Blackhands and Nukes Overpowered

[wolfrikku]

nukes need to cost more

make em 2500 credits

also add a proximity beacon to the engineer/hot-wire to allow detecting of stealth'd objects with in a certain radius the diaspora should be no larger then a MLS but you can carry up to 3

people really need to start thinking outside the box here they want it to be a clone of renegade and that game sucked there is huge potential in this project but people need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to gameplay

Yes people need to think outside the box and learn how to DEFEND!!!

[R315r4z0r]

nukes need to cost more

make em 2500 credits

also add a proximity beacon to the engineer/hot-wire to allow detecting of stealth'd objects with in a certain radius the diaspora should be no larger then a MLS but you can carry up to 3

people really need to start thinking outside the box here they want it to be a clone of renegade and that game sucked there is huge potential in this project but people need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to gameplay

There are quite a few things coming down the road that are too soon to talk about. This is just the first release.

Also, there is a difference between adding new things that enhance the gameplay and adding new things that do your job for you. Adding items that defend the base for you sort of defeats the purpose of teamwork. Sure, defending can be kinda boring... but if you wanna win someone's gotta do it.

[SFJake]

^^

Funny you say that, since that makes me think of airstrikes, which fits what you just said perfectly. (just a random note here)

[Legitsu]

if anything some counter-measures would enhance game-play by adding depth having pure invisibility never works in any game I am not suggesting some-kind of mini-map radar thing but a "beep" to indicate the presence of a cloaked unit

[R315r4z0r]

I was just on a game of walls and I spent it driving around in an APC in my base doing patrol loops. Along with my team, we thwarted 5+ nuclear beacons and I was able to cover them from SBHs and shield them from sniper fire.

As long as you have a dedicated defender, the threat is incredibly diminished.

[Ranger Albatross]

SBH nukes can effectively be controlled with one or two dedicated defenders on pubs. Just bring back the planting sound.

I really hope the developers don't listen to people wanting to change the core gameplay. It's fine the way it is!

And if 7 people SBH nuke, kudos to them for organizing it. In a smaller game, they've severely compromised their base defense, but if they can pull it off, they deserve to be rewarded for it.

[Ranger Albatross]

nukes need to cost more

make em 2500 credits

also add a proximity beacon to the engineer/hot-wire to allow detecting of stealth'd objects with in a certain radius the diaspora should be no larger then a MLS but you can carry up to 3

people really need to start thinking outside the box here they want it to be a clone of renegade and that game sucked there is huge potential in this project but people need to start thinking outside the box when it comes to gameplay

There are quite a few things coming down the road that are too soon to talk about. This is just the first release.

What do you mean? Are the devs planning to change core renegade gameplay completely? If they change it too much, I feel like my interest in it will dwindle.

[wolfrikku]

SBH nukes can effectively be controlled with one or two dedicated defenders on pubs. Just bring back the planting sound.

I really hope the developers don't listen to people wanting to change the core gameplay. It's fine the way it is!

And if 7 people SBH nuke, kudos to them for organizing it. In a smaller game, they've severely compromised their base defense, but if they can pull it off, they deserve to be rewarded for it.

Honestly if you miss the warning alerts I don't think a planting noise would help. If they added a planting sound it would have to be 1/4 of the area as the pinging sound you hear once its been planted.

[Daedhart]

SBH nukes can effectively be controlled with one or two dedicated defenders on pubs. Just bring back the planting sound.

I really hope the developers don't listen to people wanting to change the core gameplay. It's fine the way it is!

And if 7 people SBH nuke, kudos to them for organizing it. In a smaller game, they've severely compromised their base defense, but if they can pull it off, they deserve to be rewarded for it.

Honestly if you miss the warning alerts I don't think a planting noise would help. If they added a planting sound it would have to be 1/4 of the area as the pinging sound you hear once its been planted.

In the original Renegade, literally everybody could hear a full volume planting noise for the entire time a beacon is in the process of being planted by anybody (either team).

[R315r4z0r]

What do you mean? Are the devs planning to change core renegade gameplay completely? If they change it too much, I feel like my interest in it will dwindle.

I couldn't tell you if I wanted to since I'm just a tester and not privy to that information. But I do know there are plans for more types of tech buildings that will unlock new weapons and equipment, among other things.

[Ranger Albatross]

Oh. As long as they keep original renegade tactics and continue to make stealth powerful and fun to use.

