying and the winner is pretty much determined once one of the two teams has been boxed in by the other.

Don't get me wrong, I love Renegade for everything it does right: the asymmetric gameplay, the C&C feel, the action. Gameflow has always been off, though, if you ask me. Dynamic games with a good flow have a proper balance between snowball mechanisms and comeback mechanisms.

In Renegade, I feel like it's too easy to get an insurmountable advantage while at the same time it's often too difficult to finish the job. Initially one team can snowball very hard, but then the game either ends very quickly (which is ok, as long as those kinds of snowball doesn't happen too often and too easily) or not at all. Personally, I would prefer a bit less initial snowballing and simultaneous more opportunity to finish the job and I don't think this requires very big changes to the core gameplay.

[JC_denton]

This isn't a permenant solution, but what about just changing crate odds for players on a team depending on what buildings have been destroyed?

Warfactory/Airstrip gone? Slightly higher chance of vehicles in crates

Barracks/HoN gone? Slightly higher chance of Character/Spy crates.

[yosh56]

This isn't a permenant solution, but what about just changing crate odds for players on a team depending on what buildings have been destroyed?

Warfactory/Airstrip gone? Slightly higher chance of vehicles in crates

Barracks/HoN gone? Slightly higher chance of Character/Spy crates.

It's already like that.

[JTeKE]

You could make any foundational gameplay changes as modes, but please don't change the defaults. Any classic Ren player worth anything knows that a game is rarely over with the loss of just one building. I've seen comebacks with the loss of 2+ buildings in 8 player clanwars and 40 player marathons and everything in between. Don't reward the teams that don't feel like playing their way out of poor play.

Welfare ren FTL.