C4 ram with vehicules

[Chaos Yda]

Hi, ive been seeing in the past games people using C4 on Hummvee or Buggy and ram into enemy team tanks to destroy them in 1 shot, exemple a buggy with C4 cost 300 Credit while a Mammoth 1500, it can destroy it instantly which seem to be a bit op and game breaking in my opinion. I dont recall seeing people use that kind of strategy in the old C&C Renegade multiplayer or it was not allowed. I wish to know what the developper team think about using that kind of strategy in games.

[yosh56]

People did it in OldRen. It was a banned tactic for most servers however.

Vehicles laced with C4 are known as flaming vehicles.

[Handepsilon]

Ooooo

Jobless said it was only frowned upon sooo, yeah. Ok, you win this one, then Chaos

[RoundShades]

Isn't there many limiting factors in this? I think it is an honest use of a buggy, considering you can only stick 4 c4 per man on a buggy. The only OP thing, is other people sticking c4 to your veh. That being addressed, would be nice, while leaving the personal usage thing alone. Because the personal usage just serverely damages a single enemy vehicle, it can kill a mrls or arty but not a tank of any kind nor an apc all the way.

[Handepsilon]

You can stick C4 as many as possible, but you have to consider Mine limit too. EKT runs with high limit, so this is only possible there

Proxy also works, and also applicable to infantry. The drawback is most Proxy'd infantries will shoot themselves if the Proxy'er put mines on their face (guns hit yourself...) and you cannot get your orders registered in PT, which means only friendly can repair you. And then mines will mostly hurt you, but not to the point of killing in my case

Useful if your teammates want to farm, Svernorp from EKT didn't seem to comment anything despite the fact that our Proxy'er does lotsa survey votes about Proxy hats for Nod infantries

[Goku]

He is a new mod. Did you let him know it was an issue? One person cant see or monitor the whole map.

Also I dont allow flaming vechs, but i dont have a problem with people putting a few proxies or remotes on to punish SBH that try n steal your tank. With that said thou if it affects the base mines then I have a word and kick if it continues.

[Handepsilon]

That would be 3 of them (Jobless, Svernorp, and HesH, last one was listed as Mods). They were present when it happens. I even chased HesH when I was infantry proxy'ed. It was no issue probably because he killed me before I can blow him up, but I did blow Svernorp up with that tactic. I don't think HesH saw proxy or C4'ed vehicles (though I did leave proxy'ed HMW in Nod's base at Goldrush. I forgot if he rejoined or not.) Svernorp is the same case

We did use this tactic only when mines are surplus, so no team hampering in that case

[Handepsilon]

I've conducted a little research. Apparently 7 to 10 C4 can destroy a mammy. But the Buggy needs to actually hit the mammy, and the C4s have to be right on the front. If the buggy explodes upon enemy fire, the C4 will disarm itself, leaving the enemy tank that the buggy rams unscathed

This proves to be a very risky tactic. The success rate is 50/50

[Goku]

Hesh was a temp mod basicly when our normal staff isnt around ill mark people as temp mods that i feel are mature enough.

I dont really plan to get super tough on the proxys on the tanks etc unless masses people start complaining.

Game is ment for fun right?

[Truxa]

This discussion is a result of old renners playing by old ren rules (unwritten) meanwhile RenX has lots of non-renners starting to ren, not knowing the old ren rules.

I've seen a lot new players disregarding the "proper use" of mines solely for personal gameplay rather than team-based gameplay.

Leaving 2 remote C4s on your tank to prevent stealing is what I accept, but anything beyond that I find team hampering. UNTILL ofcourse, remote C4's are limited to 4 per person and are not affecting the mine limit.

Also, proxies on the front of the vehicle to run into an enemy tank and do serious damage is something ... shouldn't be allowed in any case!

I thought it was RvE who was placing those "proxy hats" but I'm not sure, I joined that Walls match a bit late. Crashed during an explosion early on Goldrush which flipped me off so I didn't return to continue.

[Handepsilon]

Truth to be told. I was one of the guy rigging flaming vehicles, but usually with proxy for my own Stank and other vechs. Rather pointless since it ain't that effective, except for ensuring infantry kills. Chaos brought this up when we argue about this on Walls today.

