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So a rather long time ago now I posted on a forums an idea about a rather large mod that included several game enhancements to Renegade. It appears as if the majority of the enhancements that I suggested are actually going to be put in Renegade X by default (by coincidence). This is excellent news to me as all of my suggestions/ideas were very well thought-out and researched, and I cannot wait to play the game. That being said, there are some rather neat ideas that I had that are not in Renegade X, so I figured I might as well post them and get some opinions on them at the very least. Based on what I have seen of this community so far, I think that many of you will appreciate the ideas.

Click the spoiler button below to view the ideas.

1. Edited repairing units in Renegade:

Instead of each team having one infantry option for a strong repair gun, I thought up of something a little bit different (since hotwires/technicians are almost always the most used character in the game, and honestly a bit OP when it comes to repairing). The idea actually came from Planetside 2's character system, which really works well with that game. Obviously I edited it up a bit so that it would work with Renegade - but here is the general idea:

Two Hotwire/Technician options for each team. Both cost the standard 350 credits.

(To give you perspective - the weak repair gun (engineer) in Renegade does -2 damage, and the strong does -4 per second to everything).

One will be infantry/mine/beacon repairing based - doing damage equal to that of the current strong repair gun (-4 per second) to all infantry units and beacons, and doing -5 damage per second to all c4s/mines. To buildings and vehicles, however, this unit's repair gun only does -2 damage per second . The character will then also have: 3 remote c4s, but after laying 2 there is a 5 second reload time in order to lay the third one; one timed c4; a pistol; and the default proximity mines.

The other will be vehicle/building repairing based - doing damage equal to that of the current strong repair gun (-4 per second) to all buildings and vehicles, and doing -5 damage per second repairing any building, but not when repairing the MCT (so when targeting the actual building). To infantry, mines/c4s, and beacons, this unit will do -2 damage per second. The character will then also have: 2 remote c4s; 2 timed c4s; a pistol; and a new set of anti-tank mines that are limited per player (rather than per team) at 3 per player. These mines don't count against the mine limit for the team in anyway, and instead are limited solely at 3 anti-tank mines per player. These mines are designed to explode only when a heavy unit (vehicles, not infantry) goes over them. They each do 55 damage to any vehicle (proximity mines do about 30), but cannot be put within 3 yards of each other - if this happens, the mine trying to be laid down will automatically disarm. This is to try and help the fact that proximity mines are pretty useless against tanks as is.

2. More explosives:

Lets just think rationally here; the fact that there is a grenade launcher in the game, yet no toss-able grenades is a bit concerning. It's no secret that infantry have a hard time moving about in Renegade for the most part, because of tanks, and snipers hugging the walls. So why not add some explosives to help mix it up a bit in battle? The fact that the Renegade X team added in a new purchase terminal option named Items is the perfect way to introduce this into the Renegade gameplay:

(Note: Limit of 1 maximum grenade per character. Not refillable; have to repurchase to get another one).

- Smoke Grenade - $150. Does exactly what you think it would do. Sends out a medium sized cover of smoke for 6 seconds upon its explosion. Both teams have to bear the smoke. Good for tunnel rushing, nuke defending, escaping mid-battle, etc.

-Frag Grenade - $100. Works like a single twice-as-powerful grenade launcher grenade, but instead of exploding on impact, it rolls around a bit in the general direction of the closest enemy and explodes 3 seconds after it is thrown. Good to make those wall huggers have to retreat temporarily.

-Sticky Grenade - $150. Works exactly like the frag grenade, except it doesn't roll and it will also stick to vehicles. Explodes 2 seconds after impact instead of 3.

-Tiberium Grenade -$200. Works just like the smoke grenade, except that any infantry unit (besides chem warrior) inside of the tiberium smoke will receive 20 damage per second (includes yourself). Lasts for 5 seconds instead of 6 (maximum of 100 damage dealt if anyone remains inside it for the 5 seconds). Perfect for defending your beacon or c4s on a MCT, or for taking control of the tunnel.

-EMP Grenade -$300. Works like a sticky grenade in that it has to be thrown at a vehicle and stuck to it in order for it to take effect. 2 seconds after impact, it will make the targeted tank (and that tank only), not be able to move (still has ability to shoot) for 4.5 seconds. Perfect for stopping that early game APC rush - so long as you can get close enough to it to hit it with the grenade.