[super_gsx]

I agree. There needs to be some NEW way to counter this. Think about it. Sure, you can have dedicated base defenders and engineers running around the GDI base disarming nukes and killing SBH's, but does Nod need that for their own base? Absolutely not. Nod shoots you before you even enter their base, because they can see you. This is very obviously an advantage of Nod over GDI. That doesn't necessarily mean that Nod wins more often because of this, but while Nod is out attacking the whole time, GDI is doing a lot more defending. That's not balanced, in my opinion. It just needs a little something more. Like a way for GDI beacon-carriers to infiltrate Nod bases more easily...

[ErroR]

This is only a problem on maps without base defenses. Add guard towers and turrets and problem solved.

[omega79]

i still not see any problem

get enough defenders and the "problem" is solved

[DrunkPunk]

Nod units sux, i hate to play nods, very bad units, not fun to play, and gdi are awesome, op units and anything is great, sad i prefer nods but playing gdi because of fun factor, nod is boooring.

Waiting for some ballance and new stuff, till then im not much active, my fav faction sux.

[wolfrikku]

I agree. There needs to be some NEW way to counter this. Think about it. Sure, you can have dedicated base defenders and engineers running around the GDI base disarming nukes and killing SBH's, but does Nod need that for their own base? Absolutely not. Nod shoots you before you even enter their base, because they can see you. This is very obviously an advantage of Nod over GDI. That doesn't necessarily mean that Nod wins more often because of this, but while Nod is out attacking the whole time, GDI is doing a lot more defending. That's not balanced, in my opinion. It just needs a little something more. Like a way for GDI beacon-carriers to infiltrate Nod bases more easily...

Actually GDI way of doing base assaults makes them more dangerous then nod. The problem is that most of the community is new and haven't figured out how to work as a team. With a GDI assault you have one warning and if the building they are attacking isn't mine, you have to stop them from even entering the building. Most of the time it would be a APC filled with hotwires. If I remember correctly a apc can carry 6 people counting the driver. Each hotwire carrying enough explosives to do 120% damage to building. That is a lot faster then the 40ish sec the nuke gives you. Yes you are likely going to get seen but one apc could take out 2 to 3, maybe all 4 building depending on how many nod are even in the base. And with no base defense that means nod has to kill the apc unless the driver jumps out.

And to be honest the only reason NOD relies heavily on the nuke is because it doesn't require a lot of teamwork if the base is undefended.

[XDCkilla]

Yeah they really need to remove the parachutes and keep it how it was and just fall to your death.

[Valor]

i still not see any problem

get enough defenders and the "problem" is solved

The problem is new players don't want to defend. Only the seasoned Renegade vets are willing to spend a whole game defending and there's not many of them playing Ren X.

As such, expect to see much more Nod victories.

[R315r4z0r]

I agree. There needs to be some NEW way to counter this. Think about it. Sure, you can have dedicated base defenders and engineers running around the GDI base disarming nukes and killing SBH's, but does Nod need that for their own base? Absolutely not. Nod shoots you before you even enter their base, because they can see you. This is very obviously an advantage of Nod over GDI. That doesn't necessarily mean that Nod wins more often because of this, but while Nod is out attacking the whole time, GDI is doing a lot more defending. That's not balanced, in my opinion. It just needs a little something more. Like a way for GDI beacon-carriers to infiltrate Nod bases more easily...

That's what they mean by "unique factions." The strategies working for one faction won't work or be available for the other. Making them even is just dumbing down the game.

Nod can stealth rush, but GDI can steamroll with mammoth tanks. There is no equivalent unit on Nod to the mammoth tank.

You gotta think outside the box in terms of strategies and tactics. Each faction has their strengths and weaknesses and it's what makes playing on each one so much fun. If both teams had the same units and same weaknesses, it wouldn't be very fun at all.

[Daedhart]

I agree. There needs to be some NEW way to counter this. Think about it. Sure, you can have dedicated base defenders and engineers running around the GDI base disarming nukes and killing SBH's, but does Nod need that for their own base? Absolutely not. Nod shoots you before you even enter their base, because they can see you. This is very obviously an advantage of Nod over GDI. That doesn't necessarily mean that Nod wins more often because of this, but while Nod is out attacking the whole time, GDI is doing a lot more defending. That's not balanced, in my opinion. It just needs a little something more. Like a way for GDI beacon-carriers to infiltrate Nod bases more easily...

Actually GDI way of doing base assaults makes them more dangerous then nod. The problem is that most of the community is new and haven't figured out how to work as a team. With a GDI assault you have one warning and if the building they are attacking isn't mine, you have to stop them from even entering the building. Most of the time it would be a APC filled with hotwires. If I remember correctly a apc can carry 6 people counting the driver. Each hotwire carrying enough explosives to do 120% damage to building. That is a lot faster then the 40ish sec the nuke gives you. Yes you are likely going to get seen but one apc could take out 2 to 3, maybe all 4 building depending on how many nod are even in the base. And with no base defense that means nod has to kill the apc unless the driver jumps out.