I don't see this as OP and game breaking because... well, you can only hit once at the cost of your vehicle. Flame Tank can even destroy Mammoth with ease if it's not backed up, and Flame soldier can actually take on a careless mammy. I consider it OP if you can destroy structures with it, which I was told not possible this way

I didn't know if it was allowed or not. I'm not from OldRen so I don't know how flaming vehicles actually results (can someone tell me btw? So we can do effect comparison). As far as I play, only few have complains (2, I think?) and including me, 4 people have applied this tactics, perhaps more. I did this out of boredom *shrugs* once in awhile, I want to do some unorthodox things

Anyway, yes Truxa, it was RvE. I guess we were too bored and too hampered on Walls (BAR vs Strip) Thus Proxy man's father was born (RvE got tech from Crate later on)

[yosh56]

RE: C4 RAM WITH VEHICULES

by Handepsilon » 08 Nov 2014 15:35

I've conducted a little research. Apparently 7 to 10 C4 can destroy a mammy. But the Buggy needs to actually hit the mammy, and the C4s have to be right on the front. If the buggy explodes upon enemy fire, the C4 will disarm itself, leaving the enemy tank that the buggy rams unscathed

This proves to be a very risky tactic. The success rate is 50/50

The success rate is only low on a map like Field where it would be difficult to traverse a lot of open terrain. On maps like Islands, it is very easy to just suddenly be too close to stop a 300 credit Buggy from blowing up a 1500 credit Mammoth in a half a second. If the mine-limit permits, this tactic is beyond overpowered. Techs and Arts are barely cool being about 1.5-1.8x cost effective against tanks while requiring some form of coordination. The last thing Nod needs is something that's 5x cost effective against tanks, and only requires one person to pull off. Even flaming infantry takes at least 2 people to work effectively, and it's nowhere near as game-breaking considering infantry aren't the fastest units in the game.

Tactics like this are fun in games like Battlefield where you didn't have to buy your tank or you can also one-hit-kill light vehicles. In Renegade, being 5x cost effective with virtually no skill required is just plain broken.

[RvE]

Lols, the wall match was hilarious. But I placed proxy hats on people because I was bored (I was wearing 4 remote on me because they deflect sniper shots), but I did not do it on games where we have all the buildings standing.

Well they should make a personal mine limit for remotes and c4. Because sneaking to Nod base with a hotty and remote it negates some mines on our base, making it a little risky. Especially remotes counts towards the mine limit.

C4 buggy? I remember it was Remote buggy. The driver get out and detonate the package buggy.

[Handepsilon]

I was wearing 4 remote on me because they deflect sniper shots

Wait... they did?

So basically both of you can't shoot each other

[Truxa]

I was wearing 4 remote on me because they deflect sniper shots

Wait... they did?

So basically both of you can't shoot each other

And this effect is gamebreaking and thus should be banned because of it!

Just immagine people doing this to deflect the shots! Well-placed C4's makes someone immortal, he runs in the enemy base and the C4's explode near the MCT by the person who placed them. WITHOUT anyone dieing!

How real is it to have C4's pasted on your body, run in like a suicide bomber and not die?

[yosh56]

I was wearing 4 remote on me because they deflect sniper shots

Wait... they did?

So basically both of you can't shoot each other

And this effect is gamebreaking and thus should be banned because of it!

Just immagine people doing this to deflect the shots! Well-placed C4's makes someone immortal, he runs in the enemy base and the C4's explode near the MCT by the person who placed them. WITHOUT anyone dieing!

How real is it to have C4's pasted on your body, run in like a suicide bomber and not die?

C4 doesn't do splash damage to buildings/MCTs, calm yourself. It has to be right on them to damage them. I honestly think it should be like this for vehicles as well, or at least reduced splash to vehicles so flaming vehicles aren't so freakishly powerful. I'm shocked people don't use them to break Field stalemates vs. GDI.

[Handepsilon]

Actually RvE died anyway and we didn't kill anyone with those C4, mainly because I had to stay in the Strip (I'd die anyway if I go out to keep an eye on him)

If you must know, Truxa, I wasn't immortal when Proxy'ed. And when someone covered me with C4 or Proxy, PT doesn't register my purchases while still allowing me to access it, thus this has its' drawback : You need someone to heal you, and your guns can't refill. Another thing is, you can actually kill yourself with your own gun if you shoot and had your face covered with C4 or Proxy. This might be the result of the gun projectile hitting yourself because it's immediately blocked by the attached explosives upon spawning. This might also means that you cannot disarm enemy mines (untesteed).

As a reminder, the proxy, while more effective in killing, also hurts yourself in this method, reducing your lifespan as mines blew in yoir body. Not to the point of killing somehow, but even if you can actually do damage to MCT, remember that you CAN'T shoot and should still take enemy's splash damage by the nature of HurtRadius function.

That said, I do agree that to make this legal, it has to be nerfed, especially for vehicles.

