Recon Bike

[Gorilla]

Will you guys be adding the NOD recon bike in the later patches?

[Daedhart]

Considering it wasnt in the original Renegade and is kind of moot as long as the buggy exists, I doubt it.

[Gorilla]

Well, Renegade X also added lots of new elements to the game like Chinook gunner seats and airstrikes.

It would be a nice move to add it to the NOD's arsenal as their vehicles are fragile but they also have the same vehicle limit as the GDI do.

Yeah you're right it didn't make an appearance in the original multiplayer but it was there in the single player campaign [Havoc's chinook was shot down by a recon bike in the cutscene of mission: Deadly reunion] so I guess adding the bike can still be considered as lore-friendly.

[RoundShades]

That mission, sadly, is the only reason that asset is in the vanilla game TO be used. Same with that long-range missile chunker, and all of it's non-functionality.

Those vehicles could make a return to both sides as far as I am concerned. Just make them extremely fragile, more than capable of being destroyed by flamethrower-grenadier. So, they end up being personal transport to the frontlines with an added bonus of damaging a base until it's killed and then you go off tank repairing. Useful only when the team has the field.

[Valor]

I remember the Recon Bike being in the Moon map (forgot exactly what it was called). The missiles only worked well for long-distance targets, and the bike itself was really glitchy. Still, nothing beats a vehicle that's twice as fast as humvee/buggy.

[NoSoldier]

There never was a Recon Bike on a moon map honestly. Only modded. It had some flaws which was the reason why it wasn't included and these were connected to the engine.

[RoundShades]

It rendered poorly, didn't it? At that speed, it lagged on engine, especially on multiplayer.

Anyway, it is lore sound, isn't there one in C&C the overhead rts?

Yes, I believe you refer to C&C_Mars, which was modded. Jolly fun, still the recon bike was jumpy.

I still think it is good the devs to read this and take note, in case they ever want new vehicles. This is as close as one can get to adding something new that is old, which is what this game does best.

[Daedhart]

I remember the Recon Bike being in the Moon map (forgot exactly what it was called). The missiles only worked well for long-distance targets, and the bike itself was really glitchy. Still, nothing beats a vehicle that's twice as fast as humvee/buggy.

Oh yeah, I remember that map; it was fun. I still dont see the point of adding the recon bike to RenX, though.

If it is added, something should be added to GDI to counterbalance, but I really cant think of anything.

[RoundShades]

I remember the Recon Bike being in the Moon map (forgot exactly what it was called). The missiles only worked well for long-distance targets, and the bike itself was really glitchy. Still, nothing beats a vehicle that's twice as fast as humvee/buggy.

Oh yeah, I remember that map; it was fun. I still dont see the point of adding the recon bike to RenX, though.

If it is added, something should be added to GDI to counterbalance, but I really cant think of anything.

...the Recon Bike?

Added to both works.

[APB_ICE]

I remember the Recon Bike being in the Moon map (forgot exactly what it was called). The missiles only worked well for long-distance targets, and the bike itself was really glitchy. Still, nothing beats a vehicle that's twice as fast as humvee/buggy.

Oh yeah, I remember that map; it was fun. I still dont see the point of adding the recon bike to RenX, though.

If it is added, something should be added to GDI to counterbalance, but I really cant think of anything.

...the Recon Bike?

Added to both works.

That wouldn't make any sense though, since GDI never used Recon Bikes in Tiberian Dawn, and the very nature of their design and intended purpose completely goes against GDI's playstyle.

Personally, I think Recon Bikes for Nod would be a nice addition. Anything which makes RenX more like TD!

[Daedhart]

I cant remember much from Tiberium Dawn, but I seem to recall not liking it.

[NodCommander]

Talking about Renegade and lore is silly. Nod never had portable laser weapons. Or personal cloaking. GDI never had personal ion cannons either. Not to mention the very silly vehicle designs for Nod.

[Valor]

All the vehicles and buildings in the game were from Tiberian Dawn. Renegade added many infantry and weapons to keep things interesting. Apparently Nod also had a SSM Launcher which was actually in Renegade but not the multiplayer. Nostalgia trip: http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Tiberian_Dawn_icons

Tiberian Dawn was actually intended to be a lot more futuristic than it actually was. http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Tibe ... oncept_art

[RoundShades]

Yeah, that missile chunker thingy was the SSM launcher I meant.

Honestly, that SSM launcher was used in modded multiplayer too. I wouldn't mind that either. If anyone on the dev team ever thought of an appropriate way to implement it.

[havoc9826]

Heh, the Black-Cell servers' Dragonade mod made good use of the unfinished SSM launcher when we messed around after the Regulars vs. Moderators events. I have an old video here: 5CBqzjkE0Bc

The Renegade: Sole Survivor total conversion mod, however, actually implemented a properly-working SSM launcher. Too bad that mod never really went anywhere.

