Thoughts on GDI counterpart to SBH

[svett89]

EDIT: Sorry if I posted this in the wrong section! Just realised this probably should've gone in the General discussion forum. If so, could a mod please move the thread?

Just had a random idea earlier today relating to the complaints surrounding Nod having SBH and GDI not having anything comparable to it.

What if GDI had a Spy class? It could essentially work as the current spy crate minus the ability to not be shot by automated base defences. Additionally, it could make you always turn into a randomly selected free Nod infantry class (Flamer, Shotgunner, Marksman or Engie) so that Nod knew what to look out for. It would allow GDI to attempt some sneaky Ions, and would fit with their overall style since Spy units have typically been reserved for the "Western Superpower" faction in C&C games.

I know this would make GDI have more character classes than Nod, and probably is a really shite idea once other people pick it apart, but I just wanted to share some random thoughts.

[MajorLunaC]

Here's a listing of some other ideas that might work.

*Black Hand Cloak Equivalent for GDI

- Disguise Kit, but can be detected by Base Defense Turrets (svett89's idea, which sounds good)

- Camo or Hologram: A [sLOW] walking Rock, shrub, tree, etc. Maybe can also look like at least a Harvester, if not allied or enemy vehicles. You still can target the human just looking in that direction. Maybe you have to switch to walking mode (actual use for that). Maybe point at an object and have a no-clip hologram around you. Paper-mache or Hologram Projector.

- Texture Camo: Point at an object and it will apply the same texture to all of you, with no face or gun visible. Paint or ePaper.

- Sensor Jammer: Jams enemy sensors for Obelisk and base Turrets , rendering him immune to detection unless within a fair range of the Obelisk or Turrets (more like reducing sensor detection range for this unit). He will be very obviously visible though, maybe even extra-targetable (look even in a wide area around him and he shows up as an enemy target. Probably should be 1-time use, and only for 10-seconds (maybe just an item that can be purchased). Might still be too powerful.

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

I don't really think this is a good idea, to be honest. A central facet of Renegade X is the teams being unequal. Like RTSes, they aren't just mirror images of each other. They work with different strengths and weaknesses. Nod being what it is forces GDI to compensate in certain ways, such as never leaving a vehicle unoccupied outside of base.

Stealth Black Hands, Stealth Tanks and Flame Tanks are really the only things that make Nod viable as a faction. There's no reason to give GDI an equivalent to one of these and thereby further weaken Nod.

[MajorLunaC]

Hmmm... that is true. Even on characteristics alone, GDI is direct and straight-forward, while NOD is sneaky and deceptive.

It's just that I get the impression that permanent invisibility is a bit overwhelming. NOD can often get beacons inside bases, while GDI more rarely manages to get beacons into a base unless there is no Obelisk, or the team just slacks off. GDI more readily destroys through sheer brute force with tanks/mrls and Gunners.

The way I see it, if everyone on both teams were extreme pros, and did what they needed to, NOD would likely win by abilities alone. It's probably true that if any of these ideas were implemented, the entire balance of the game would shift, and much would have to change to rebalance it. However, these abilities are rather different than cloak, and would provide less advantages. You would notice a rock move if you look, or 2 Nod harvesters, although not the other vehicles (probably restrict to rocks and harvesters).

Maybe conditional counter-ability would be better, such as a short-range motion sensor that decloaks stealth. Of course, with strict limits: Line-of sight, short-range, max team limit, easily noticeable (large and blinking), easily destroyable, high cost, etc.

I really don't know, it's just so difficult to balance 2 significantly different teams. Maybe it would be best to try to model the RTS C&C games much closer instead, since there seemed to be even more balance in those games.

[ARC_trooper]

GDI can counter sbh by placing mines and actually patrolling the base. In maps like Whiteout its harder to spot and sbh or stank (should see tracks or some sort) but if you have 1-2 orca's patrolling the base they cant do shit. (since if they get out they get a rocket to the face)

Nod needs the stealth to compensate for gdi's firepower.