PS : We tried to. We still lose

[RvE]

Actually they deflect shots from ballistics not laser based or anything with tiny AOE. So it is stupid to place 200 remotes on someone to charge because they will easily die, yeah, they can die from proxy mines, from gunners or any character or vehicle with AOE.

But yeah it's gamebreaking in a sense that a 1000 Sniper shot deflect and you'll be like wtf, .

[RvE]

They should just remove the ability of c4 and remotes to deflect shots.

[Truxa]

Ok granted, perhaps I over exaggerated it a bit.

Nevertheless, I feel that this type of behavior, how small it is now, can grow into a bigger thing in such a way that others will try this as a standard tactic, even in maps with lower mine limits (TmX has different limit per map) This bothers the hell out of me when I am giving my 150% in defending that key infiltration spot with mines, only to discover they are disappearing due to this sillyness.

"Just remine then"

Well, it's too late if I have to remine everything, as the opposing team could have seen the weakness at which point, my attendance and keen eye is more needed on the spot than running around remining.

It's far easier (AND BETTER!!!) to mine up early, because there is no sniper danger and nor is there the SBH-nuke danger in the first 10 minutes.

Those mines that do blow because of engi rushes, is less of a fuss to replace than ALL of the mines

[Handepsilon]

They should just remove the ability of c4 and remotes to deflect shots.

Add that to the beta4 wishlist. Doesn't make sense for remotes or mines to actually block weapons in games

Ok granted, perhaps I over exaggerated it a bit.

Nevertheless, I feel that this type of behavior, how small it is now, can grow into a bigger thing in such a way that others will try this as a standard tactic, even in maps with lower mine limits (TmX has different limit per map) This bothers the hell out of me when I am giving my 150% in defending that key infiltration spot with mines, only to discover they are disappearing due to this sillyness.

Of course we only do this when the mines are surplus. we had about 15 or 20 on Walls and the whole Strip is mined anyway. If we try this in TmX, hard/impossible to do without team hampering

If for some reason some people start doing things like this again, I'm gonna record it, and add it to 'List of things to do in RenX when you're bored' and post it on YouTube

[Soylentgamer]

The fix that I see is to only allow C4 to be placed on targets that are enemy units. Simple and effective.

[Handepsilon]

I don't think it's as simple as it seems... see, enemies and allies share the same collision flags, same physics... so you can't solve it that way. Even a simple 'can't place in front of allies' won't do since the throw had small, but significant trajectory that can be manipulated.

The only way I see how is by removing any attached mines/C4 once it's on allies... but might create inconsistencies since enemy vehicles or neutral ones can somehow end up in your allies' hands

[Tarvin]

This topic brings back memories of abusing the hell out of mines (when it was allowed of course). Yes, I was one of 'those' players that would get bored with how a match was going and would recruit others on the team to proxy mine harvesters and any vehicle that went out of the base. Often it was for defensive purposes only, honest. But there is a downside to doing this. For every vehicle covered in proxies there's that many fewer mines to defend a base.

When the enemy team started mining their own vehicles we just switched to rushing undefended corridors while ours were mined again. It's all in how players go about things. I think a transport chopper was rigged once to clear the intended LZ. Think of an exploding rock dropping out of the sky.

Anyway, there is always the chance for players to abuse game mechanics. Even without proxies rushes can be done against expensive vehicles. Just load up a vehicle with free engineers with C4 already equipped. Rush the expensive target like a Mammoth Tank, and when the cheap delivery vehicle explodes everyone rushes and throws C4 on the tank. They die, the delivery vehicle is destroyed, but that tank is probably toast.

The hardest part of figuring out what to do about mechanics being tested by players like with C4 Rams is to do it in a way that doesn't break what they are supposed to do or more 'legitimate' uses like defending a harvester against walkers. I've got to say, fixing this one is tough and may involve something like if two vehicles have proxies on them, one from each side, the proxies exploding on both will partly cancel each other out. Think of it as a reactive defense system against rams. In effect, make a C4 Ram to protect against a C4 ram. Either that or have free meat shield characters move out in front of expensive vehicles to create a protective barrier.

Or an even better solution. Give tank rounds the ability to detonate C4 mines located on other vehicles. One shot from a tank at a charging C4 Ram will cause the ram to go up in smoke. Rams are defeated and mines aren't nerfed.

Personally, I think things are fine the way they are. A-symmetric warfare is one of the things Nod does. Rig up dirty tactics to use against the superior arms of GDI. Why not let the spirit of Nod's tactics be reflected in RenegadeX or allow GDI to simply throw it right back with tactics of their own?