[XD_ERROR_XD]

actually, in TD, both GDI and Nod were capable of building the SSM-Launcher in multiplayer mode. this really is not a Nod unit in particular.

[Daedhart]

Talking about Renegade and lore is silly. Nod never had portable laser weapons. Or personal cloaking. GDI never had personal ion cannons either. Not to mention the very silly vehicle designs for Nod.

Aww, talk about a buzz kill.

Ill agree to let Nod have the recon bike if GDI gets an armored dinosaur with frickin laser beams attached to its head.

[HaTe]

The recon bike's mechanics do not fit the game's gameplay mechanics. Even in Renegade this was true.

Even the extra vehicles (sedan, pickup truck, chameleon) were too ridiculous to have as an actual vehicle option.

[R315r4z0r]

As far as I know there aren't any plans at all to include any extra vehicles in the game. I wouldn't say the idea isn't in the cards at all, but definitely not in this upcoming release and probably not for a while, if ever. But who knows? There might be a tech building that provides these sorts of vehicles in the future.

[Ban4life]

The recon bikes seemed to be next to useless. The rockets trajectory was weird, and their damage was sometimes not counted on short range. The vehicle itself was, as already noted, really buggy. Hitting something at speed meant that you could behave normally until a few seconds later you were facing the other way still from the collision. Because it was limited to a few maps, everyone took one and GDI trumped Nod most of the times on those maps. That is my experience at least. Like in TS, they have a strong payload and are physically weak, causing the proper hit and run tactics, but without other support doomed to fail.

It should not be in Renegade-X, as its effectiveness is less than a buggy. I would rather introduce a Humvee and a buggy with a rocket launcher or like more things from the franchise a machine gun and once every few seconds the possibility for a (strong) rocket. A 500 vehicle that can do more damage than the APC, but with light armor, less (or same) health and less transport capabilities. Maybe make it available by tech buildings like R315r40r says. I would think it a good addition to the game. But no recon bikes. I've had enough of those shenanigans and I think that in any form it isn't suitable to play.

[RoundShades]

They were only glitchy in renegade classic. Everything was to a degree. I mean, the oblesk didn't hit targets walking backwards firing at the ground, and the obvious solution wasn't to remove the oblesk of light from the game.

Most their glitches are fixed just with the unreal engine alone. It tracks shots with the server, not with the client with really latent server checks (caused the shots not registering and the buggy teleporting facing directions), and the balance numbers made it "cool yet useless" and you can't say the same happened with SBH just because everyone went SBH and nobody repaired tanks and sturctures, but with balance adjustments the recon bike can be a faster single person transport with a bit of end-damage for when it got you to the end of the field.

That is a redesigned purpose for it, and it is an obtainable build for it. The only question is will it or not, and if it is worth dev time or not. Really, it might not be. That is fine by me. As long as the idea itself isn't discredited.

[HaTe]

95% of renegade glitches were fixed in scripts/patches (including obelisk back walking).

Renegade tracked damage through the client and the server. Which port tracked these damages was dependent on the damage type.

The size of the recon bike is what plays the biggest factor in it being so glitchy. Ideally, it shouldn't be blatantly obvious where invisible vehicle blockers are located. It should be determined by the size of the space in proportion to the smallest vehicle width. If you make a vehicle that is that small, it would change all of that up. I'll give the example of doors on buildings. It should be obvious based on pure size alone that vehicles are not intended to go inside buildings (buggies/humvees going inside buildings had to be patched in renegade because of this), but with a recon bike...well the invisible vehicle blockers become obvious and spots vehicles never should go can be used or need to be patched. Just not really worth it all for such a small and generally irrelevant vehicle, honestly,

[Daedhart]

95% of renegade glitches were fixed in scripts/patches (including obelisk back walking).

Renegade tracked damage through the client and the server. Which port tracked these damages was dependent on the damage type.

The size of the recon bike is what plays the biggest factor in it being so glitchy. Ideally, it shouldn't be blatantly obvious where invisible vehicle blockers are located. It should be determined by the size of the space in proportion to the smallest vehicle width. If you make a vehicle that is that small, it would change all of that up. I'll give the example of doors on buildings. It should be obvious based on pure size alone that vehicles are not intended to go inside buildings (buggies/humvees going inside buildings had to be patched in renegade because of this), but with a recon bike...well the invisible vehicle blockers become obvious and spots vehicles never should go can be used or need to be patched. Just not really worth it all for such a small and generally irrelevant vehicle, honestly,

lol, I can see 3-4 bikes inside the PP running over engis and just obliterating the MCT. The Benny Hill song is playing in the backgroun.