I do vote for the idea that you can "spot" an ion/nuke, which it shows up on the map and gets mentioned. That would help alot i think? And i like the idea that when Stanks hit someone they decloak for a few seconds..

[MajorLunaC]

I do vote for the idea that you can "spot" an ion/nuke, which it shows up on the map and gets mentioned. That would help alot i think? And i like the idea that when Stanks hit someone they decloak for a few seconds..

Absolutely! I do keep trying to spot the beacon, and then it's sometimes hard to select the building to spot. It would make telling others exactly where the beacon is easier, and is absolutely necessary in the emergency! It's hard to describe the location too. "WF Top, behind second stairs". It should have some 3D location systems on the voice call if possible and on the map.

[SFJake]

So basically if someone spotted it, an "arrow" would appear over it in real time so people could get to it easily.

I don't think that would be unfair since its the equivalent of proper communication.

By the way, I am TOTALLY for the stealth detector. Something that makes stealth visible at some range (and within line of sight of the detector). Can be destroyed. Something like that.

Otherwise, maybe a motion detector. Something that makes noise when it detects motion and alerts the team, without actually revealing the unit. Again, could be destroyed.

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make it possible to use Q on a deployed enemy beacon. It would put an announcement out of its location, such as "Beacon spotted on top of barracks!" or "Beacon spotted under stairs of power plant!" Might be difficult to implement, but I think something should be added, as there's no voice chat to conveniently share the location of the beacon.

[MajorLunaC]

Oops! Yeah, we meant Q when we said "spot". But the visual effects on the screen with an arrow would be good too!

But what concerns me a bit is that the voices heard in-game seem to be directly from C&C: Renegade (or else they sound almost exactly identical!). C&C: Renegade doesn't have those sounds. There's going to have to be a contest or something to find the best voices to add to the game. Even if they are unique, the added voices can be considered an Emergency All Points Bulletin to all units, a special system, plus a loud warning alert sound. Hopefully the entire voices wont have to be changed out for the sake of consistency.

As for the locations, it would probably need some extra work to add specific building zones for the specific parts of the building. Spotting (Q) an enemy in your base does give something of a reasonable location ("Enemy Spotted: Near the powerplant." I think it was).

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

There's going to have to be a contest or something to find the best voices to add to the game. Even if they are unique, the added voices can be considered an Emergency All Points Bulletin to all units, a special system, plus a loud warning alert sound. Hopefully the entire voices wont have to be changed out for the sake of consistency.

Have a contest like Mental Omega did for whoever can provide the best voices.

[ARC_trooper]

I was more thinking that the beacon gets spot it says "beacon located at powerplant" (or wf, hon, ref etc) It saves time to actually know the building It could get upgraded though, that it says "roof wf" or something or perhaps a beacon comming out of it. (a ray of light shining into the sky)

And if the beacon isn't located near a building you'll get "beacon located entrance/tunnel/etc" (and i think when its located outside of the base, thus not any threat you'll just get "beacon located"

Would be an usefull system

[Kriemhild Gretchen]

I was more thinking that the beacon gets spot it says "beacon located at powerplant" (or wf, hon, ref etc) It saves time to actually know the building It could get upgraded though, that it says "roof wf" or something or perhaps a beacon comming out of it. (a ray of light shining into the sky)

And if the beacon isn't located near a building you'll get "beacon located entrance/tunnel/etc" (and i think when its located outside of the base, thus not any threat you'll just get "beacon located"

Would be an usefull system

I'd like for it to be possible to hide the beacon to make it that much less probable the enemy will be able to find it, but its location should be announced when a member of the team finds it and Qs it.

