Why Havoc and Sakura are broken.

[Taramafor]

I'm going to start off by saying that I have nothing against sniping. Infact I rather enjoy it at times.

At first I thought it was just me that thought the high class snipers are broken when a single havoc shot down my transport chopper in walls (I was trying to fly at the side of the walls). But then I shot down an apache as a havoc myself in the next match and bragged about it. And a buggy. And a MRLS. And someone else said snipers are broken in the game to which I had to agree with Havocs and Sakura. Why is this a problem? Well it's simple. It makes light vehicles AND aircraft practically useless. All at long range. I don't think people think about sniping vehicles enough but when I was playing havoc anytime an apache popped up I just gave it a few shots and if it wasn't shot down it would be forced to retreat back to base. Keep in mind that this is JUST me. In the end I think the only possible solutions are to either decrease damage to light vehicles by a degree, raise the cost of them (Perhaps 2000), give them an alt fire (underbarrel rail gun as a seperate weapon or something) effective against light vehicles with limited ammo (keeping the main infantry killing aspect deadly as ever of course) or make it a single shot weapon.

What do you guys think of them? Keep in mind that whatever happens it will apply to both sides. Also keep in mind that when I say broken it's to light vehicles/aircraft only so no complaining about their infantry killing skills of which they are supposed to be efficient at.

[Bananas]

Awww yeah! The thread I have been waiting for! Time to write a yosh length post. Wait, oh....

Also keep in mind that when I say broken it's to light vehicles/aircraft only so no complaining about their infantry killing skills of which they are supposed to be efficient at.

Ok then

Edit: Never mind. I don't have a problem with havoc/sakura light armor damage. I just have a problem with how overall strong they are. Can hardly go wrong with grabbing a ramjet. Won't derail your thread with sniper discussion though.

If havoc/sakura light armor damage was to be nerfed, then apache/orca would need looking at again. With the hp buff they aren't flying paper anymore. Apache/Orca rushes are borderline op in beta 3 if done right. Those 10% building damage secondary missiles...

Edited December 1, 2014 by Guest

[noxidevad]

Awww yeah! The thread I have been waiting for! Time to write a yosh length post. Wait, oh....

This is far to short to be a Yosh post although saying that what name does he go under in renx in-game as i never seem to recall a yosh in the server o.0

[SFJake]

lol.

Havoc & Sakura are what prevents light vehicles from going ape **** all over the map anyway they want. And the infantry killing aspect (at close range especially) is what is utterly overpowered about them, making them the go-to class way too often.

Nerf that, and they wouldn't be the primary choice that covers both perfect anti-infantry and anti-light vehicles.

But if you nerf just their anti-light abilities, you need to add something equivalent in power. Dealing with artilleries and aircrafts at their DPS is necessary for Renegade to function.

[RoundShades]

lol.

Havoc & Sakura are what prevents light vehicles from going ape **** all over the map anyway they want. And the infantry killing aspect (at close range especially) is what is utterly overpowered about them, making them the go-to class way too often.

Nerf that, and they wouldn't be the primary choice that covers both perfect anti-infantry and anti-light vehicles.

But if you nerf just their anti-light abilities, you need to add something equivalent in power. Dealing with artilleries and aircrafts at their DPS is necessary for Renegade to function.

I think ramjets are OP, but they were moreso in original renegade. Against light armor and infantry. And someone else above was also right, light vehs are cheap powerhouses of dps, being completely flimsy even to ramjets is what keeps them sane. Even then, one can be repaired faster than ramjet damage. However, a ramjet can soak off some heal while a tank also pulverizes it, together they render lights weak, which makes sense for their cost.

Now, as most people mention, the longrange one-hit infantry aspect causes a lot of problems. If you could buy just a 50 increase to health/armor for free infantry classes (like in "items" terminal), it wouldn't be nearly as bad. Generally, all snipers also easily headshot their victim, making good ones instakill with any sniper at any range. Really, the nerfs they got are appreciated, but they are still overpowered in ways that are hard to address.