[R315r4z0r]

People saying the recon bike in Renegade is glitchy aren't entirely accurate. Granted the bike physics in that game weren't really fleshed out all the way. The fact is that all of the recon bikes you played in on various fan maps were implemented and set up by the mapper. There wasn't a default "recon bike" setting. It all had to be crafted by the person who implemented them into the map.

So the bikes being glitchy isn't necessarily an accurate statement since there are technically no official playable recon bikes in the game. The ones that were there were put in by modders and it's the modder's version of the recon bike that was glitchy.

[Ban4life]

People saying the recon bike in Renegade is glitchy aren't entirely accurate. Granted the bike physics in that game weren't really fleshed out all the way. The fact is that all of the recon bikes you played in on various fan maps were implemented and set up by the mapper. There wasn't a default "recon bike" setting. It all had to be crafted by the person who implemented them into the map.

So the bikes being glitchy isn't necessarily an accurate statement since there are technically no official playable recon bikes in the game. The ones that were there were put in by modders and it's the modder's version of the recon bike that was glitchy.

So basicly you are saying that the glitchy bike isn't glitchy. It was glitchy because the modders made it glitchy. A glitchy glitch made by a modder is not glitchy in itself, making it not glitchy?

[HaTe]

It was glitchy because of the turn mechanics of the game. Can't blame the modders for that. The mechanics weren't made for a small 2 wheeled vehicle. You can edit_vehicle all you want and it would still be glitchy. The netcode also played a large role on this as well. Also not modders fault. Each server didn't edit the vehicle. Most used the default settings on the vehicle, for the record.

It wasn't just fanmaps, either. They can just as easily be added as a vehicle crate on any map, for example. The vehicle was glitchy because of the turn mechanics. The vehicle played awfully because of the invisible vehicle blockers became far too apparent and needed.

[R315r4z0r]

People saying the recon bike in Renegade is glitchy aren't entirely accurate. Granted the bike physics in that game weren't really fleshed out all the way. The fact is that all of the recon bikes you played in on various fan maps were implemented and set up by the mapper. There wasn't a default "recon bike" setting. It all had to be crafted by the person who implemented them into the map.

So the bikes being glitchy isn't necessarily an accurate statement since there are technically no official playable recon bikes in the game. The ones that were there were put in by modders and it's the modder's version of the recon bike that was glitchy.

So basicly you are saying that the glitchy bike isn't glitchy. It was glitchy because the modders made it glitchy. A glitchy glitch made by a modder is not glitchy in itself, making it not glitchy?

Pretty much, lol. All renditions of the recon bike in Renegade were all set up differently unless it was implemented into a series of fanmaps made by the same person.

But because there was no official recon bike in the game, there wasn't a need for them to really flesh out their 2 wheeled vehicle system.

[HaTe]

It had default settings once you installed the model into the server...server owners/map modders occasionally edited these, but most were exactly the same. It had presets in leveledit for the CNC prefix, just as other vehicles.

[Ban4life]

Well whatever the cause, the glitches could (relatively) easily be prevented in Renegade-X. With the better physics engine and better net code it would work. Still I think in terms of speed, weapons and usefulness it is not right in Renegade-X. Low health, long reload times and such for a decent chunk of credits make it a weirdly popular vehicle while it is strategically just a weak choice. Cranking up several features might help, but my opinion stays the same. It just doesn't fit enough for Renegade-X.

[HaTe]

The width is too small for renx, much like it was in renegade.

[Fr3EdOm]

It's extremely ironic to witness all of you presumably oldschool Rene players hopping on the negative bandwagon in regard to the Recon Bike. The Recon Bike is essentially the epitome of NOD's playing style. The vehicle embodies elements of stealth, speed, and low-profile / idiosyncratic characteristics that define the team's strategic forte.

More importantly it should be noted that the Recon Bike was officially in the singleplayer version of the game. It was placed into the multiplayer version by modification, but its specifications were indeed predetermined by Westwood. Unfortunately, the point system in singleplayer does not correlate AT ALL with that of the multiplayer. As an avid modder in the C&C Rene community, editing singleplayer maps for multiplayer (to be used in Wittebolx TDM server), I would frequently run into trouble with many of the weapons / vehicles available for use in the level editor. For example, there are singleplayer versions of every vehicle that can be spawned into a map that will either have a regrettably slow rate of fire (buggies / humvees / APCs) and contain inadequate amounts of health / armor / damage properties (all vehicles). Similarly, there are singleplayer weapons with rather awkward amounts of clip ammunition, in addition to the beloved repair gun that had an alternative right-click fire to cause damage to the enemy that just wasn't enough to justify using in multiplayer (without extensive modification, anyway). The Recon Bike is an example of a singleplayer vehicle with singleplayer specifications.