[snipesnipe]

I don't think that having it say "beacon placed on the roof of the WF" "beacon placed under the second set of stairs of the bar" is a good idea. I haven't had a lot of play time on RenX yet because my computer was crapping out just trying to start itself, but I remember the days of Renegade when it would be getting down to the final buildings and sbh would place a nuke at the Refinery on Walls/Walls_Flying and the entire GDI team would have engineers running around and they always find it. Every.Single. Time. The match would last forever but that's what made it fun. You didn't have any hints. I could see if they reduced the time to like 10 seconds to disarm and when you heard the warning you had 15 seconds to find and disarm but otherwise this is not a good idea. There would be no point to beacons.

If it was something that absolutely had to be implemented, I agree that it saying the building that it closest to is fine, but dont give a 6 figure grid location or a flashy yellow arrow. That's just not fun for anyone.

[Handepsilon]

I think the arrow or mark should do well for Q. You know, Q is currently rather unreliable. For these reasons

1. Sometimes you spot something in the middle of the map, outside the base, and it says 'spotted 1 infantry/vehicle near a building', giving the impression that the enemy has already infiltrated the base when they haven't

2. At the very least, it should give out the type of the enemy. (eg. : 'Spotted 1 APC near Power Plant' or 'Spotted 1 Technician near Airstrip') at least that saves us from saying an 'APC inc', or 'Sakura/Havoc in tunnel', which as quick as it might, will still leave us quite vulnerable for a second

At least once you spot something and Q it, you should also give out its' current location, at least for a second or 2, whether in mini map or with diamond rectangle like seen by the guy who Q'ed it. Right now it only indicates the existence, but not really helping with the location of things

[RypeL]

1is a bug in B3 and will be fixed in B4. 2 will be added in B4. And Q giving out positions of things on the minimap actually happens i think ( though not for beacons. Having to find the beacon is part of the gameplay.)

[Handepsilon]

Ah, good to know

I gotta check minimaps more... I thought that happens when an enemy was on sight of friendlies

btw, quick question : How exactly do you Q multiple targets? At occasion I had teammates saying 'Spotted 2 Infantry near Barracks' and even rarer 'Spotted 2 Infantry near Barracks, 1 of them are SBH!!!!' (BTW, yes 'are')

[Truxa]

What I would like is if you "Q" a building to defend, it has a cooldown of a loooooooooooong while (atleast feels like it) to Q an enemy. For some reason I can't Q an enemy when I've Q'ed a building

[RypeL]

Ah, good to know

I gotta check minimaps more... I thought that happens when an enemy was on sight of friendlies

btw, quick question : How exactly do you Q multiple targets? At occasion I had teammates saying 'Spotted 2 Infantry near Barracks' and even rarer 'Spotted 2 Infantry near Barracks, 1 of them are SBH!!!!' (BTW, yes 'are')

Hold down Q then mark multiple enemies and then release Q.

[RoundShades]

1is a bug in B3 and will be fixed in B4. 2 will be added in B4. And Q giving out positions of things on the minimap actually happens i think ( though not for beacons. Having to find the beacon is part of the gameplay.)

No. I am entirely sure that I played a game and press Q on a beacon, and it called out "BEACON DISCOVERED AT WAR FACTORY" or something. So it already currently is like that. Since it is a Q command, it cannot be faked, if it is called out then it is legit shit.

Basically, trust that Q spot, over one called on a building spammed repeatedly. Ones spammed repeatedly can often be wrong.

[RypeL]

Yeah it gives out the text but doesent mark the beacons location on the minimap.

[RoundShades]

Yeah it gives out the text but doesent mark the beacons location on the minimap.

I NEVER knew this until the other day. However, I was shocked to find it did when I got curious and tried it. It works for both DEFEND and DISARM as well, unique text for each. EVERYONE should do it, NOBODY does.

[Soldieroffate]

Well, the Spy class worked nicely for Red Alert: A Path Beyond and he couldn't really do much aside from dropping A-Bomb Signal Flares. It would be nice if GDI has a Spy class that had nothing more than his sidearm for self-defense. Sure, it probably won't happen, but it's a thought.