[yosh56]

My reputation precedes me =p

Oddly enough, I've nothing to say that's not already been said. All light vehicles, especially artillery, are DPS whores, and them having a long range hard-counter just keeps them from being an end all be all late game. Aircraft are particularly troublesome since they can fly out of most weapon's range fairly easily, and the missile launcher is mostly useless unless they're flying in a completely open area.

Devs already mentioned nerfing n00bjet's OHKO to infantry. Their light armour damage isn't much of a problem. If it ever got nerfed, PICs and Rails would need a buff to keep aircraft from being (more) overpowered than they already are.

Seriously, that passenger rocket tho'!

And, Dave, I haven't been home to play in months. Still top 50 on the board though, if just barely. Probably not even now.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Guest

[noxidevad]

And, Dave, I haven't been home to play in months. Still top 50 on the board though, if just barely. Probably not even now.

I was wondering why haven't seen your name around i figured you went under-cover lol well least your still active within the community. sure by now you can write your own renx book lol

[Taramafor]

But if you nerf just their anti-light abilities, you need to add something equivalent in power. Dealing with artilleries and aircrafts at their DPS is necessary for Renegade to function.

Maybe buff rocket soldiers while nerfing Havocs/Sakura's? They do seem to be a bit under powered overall. Plus that would make them good at anti vehicle roles. Let's be honest, right now they're next to useless compared to the snipers. Which is just silly. One does a small amount of damage to vehicles and is useless against infantry. The other can take anything out except heavy armor. And even then rocket soldiers don't do nearly enough damage, to light or heavy both. In the time it takes for a rocker soldier to do half damage a chopper a havoc/Sakura will get it to 10-20% health or destroy it. And it only takes like 2 minutes of waiting at the start to grab a Havoc and cause, well, havoc.

And I know rocker soldiers are a none class unit but all troops should always, and I mean ALWAYS have a use on the battlefield. Engineers get more love then they do when it comes to anti vehicle.

[epicelite]

Ramjet shouldn't be effective VS vehicles. If you want to take out a vehicle get a rocket launcher or a railgun/personal ion cannon.

[Taramafor]

Oh wait, rocket soldiers aren't a none class unit. Well then... That just means Havoc's/Sakura's are more over powered in that regard.

[Xpert]

In Renegade, Ramjets were considered the anti-air defense since there was no such thing as a lock-on with rocket related weapons. In Renegade-X, it's different. Buffing the rocket soldiers a slight bit would be cool to make them somewhat effective against air units and then only slightly decreasing the damage of ramjets to apaches and orcas. Can always just change the armor type of the air units. In regular renegade, a few servers like Jelly changed the armor type of the Chinook helicopters to make them useful in that they are the APCs of the sky.

[RoundShades]

Oh wait, rocket soldiers aren't a none class unit. Well then... That just means Havoc's/Sakura's are more over powered in that regard.

I rocketeer all the time. As well as gunner/patch/laserchaingun

They do damage to heavy armor, which is what GDI brings to your door. Nod team's worse problems, is their lack of faith in their light tank. When havoc spam is bad, 2+ light tanks, a field of light tanks if you must, does a job while not being hard-countered.

If I had to balance the game myself, I would do an old school ren favorite with ramjet balance: I would leave the PIC as 4 shots a clip, and the ramjet as 1 shot a clip and 29 shots total. That way, the ramjet can kill anything anywhere, but with a servere rate of fire reduction. They can still do big threat damage to light armor especially in large numbers.

And in all actuality, they aren't that bad. Before I would nerf them, I would rather leave PIC/Railgun at 4 shots a clip and 32 in refill, and then buff volt rifles to have their secondary effect at long range in a tight shot group all the time as a primary and to normalize that damage where if 1 hits it does full damage but all 8 hitting still does 1 hit of full damage (support's shotgun from SMNC) and to give them the PIC holographic sight as a secondary and possibly increase range. The volt rifle needs it the most, as it should tear down infantry in assault rifle fights using hipfire and sweeping infantry, as well as steadily bring down a tank, since it's other 1ks do the same in big-chunks.