As previously explained by another user, the mapping community (not to be confused with modding) perfected the specifications (health / armor / rate of fire / damage / turning radius / speed) of the vehicle, only to be used in particular maps. I believe there were several with proper implementation of the Recon Bike.

Addressing the issue of its small stature and the possibility of entering buildings should not be of much hindrance to the developers. This is merely a logical assumption based on this incredible feat called Renegade-X...

Furthermore, I have seen no compelling argument to drop consideration for the NOD Recon Bike in Renegade-X. It has no significant potential to unbalance or change the dynamics of the game any more than an airstrike or other miscellaneous weapons now available for purchase. I would even venture to guess that the Westwood team, given an opportunity to spend more time on the multiplayer, would grant NOD the Recon Bike without giving it a second thought.

[HaTe]

As far as leveledit goes, it really isn't that hard to differentiate the SP units from the MP units if you know what you're doing...it's classified as _AI or _Player, and anything with a CNC prefix was added later to the game in the form of patches. The weapon editing would be under Weapon_Reconbike_Player for instance. It's actually really easy to navigate and edit so long as you understand the system. It has multiplayer settings just as any other tank does. It wasn't added to MP for the reasons I have previously stated.

Modders also editted the vehicle too...as a crate spawn. Some servers used an edited recon bike on stock maps as a crate drop.

Not sure what you could possibly mean in your 4th paragraph.

It's more of a "lol fun to ride but really the use in MP is awful" vehicle (like the sedan, pickup truck, chameleon, and SSM launcher)

To sum it up, it simply was a poor gameplay vehicle in renegade, which is why it was never in multiplayer. The same should be said about renegade x.

[Fr3EdOm]

The Recon Bike, along with every other vehicle has its own properties. Other vehicles, however, have both a multiplayer and singleplayer version, each with its own set of properties. The problem herein is the fact that the Recon Bike has ONE set of properties (designed for singleplayer) and never made its presence in the official multiplayer, ultimately an abandoned concept; not because it is a "poor gameplay vehicle". Aforementioned mappers took control of this forgotten vehicle and transformed it into its ideal state: a completely capable, agile, featherweight, attack / retreat multiplayer vehicle that serves its purpose. Any attempt to modify the vehicle without having the player download a new .mix file would lead to a glitchy and erratic driving experience, from what I remember. If I am mistaken, it only further proves my point that it was eventually given its full potential within the confines of the W3D engine.

Placing the Recon Bike in the same category as the sedan, pickup truck, and chameleon is a rather rudimentary observation, similar to that of most PC game reviewers giving Rene a bad reputation long after it was patched and heavily modified by the community. Your claim is illogical. Abandoned concept vehicle in game one (eventually modded to serve its purpose) should be overlooked during the recreation of game one on a new engine as game two, simply because of its shoddy introduction in game one.

[HaTe]

It is in leveledit as a MP and a SP vehicle. Not sure what version of leveledit you have or if you just didn't ever download the right things, but there is an _ai and a _player recon bike in leveledit....

You're wrong that modifying it without a download would make it be glitchy. For one, you can even edit a vehicle in-game (console edit_vehicle). For two, its in leveledit and is already a model in renegade by default. You can join in a server with a recon crate option and get that recon bike and drive it perfectly fine without any downloads or even scripts/core patches installed.

I don't believe you know what you are talking about too much on this subject, from the sounds of things...

It's the concept of the vehicle that doesn't work. It could be completely unglitchy and work perfectly as intended and still be an awful gameplay vehicle. The game is not meant for a small 2 wheeled vehicle. Look at the maps and the structures. It should not be possible for vehicles to fit into tunnels, buildings, and be able to avoid vehicle barricades. Having something like this would make the location of invisible vehicle blockers very apparent, and thus make the visual and gameplay side of the game look poor. Please, if you want to say something worthwhile that would fix that, then be my guest. Simply saying nothing with plenty words is not helping anything. I'm sure most of us here see through that by now.

[Fr3EdOm]

Been quite some time since leveledit was installed on a computer of mine. In any case, there is a reason the Recon Bike didn't make it into the official C&C Renegade multiplayer: abandoned concept vehicle.