And to be honest the only reason NOD relies heavily on the nuke is because it doesn't require a lot of teamwork if the base is undefended.

Actually, Nod has the same option with APC and techs. Its one of the most effective early tactics in the game for both sides.

TBH, I dont think Nod relies on the nukes at all. 9 times out of 10, Nod will try to either shove arties up GDIs ass, or stank/flame rush. The majority of the time, the nuke is a tactic reserved for mid/late game when other tactics have failed.

[SFJake]

I've really noticed that some building have downright retarded nuke spots, the likes that nobody can really figure out nevermind get to in 30 seconds, let alone disarm them.

Doesn't help that people can just jump on ramps and avoid proximity mines very easily.

The entire roof nuke is really the one stupid thing about all of this.

[Chrifister]

I'm pretty sure the server we were on tonight was a little laggy but we got dominated by sbh and nukes in one game. Ten minutes into the game and three sbh planted one nuke in the war factory. They literally dominated the inside of the building and the nuke finally went off. Not long after, one was planted on the refinery. We took him down pretty quick after we discovered him but four of us couldn't get the nuke defused before this stupid 10 second limit. I suspect the laser rifle may be over-powered but am not sure. They nuked the remaining two buildings and won.

I purposely avoided certain servers in Renegade for this very reason. Sbh give Nod too much of an advantage on most maps with no guard towers. There were some exceptions like Islands and Walls where the two entrances to the GDI base were smaller. Even then I preferred to only play those maps on servers that had the secondary weaker defenses (gun towers) that could see black hands. Some servers you could rebuild those towers and some you couldn't but at least they were a line of defense for a while.

The argument that GDI has better armor is not exactly true. Many times I was able to hold the field with a light tank and stealth tanks are deadly when used properly. Not to mention the arty can dominate a battlefield. Then there's the argument that a good squad can defend a base but that's assuming there are an equal number of sbh trying to nuke. There may or may not be but you always need that squad just in case. This puts GDI at even more of a disadvantage because there are now less attackers.

[Soldieroffate]

GDI was always at a disadvantage, especially on maps with no base defenses. SBHs would inevitably get in without too much trouble, and their constant beacons would force your team to continually attack and defend at a steady pace. Nod still has their worries, but at least they don't have to worry about invisible people walking into their base.

Also, old Renegade's arty was even more powerful. There was literally no way to stop a well-supported column of them; which made games such as Field extremely unbalanced and one-sided at times. GDI could attempt to push out with 7 mammoths and they'd be flash fried in almost a blink of an eye due to the sheer damage that the arties are pushing out.

[SFJake]

I think thats why the item called Motion Sensor (which was seen in some videos in the items menu) should actually be added.

It really would help dealing with those stealth guys.

[Daedhart]

I've really noticed that some building have downright retarded nuke spots, the likes that nobody can really figure out nevermind get to in 30 seconds, let alone disarm them.

Doesn't help that people can just jump on ramps and avoid proximity mines very easily.

The entire roof nuke is really the one stupid thing about all of this.

^This

This is definitely my biggest issue. So long as SBHs can get to odd geometry on buildings that were never meant to hold a person, the problem will continue. I saw a beacon planted damn near horizontally on the WF's outside wall the other day.

[Ranger Albatross]

The major thing that Devs need to iron out is the glitchy beacon spots. I do think they need to make the beacon slightly larger too, and allow everyone to hear the planting noise.

[Harpoon]

It's really strange to me that ppl have that much problems with SBH. I never played the original Renegade and I'm still learning (although the learning curve in this game is not really that steep) but it's just the matter of defence. I once spend the entire game neither killing anyone or dying, just on repairing building, planting mines and disarming beacons. And I ended with second score on our team.

Actually mines are best defence against SBH. Just cover ramps to rooftops and some strategic places on few buildings (like the hangar on vehicle factory) and you'll reduce the amount of SBH greatly. I also found that Orcas are great for defending bases. They are great at destroying APC's have enough firepower to quickly kill the planter and if you hear a warning message you can quickly scan all buildings and get to rooftops faster than anyone (I have also yet to discover if you can kill someone by landing on him). That way you can effectively defend the base with just a few ppl.

And it's not true that GDI is more defensive team. Medium and Mammoth tanks are the most deadly ground units that can take down buildings on their own, MRLS have a lot of firepower and are excellent mobile SAM batteries and Orcas are IMHO much better than Apaches. Actually I'd say that GDI dominates on open battlefield and SBH are sometimes the only hope for Nod.