-Tactical Insertion -$60. Insert one of these bad boys into any desirable purchase terminal, and have your next spawn be at that purchase terminal (and your next spawn only). Good for people who get sick of spawning in the building farthest away from the field, or for people looking to get a quick spawn exactly where they want to spawn (for competitive players).

Note that all prices would obviously be subject to change after thorough testing. It's just a relative price that theoretically sounds reasonable.

3. Activated Stealth Mode:

Okay, lets just be honest here. Stealth units are fun to use in Renegade. They're also completely overpowered in many ways (3 SBH timed c4 rushing a MCT for example). To counter this, and make the noob-friendly unit take more skill to use effectively, all stealth units now have activation and deactivation modes. The idea is simple: 35 seconds of stealth activation, followed by 7 seconds of deactivation. In other words, 35 seconds of stealth, followed by 7 seconds of non-stealth. The 7 seconds is the time it takes for the 35 seconds to recharge, and for your stealth ability to kick in again. Shooting restarts the 7 second countdown automatically. This will likely help solve the general over powered stealth ability, while still giving it it's overall purpose. No longer can noobs simply just walk to your base and nuke - it now takes a bit of strategy (or - at the least, longer hiding periods) to do so unseen. Exiting and entering a stealth tank will also have the same deactivation as shooting with a stealth unit. It's the same stealth mode, but now you have a bar that tells you how long your stealth will work for, and when that bar runs out, you need to wait 7 seconds for it to refill again, and your stealth ability will then be reactivated.

I have a few other interesting and neat ideas, but I'd like to see the general response to this first before going any further. Thoughts?

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Stealth isn't as overpowered as you think. Only stanks are used well. The sbh's are 3/4th of the game wasted. They have a lot of potential in taking out high value targets (engineers repairing tanks for example), but just arent used that way. They sometimes steal a tank, but that isnt as good as it was with the higher vehicle limits. Their only other power is infiltration to destroy a building, which is incredibly powerful. On many maps with defences this is useless to try. Without defences they have a larger chance and are worth it if they destroy something, but are generally wasted for a bigger part of the game. This means less people actually playing and having tactical value. This means GDI getting an upper hand.

I agree with the grenades. Mines are quite powerful and free. If you can buy a powerful grenade for 100-200, it would add to the tactical economic part of the game. I would limit the grenades to anti tank and anti infantry. Maybe be able to buy and carry up to 3 anti tank and just one of the anti infantry.

The smoke grenades of Planetside 2 are the best I've seen so far. They obscure sight in varying degrees due to billowing of the clouds and any targeting is hard and easily disappears in the smoke. Still, I dont think its Renegade material. Despite that it would be incredibly cool to have them in Renegade anyway.

The engineers have high tactical value, but are weak in direct engagements. I think that should not be changed. All their power is in a weak and not much wanted position.

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1. Edited repairing units in Renegade:

Instead of each team having one infantry option for a strong repair gun, I thought up of something a little bit different (since hotwires/technicians are almost always the most used character in the game, and honestly a bit OP when it comes to repairing). The idea actually came from Planetside 2's character system, which really works well with that game. Obviously I edited it up a bit so that it would work with Renegade - but here is the general idea:

Two Hotwire/Technician options for each team. Both cost the standard 350 credits.

(To give you perspective - the weak repair gun (engineer) in Renegade does -2 damage, and the strong does -4 per second to everything).

One will be infantry/mine/beacon repairing based - doing damage equal to that of the current strong repair gun (-4 per second) to all infantry units and beacons, and doing -5 damage per second to all c4s/mines. To buildings and vehicles, however, this unit's repair gun only does -2 damage per second . The character will then also have: 3 remote c4s, but after laying 2 there is a 5 second reload time in order to lay the third one; one timed c4; a pistol; and the default proximity mines.

The other will be vehicle/building repairing based - doing damage equal to that of the current strong repair gun (-4 per second) to all buildings and vehicles, and doing -5 damage per second repairing any building, but not when repairing the MCT (so when targeting the actual building). To infantry, mines/c4s, and beacons, this unit will do -2 damage per second. The character will then also have: 2 remote c4s; 2 timed c4s; a pistol; and a new set of anti-tank mines that are limited per player (rather than per team) at 3 per player. These mines don't count against the mine limit for the team in anyway, and instead are limited solely at 3 anti-tank mines per player. These mines are designed to explode only when a heavy unit (vehicles, not infantry) goes over them. They each do 55 damage to any vehicle (proximity mines do about 30), but cannot be put within 3 yards of each other - if this happens, the mine trying to be laid down will automatically disarm. This is to try and help the fact that proximity mines are pretty useless against tanks as is.