Therefore, the only pseudo-logic you can pull out of your ass is the fact that vehicle barriers would become readily apparent. That being said, there are plenty of locations that a buggy or humvee should be able to fit through without problem, yet simply cannot. There are areas of certain maps that various tanks should have no problem entering. Consider areas in Field, like the walkways leading up to the waterfall and the areas behind each bunker. In addition, picking on Mesa and Islands in particular, vehicles can enter particular "infantry" areas without problem. Whether or not this is intentional is beyond me, as well as the fact that you're troubled about the thought of a slightly smaller vehicle with the same inhibitions as every other. And still, you hear no one moaning. Not a single soul complaining over this incredible loss (or addition, for that matter) of land to roam freely, not to mention the visual eyesore that begs the retina to leak an unsightly red color.

Here's a thought: continuing innovation in map design. Just another thing that the devs should be seriously commended for (no sarcasm intended). Perhaps this is more of an inherent topic of debate that needs to be addressed, rather than the possibility of a "small two wheeled vehicle" causing a scene.

People really fucking enjoy freedom. Even if that means taking it away from them with a message saying "Return to Battlefield" or plunging to one's own death just for the hell of it. But above all, people respect the limitations that must be placed upon them for the sake of gameplay. As previously mentioned, buggies and humvees have plenty of locations that they should be able to enter (not even a squeeze, but simply enter), and cannot. People understand this. Your argument is about as piss poor as this rubbish statement:

It's more of a "lol fun to ride but really the use in MP is awful" vehicle (like the sedan, pickup truck, chameleon, and SSM launcher)

Do us all a favor and take a stroll through Islands, Mesa, Field, Lakeside, etc with whichever vehicle you please and come back to this thread to report your findings.

[Ban4life]

I think HaTe's point is aimed at the recon bike to be able to enter nearly every building and crevice it can find, if not for the vehicle blockers. Other vehicles are very limited in their access to any buildings or other openings by objects, so it is only apparent of a select few, making it much less of a problem. A recon bike easily entering any structure or tunnel can create serious abuse.

Vehicle blockers have been discussed years earlier and the dev's already had thought about it. They would implement more objects before vehicle blockers to make the blockers obsolete or at least less apparent. This might not have been done in all maps (islands shows no such blockers in the trailer that I can see, probably for balance issues to still be able to fire into the tunnel), but for most. So it might not have been a too big of a problem in Renegade, but they did not want this in Renegade-X. This makes the recon bike a pain for mapmakers, as they suddenly have to take into account for a small vehicle that might be able to circumvent security. Security that is meant to prevent abuses like too easy access to a base or driving around in a building killing everyone. They would be forced to rethink the whole map to make it balanced again.

Other gameplay issues arise. It is a relatively weak vehicle in both damage and health and is not at all perfect. It takes up one vehicle slot, while not being very effective. Why would you have a quick vehicle that has anti vehicle rockets, but deals so little damage before being easily destroyed? It's hit and run tactics, even if successful, will hardly make a dent on health when normal tactics with engineers involved. Any normal tactic will yield more damage and longer life than a recon bike, making the recon bike a fun/abuse only vehicle for me. Possibly an expensive transport to be destroyed then arriving at a location.

Even if you remove these problems, it would be a vehicle I consider not right for Renegade. Just like we don't put the Redeemer of UT in here, or a functional SSM launcher. It just doesn't fit in the game style. This vehicle just has weird properties, starting from its size, speed and payload, that all together just don't fit in Renegade or Renegade-X. This is even though I agree that it is the epitome of Nod play-style from the C&C universe, together with the stank.

And even though my next argument is moot, Westwood thought that the recon bike wasn't even right in the SP, so they only put it in one cut-scene and not in the game. They created it with purpose and saw it would create too many problems. This makes it officially not in the game.

Oh and please structure your arguments more. It's really hard to understand you. Swearing is also not something that is promoted.

[HaTe]

^Pretty much.

Stop using every fallacy in the book. Saying that the problem already exists to a minor degree, and so making it much worse shouldn't matter is probably one of the one worst arguments you can possibly make. I'm aware of the current vehicle blockers in renegade and renegade x. I've been playing since the release, modding for 7+ years, playing competitive for the same amount of time, and have been a scripts beta tester as well. Pretty sure I know enough about the game, and I find it "extremely ironic" that you think you know more, when you clearly never even learned how to use LE properly. I only used it for damage calculations mostly and I know how it works better than you, apparently.

Once again, you can stop saying so little with so much words anytime now. I can get across your point better than that with half of the words. This isn't English class, this is a renegade debate. I'm not looking to grade you, so there's no need for you to waste your time with big words. Believe it or not, I'm in my 3rd year of college now and can easily understand you and reply in the same manner. Sociology teaches you to know your audience in a debate. There is no need for the annoyance of trying to seem so incredibly clever when what little facts and evidence your words are trying to support are wrong from the start. I'm reading this and typing this from a 7" tablet. Save me the pointless scrolling.

[Ban4life]

HaTe stay cool, I know you can .