Because I feel ramjets are universally very okay, but its worse that other 1ks are less useful in spite. The other 1ks can use buffs and the ramjet can use a rate of fire nerf. Also, this would still make it more powerful than the 500 sniper, but would leave the 500 sniper it's own benefits.

In Renegade, Ramjets were considered the anti-air defense since there was no such thing as a lock-on with rocket related weapons. In Renegade-X, it's different. Buffing the rocket soldiers a slight bit would be cool to make them somewhat effective against air units and then only slightly decreasing the damage of ramjets to apaches and orcas. Can always just change the armor type of the air units. In regular renegade, a few servers like Jelly changed the armor type of the Chinook helicopters to make them useful in that they are the APCs of the sky.

I would like to see the chinook given heavy armor and slightly less actual health. That way, it could respectably be used as an air infantry invasion option.

[SFJake]

Heavy Armor is a bit too much. Wasn't there Medium Armor with some mod? I even think the stealth tank had it. (though I'm not saying it should)

Which is basically an armor that reduces damage from ramjets and such by 50%, making them weaker but not ineffective (compared to heavy armor which reduces by 95%, I believe?)

Full heavy armor for chinook is too much, thats for sure. But they could deserve medium armor.

[yosh56]

Said it before, will say it again, aircraft do need their own armour type. Weaker vs. rockets than heavy/light, maybe less weak towards the ramjet. I still don't find it all that disturbing for Havoc/Sakura to roflstomp them. It takes almost 2 full clips to down them with the health buff, so it really isn't that much of a bother till they start coming out in mass. I mean hell, have you seen the massive amount of air that gets spammed? Having a hard-counter to it just keeps it sane.

Rocket soldiers needing an all-around buff is iffy. Right now you have 55 damage on a rocket to any vehicle. I feel like at most this could be moved up to 80 vs aircraft alone, but left the same for other vehicles. They're relatively cheap, can be afforded at the beginning of most games, and have lock-on. They're made to be spammable, not one man armies.

P.s. Passenger rocket again. Aircraft still OP.

[Xpert]

Heavy Armor is a bit too much. Wasn't there Medium Armor with some mod? I even think the stealth tank had it. (though I'm not saying it should)

Which is basically an armor that reduces damage from ramjets and such by 50%, making them weaker but not ineffective (compared to heavy armor which reduces by 95%, I believe?)

Full heavy armor for chinook is too much, thats for sure. But they could deserve medium armor.

Yes in Renegade, the standard armor of a Chinook was Light Armor. Most servers started adapting them to Medium Armor. It made them useful when doing infantry invasions from the air instead of getting shot down by a Ramjet before reaching the base.

[epicelite]

Ok I got it!

Damage falloff for ramjet VS vehicles.

[AkillerNXC]

Flying coffins...lulz. Still coffins. Always will be coffins.

[RoundShades]

Flying coffins...lulz. Still coffins. Always will be coffins.

I call them skeet shoot. I shoot the heli exploded, then I practice headshotting all the infantry before they fall to the ground...

...not really, I could imagine kenz3001 doing that, but I could never do that... maybe score a bodyshot on an engineer as he falls...

[AkillerNXC]

Used to be able to do it on old ren a decade ago lol, it wa funny. People would get so pissed. I played on black cell, which had parachutes and it was hilarious killing them all before they landed

[R315r4z0r]

Throwback to original Renegade's balance aside... it is definitely important to have a class like the ramjet be able to counter light armor vehicles... I just wish it wasn't the ramjet that did this.

Ramjets should demolish infantry as they do... but their damage vs light armor vehicles should be given to another class. Basically, split the Ramjet's effectiveness into two separate classes.

[epicelite]

Throwback to original Renegade's balance aside... it is definitely important to have a class like the ramjet be able to counter light armor vehicles... I just wish it wasn't the ramjet that did this.

Ramjets should demolish infantry as they do... but their damage vs light armor vehicles should be given to another class. Basically, split the Ramjet's effectiveness into two separate classes.