Don't draw each other out. Its a already heated discussion of favour and non favour without personal tension.

And yes no Fallacies please.

[HaTe]

Haha don't worry, I'm cool

Not looking for this to get personal, but it irritates me when someone that claims to know what they're talking about is actually completely wrong, yet that same person tries calling out the person who is right. I'm not a narcissistic guy, but when what I know to be fact is questioned by the off-balanced opinion by another, well...it irritates me. I am calm, cool, and collected though, no worries. I just like to prove my point in a definitive way

Weapon_ReconBike_Ai 1134 1 0.5 2 0 0 1 0.1 0,000000, 0,000000, 0,000000 0 1 0.1 -1 0 1

Weapon_ReconBike_Player 409610055 1 0.5 2 0 0 1 0.1 0,000000, 0,000000, 0,000000 0 1 0.1 -1 0 1

Ammo_ReconBike_Rocket_Ai 2727 0 always\weapons\ammo\tracers\rocket launcher\ag_rocketl,w3d 6 10 150 35 50 0 0 0.25 0.087266 2 1 0 1 0 2.094395 0 1 1 0.05 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 0 0.3 0.25 0 1,000000, 1,000000, 1,000000 0 0 1 0 1

Ammo_ReconBike_Rocket_Player 409620084 0 always\weapons\ammo\tracers\rocket launcher\ag_rocketl,w3d 6 10 150 35 50 0 0 0.25 0.087266 2 1 0 1 0 2.094395 0 1 1 0.05 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 0 0.3 0.25 0 1,000000, 1,000000, 1,000000 0 0 1 0 1

The ironic part is that the ai recon bike (sp) is the same as the player (mp) recon bike, because the vehicle was never intended for mp because of its size. So for him to claim that it had to be edited at all is wrong. Saying that it was hard to distinguish between the 2 is also false. They're the same by default in LE, but with different capabilities (player vs bot).

[Fr3EdOm]

Let's quickly recap everything that you both consider to be troubling about the Recon Bike. I will attempt to dilute my vocabulary to avoid any unnecessary intimidation. It's just the way I type, brah.

1. C&C Renegade Properties of Recon Bike (health / armor / speed / turning radius / damage / rate of fire / etc) - Irrelevant. Can be edited and amended along the way in Renegade-X to produce a formidable combat vehicle.

2. With vehicle barriers already in place, there is no exacerbation of the problem. It may or may not be a greater issue at hand, to detect and relocate vehicle barriers to allow more freedom on wheels. Prefabbed team structures should contain vehicle barriers to begin with. It's quite obviously subjective and will have to be addressed by the beta testers directly. You're arguing based on the presumption that you are correct, without question.

3. While I can understand your reasoning, I simply do not agree with it. There is no fallacy in my argument. There is however, ad hominem and shamelessly cherry-picked statistics in your own.

[HaTe]

1. Not irrelevant. Let me ask you this, what differences would you create between the renegade recon bike and the renegade x recon bike if there was one?

2. The vehicle barriers already in place are in proportion to the current smallest vehicle width in renegade. Make a smaller vehicle and make more vehicle blockers. It is a pretty simple calculation. It is also about the blatancy of these blockers. They are put in because there are many spots that should be only infantry, obviously (for gameplay purposes). They aren't meant to be completely apparent, except to those who wish to attempt to wiggle their way into an infantry only location. Having a smaller vehicle would mean that these become much more apparent (and it means that much more need to be added). It looks bad, it plays bad, and it is not needed just so that a vehicle like the recon bike can be added to the game. I am arguing based on experience in renegade, and with knowledge and experience that these aspects work the exacxt same in renegade x. I'm not presuming anything here.

3. How can you say I am using ad hominem in the slightest? Pretty sure i havent said a word about you, your reputation, or even mentioned your experience. Cherry-picked statistics? You do realize that this implies that I ignored some other form of data in order to only use the data I did, right...?... You must mean factual statistics that are relevant to the discussion? Because I'm yet to see any statistics at all from you, yet mine came directly from LE (which makes it impossible to refute since that was that argument...). If you really want to discuss falacies with me further, then do so in a pm. Every argument contains some form of fallacy from both parties, and you denying that you have committed one was just me proving my point. I have committed a few myself, but they are in fact not the ones you accused me of. Let's try to stick to the topic at hand in order to avoid any ad hominem, shall we?

[Ban4life]

I will attempt to dilute my vocabulary to avoid any unnecessary intimidation. It's just the way I type, brah.

I was concerned about the structure of your arguments, not the vocabulary. Although they do help if you just keep the text simple. Or as Einstein allegedly said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." Although I hope to aim at a more clear argument, as you need to convince a lot of people. Most of these people aren't native speakers, and neither am I.