There is one, its called the Personal Ion Cannon and Rail Gun.

[yosh56]

Throwback to original Renegade's balance aside... it is definitely important to have a class like the ramjet be able to counter light armor vehicles... I just wish it wasn't the ramjet that did this.

Ramjets should demolish infantry as they do... but their damage vs light armor vehicles should be given to another class. Basically, split the Ramjet's effectiveness into two separate classes.

There is one, its called the Personal Ion Cannon and Rail Gun.

Ive already been off on this researched and number-heavy tirade: the PIC and Railgun both are terrible at killing late game light vehicles, since they do the same damage to heavy and Light armour, but still have an abysmal rate of fire. That, and they're pretty easy to just out-range with Artillery.

The more I think about it, the more Im just wondering why he bloody hell we need 2 sniper rifles in Renegade...All the Ramjet has EVER done is get flak as a n00b weapon.

[epicelite]

Its there so people with no real skill can feel good about being able to kill free characters in 1 hit from the other side of the map.

[RokumanZA]

I personally find nothing wrong with the Ramjet damage vs light armour. It is the light armour counter late game and really the only ideal anti air to keep orcas and apaches at bay. It has always been this way in the original Renegade as well and I feel it should stay the same here.

As far as vs infantry, I would say at most maybe add a half a second between shots? But really its not actually that op, and nothing a pic/ramjet cant do either... Also as far as free characters go I've taken out at least 4-5 saks with a marksman before so it can be done. I've also taken out many a sniper as a Sydney/Rav while on my way to take out vehicles. Overall maybe I would agree with a slight debuff but please nothing major, anything major would change the whole balance of the game as this class is vitally important in many different aspects of the game

[Handepsilon]

Ramjets are... kinda annoying tbh, but if timed right, and you know where he is, you can just bunny hop your way in zig zag pattern

Rav and Sydney are kinda overshadowed IMO. If they were supposed to be anti-vehicle, a lot of other characters can do their job better. Long range : I go rocket launcher (you really have 90% chance to hit) or sniper depends on armor. Med-Short range : Go volt rifle (5 heavy armor kills in a single life as Mendoza defense). Aircraft : definitely ramjet.

Or maybe I'm just too n00b to use it

[yosh56]

Oddly enough, went back and played Halo last night, as it is a surprisingly good example of high TTK infantry combat. Paid mostly attention to good people with the sniper, and I gotta say that the only difference the sniper in Halo has vs the sniper in Ren is slightly lower rate of fire, and no one hit kills to the body. This IS doable, and honestly you move slower in Halo so it's easier to get capped in the chest. Moral of the story, nerf a bit of its ROF (I put an exact number in an analysis of the Ramjet posted here) and nix this OHKO to free infantry in the chest. Ramjet has no logical progression of damage like the 500 sniper, it's just 1 or 2 shots.

Ramjets are... kinda annoying tbh, but if timed right, and you know where he is, you can just bunny hop your way in zig zag pattern

Rav and Sydney are kinda overshadowed IMO. If they were supposed to be anti-vehicle, a lot of other characters can do their job better. Long range : I go rocket launcher (you really have 90% chance to hit) or sniper depends on armor. Med-Short range : Go volt rifle (5 heavy armor kills in a single life as Mendoza defense). Aircraft : definitely ramjet.

Or maybe I'm just too n00b to use it

I already explained how Overpowered the PIC is the moment a group of people start focusing fire with them. 4 PICs out damage the Obelisk, have an instant projectile, and shoot faster than the Obelisk. Then we have the fact that PICs do all of that damage in a burst, and have enough range that they can usually not be outrun.

PIC and a Heavy pistol is possibly one of the most powerful combinations around.

Saw a GDI team take the entire field back with just PICs...eventually needed tanks to sustain, but that's what tanks are for. Also took and held the field with just a team of PICs back in old Ren. They're fine, even if they could use 15 more damage vs light armour to be able to kill Artillery in 1 magazine...