1. C&C Renegade Properties of Recon Bike (health / armor / speed / turning radius / damage / rate of fire / etc) - Irrelevant. Can be edited and amended along the way in Renegade-X to produce a formidable combat vehicle.

So lets put a big gun on a sedan! That vehicle was in the extra's, so it's obviously meant to be used! Even mapmakers made them available without the cheats! The properties can be edited (health / armor / speed / turning radius / damage / rate of fire / etc), so they are irrelevant. They can be edited and amended along the way in Renegade-X to produce a formidable combat vehicle!

But my point was actually that the recon bike doesn't fit with the current arsenal in its design, just like the sedan above would not fit in there.

2. With vehicle barriers already in place, there is no exacerbation of the problem. It may or may not be a greater issue at hand, to detect and relocate vehicle barriers to allow more freedom on wheels. Prefabbed team structures should contain vehicle barriers to begin with. It's quite obviously subjective and will have to be addressed by the beta testers directly. You're arguing based on the presumption that you are correct, without question.

It's kind of what I said already, only more from your viewpoint. I said it can present a problem. I think and feel that many people will not like it and I myself definitely don't. I would agree to some new maps that are made specially with also the recon bike in mind. I'll explain more at the end of this post.

But I never said that I assumed that I was correct. I always stated viewpoints or discussions that already have passed. Read carefully before you argue these kind of things. It only makes people guarded and you'll never get your point across.

3. While I can understand your reasoning, I simply do not agree with it. There is no fallacy in my argument. There is however, ad hominem and shamelessly cherry-picked statistics in your own.

You are free to not agree with it. I'll try to argue and reason with you to convince you otherwise, but I don't expect much effect.

Attacking me personally again is not something I like. The only offence I might have given you, is commenting on the structure of your arguments. Also I don't use statistics as I don't have them. Neither do you. All my arguments are reasoning (Smaller model=easier access=abuse/vehicle barrier visibility) with my considerations and thoughts attached to them. I make the abuse part big in my thoughts, as it's something that has happened and I really don't like.

Now for the topic. How I would make the recon bike work, albeit in maps with the recon bike in mind.

The new turrets that you can man are very interesting. The rocket tower has 12 small homing rockets that it can fire. You could increase the power of the recon bike with this, while increasing the reload time to make it a true hit and run vehicle. Then you put the total health on 300, like the Humvee, as well as the Humvee's light armour.

Put the price at 800, same as the flame tank, and you might have a vehicle that is useful while keeping to it's nature. It is priced quite high, as it's high mobility and small size present a hard target and gives new tactics to pursue. A lot of them involving quick infiltration and possibly evasion of base defences. So it is overpriced in damage and health, but the addition of speed and turning open a lot of tactics. The price is also high to avoid too many people taking it, so you get a balanced team with decent fire-power. All in all, it would serve as a quick single person transport, infiltrator, long range quick attack and return damage dealer or rusher for those moments that you have to attack really quickly while doing a lot of damage on entry of the battle zone.

I could see this work in specialised maps. Not in the current maps though, it would f*ck the balance up. Also what does GDI get in return? Not another recon bike I hope.

[Fr3EdOm]

Note: Ban, you literally just poke your head out of the woods during our little debate and now you feel entitled to a side discussion, lol (only kidding). No personal remarks were directed towards you and I think I speak for everyone when I say that your input is certainly appreciated.

1. The ideal Recon Bike would be comprised of these essential features: similar health / armor of buggy, dual rockets mirroring that of the Stank with a slightly faster rate of fire, and the perceived speed / handling capability of a motorcycle allowing relatively easy evasion from a humvee (to put it in perspective); all of this with a pricetag of 700 credits, making it double that of a buggy. Of course, all of this is subjective. Ban makes a very good point in that abuse would be rampant without requiring players to fork over a decent chunk of credits. I don't see this causing any siginificant imbalance, even on existing maps, and would thoroughly enjoy beta testing this in a closed environment at some point during the open beta. Now because I am a man of equality, in return, every GDI player will receive a complimentary Chameleon!

We need more of this type of progressive thinking in this thread:

Now for the topic. How I would make the recon bike work, albeit in maps with the recon bike in mind.

The new turrets that you can man are very interesting. The rocket tower has 12 small homing rockets that it can fire. You could increase the power of the recon bike with this, while increasing the reload time to make it a true hit and run vehicle. Then you put the total health on 300, like the Humvee, as well as the Humvee's light armour.

Put the price at 800, same as the flame tank, and you might have a vehicle that is useful while keeping to it's nature. It is priced quite high, as it's high mobility and small size present a hard target and gives new tactics to pursue. A lot of them involving quick infiltration and possibly evasion of base defences. So it is overpriced in damage and health, but the addition of speed and turning open a lot of tactics. The price is also high to avoid too many people taking it, so you get a balanced team with decent fire-power. All in all, it would serve as a quick single person transport, infiltrator, long range quick attack and return damage dealer or rusher for those moments that you have to attack really quickly while doing a lot of damage on entry of the battle zone.

I could see this work in specialised maps. Not in the current maps though, it would f*ck the balance up. Also what does GDI get in return? Not another recon bike I hope.

2. Perhaps I should type in all caps in order to redirect the point that is continuosly going right over your head. There are many vehicle barrier locations where "wiggling" is not required. It is a safe assumption to make that the majority of these locations would otherwise be more than capable of accepting various tanks. You're under the impression that the present barriers will not block a vehicle of such a small size, when it appears to be a basic invisible wall specifically for vehicles that stretches a desired length. Seems to be no potential addition or exacerbation, just a continuation of necessary gameplay elements such as the use of vehicle barriers.

3. There were several instances of pinpointing my poor recollection of an old editing program designed for a different game entirely, detracting from the actual debate revolving around why the Recon Bike will or will not work in Renegade-X. I never have and never will claim to be a leveledit guru, relying only on memory and immediately accepted your accurate rebuttal about the bike's opposing properties. Your Recon Bike specifications were simply unnecessary and only present to further disprove what had already been established by a previous statement of yours. All of this done after the fact, just to place yourself on a pedestal as if leveledit experience were to somehow support your argument against the Recon Bike being implemented in Renegade-X.

#FallacyFreeFriday

Edited February 12, 2014 by Guest

[HaTe]

Edited because I feel both points have been made, and I do not wish to continue saying the same thing over and over again for no reason.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Guest

[IllumZar]

I find the idea of an recon bike pretty cool, since it was in TD I think it should somehow make an appearance in RenX.

But maybe not for a specific side. There should be an capturable techbuilding (like an abandoned Nod-warfactory, or a chrashed cargo plane?) which has a limit of 3 or 4 bikes at the same time.

Like the silo techbuilding it has no gamechanging role, it's meant to make the gameplay more fluid(?).

and... please don't RespektSchelle me for my bad english

[RoundShades]

Ohh. A tech building unlocking production of recon bikes for it's team. Sounds pretty gnarly.

Then, just buff them a bit. Make them as fast as humvees, as offensively strong as stealth tanks, maybe either "enough" armor not to die right off in confrontation or possibly even stealth (imagine GDI with stealth, oh hotcakes)

[IllumZar]

What do you think is best?

Giving GDI a dumbass humvee with a TOW as a counterunit like in several Renegade mods/servers?

If the recon bike will be added a techbuilding is in my opinion the best solution.

[Ban4life]

What do you think is best?

Giving GDI a dumbass humvee with a TOW as a counterunit like in several Renegade mods/servers?

If the recon bike will be added a techbuilding is in my opinion the best solution.

Or just not add it? Add a different unit all together than a recon bike might solve a lot of the problems and concerns a lot of people have. Put a tech building where they can buy first generation laser/railgun tanks or something. I would also prefer the Humvee with a TOW missile to the Recon bike. A recon buggy even.

@BroTranquility If you put any vehicle there that has one of the team's strengths like stealth it would be bad. Nod has stealth an no other. Just like I would not give any ion based units to Nod this way. It's not really "natural". I remember servers with stealth crates that made the next vehicles you got into stealth. Ever seen mammies come out of nowhere and crush everything? I've been on both sides of that coin, and it's really awesome for a few games, but then the fun is over. Nod has SBH and Stanks and that should be it in stealth.

[IllumZar]

Or just not add it?

Thats why I added the "If".

But anyway if it concerns so many people they could just add the microwave tank for nod and the xo powersuit for gdi, those are completly different units that would cause horrible imbalance and more problems, even tho they weren't in the original TD (i think).

laser/railgun tanks

btw i cant remember any of those tanks.

correct me if i'm wrong

[RoundShades]

Maybe I am the only one that thought it fully awesome all the time.

Also, it isn't so bad if balanced. Even if it only had one teams specialty or the other. It would naturally balance differently for both teams, because it would give Nod no new ability but faster to deploy firepower against the slow gdi tanks, and it would give GDI some new field ability but no damage they couldn't already do.

Heck, the real tricky thing about this game, is that if you add ANYTHING, you are ruining authenticity. Really, the recon bike and ssm are the few only things that possibly avoid this problem. Otherwise, I don't think it's noteworthy to expect a new vehicle or character in vanilla RenegadeX. There is always Reborn when/if it ports?