That would make hotwires and technicians even more overpowered, as they would just buy the one that fits the right situation. And trust me, hotwires and technicians are not OP. their average life span is very short, and they're basically too important to nerf. I've played both APB and TSR for long enough to know that having no mobile repair unit is an absolute gamebreaker, as it's impossible to hold a position for a longer amount of time.

please don't touch the repairing units, they work just fine as how they are right now.

2. More explosives:

Lets just think rationally here; the fact that there is a grenade launcher in the game, yet no toss-able grenades is a bit concerning. It's no secret that infantry have a hard time moving about in Renegade for the most part, because of tanks, and snipers hugging the walls. So why not add some explosives to help mix it up a bit in battle? The fact that the Renegade X team added in a new purchase terminal option named Items is the perfect way to introduce this into the Renegade gameplay:

(Note: Limit of 1 maximum grenade per character. Not refillable; have to repurchase to get another one).

- Smoke Grenade - $150. Does exactly what you think it would do. Sends out a medium sized cover of smoke for 6 seconds upon its explosion. Both teams have to bear the smoke. Good for tunnel rushing, nuke defending, escaping mid-battle, etc.

-Frag Grenade - $100. Works like a single twice-as-powerful grenade launcher grenade, but instead of exploding on impact, it rolls around a bit in the general direction of the closest enemy and explodes 3 seconds after it is thrown. Good to make those wall huggers have to retreat temporarily.

-Sticky Grenade - $150. Works exactly like the frag grenade, except it doesn't roll and it will also stick to vehicles. Explodes 2 seconds after impact instead of 3.

-Tiberium Grenade -$200. Works just like the smoke grenade, except that any infantry unit (besides chem warrior) inside of the tiberium smoke will receive 20 damage per second (includes yourself). Lasts for 5 seconds instead of 6 (maximum of 100 damage dealt if anyone remains inside it for the 5 seconds). Perfect for defending your beacon or c4s on a MCT, or for taking control of the tunnel.

-EMP Grenade -$300. Works like a sticky grenade in that it has to be thrown at a vehicle and stuck to it in order for it to take effect. 2 seconds after impact, it will make the targeted tank (and that tank only), not be able to move (still has ability to shoot) for 4.5 seconds. Perfect for stopping that early game APC rush - so long as you can get close enough to it to hit it with the grenade.

-Tactical Insertion -$60. Insert one of these bad boys into any desirable purchase terminal, and have your next spawn be at that purchase terminal (and your next spawn only). Good for people who get sick of spawning in the building farthest away from the field, or for people looking to get a quick spawn exactly where they want to spawn (for competitive players).

smoke grenade: i can see potential in this one. could work as a good measure or counter-measure to remove the sniper's sight in the tunnel and then bombard it with c4. or throw a few at a base entrance right before you rush with vehicles. in a open field, they seem quite useless to me.

frag grenades: always handy, don't have much to say about that one :)

sticky grenades: i would LOVE to see those getting thrown on a SBH by accident! xD but furthermore, they would make a great weapon to take out infantry taking cover behind a rock, tank or corner. tactical possibilities? definately.

Tiberium grenades: IMO (idk how someone else would think about it, who knows) a horrible idea to use inside buildings. i would simply hate that person for being such a pussy player. just stay inside and fight like a man!

EMP grenades: My least favourite horror from every game involving vehicles... they are overpowered. especially in a game like this. sabotaging a vehicle for so long is WAY overpowered, and again, i've played TSR for long enough to know that everyone hated the EMP mines they had. EMP grenades would be overpowered to a level of broken.

Tactical insertion: I like this idea. i really do. i hate spawning inside the same building 5 times while being camped by snipers, or spawn at the furthest away Purchase Terminal from the base entrance.

3. Activated Stealth Mode:

Okay, lets just be honest here. Stealth units are fun to use in Renegade. They're also completely overpowered in many ways (3 SBH timed c4 rushing a MCT for example). To counter this, and make the noob-friendly unit take more skill to use effectively, all stealth units now have activation and deactivation modes. The idea is simple: 35 seconds of stealth activation, followed by 7 seconds of deactivation. In other words, 35 seconds of stealth, followed by 7 seconds of non-stealth. The 7 seconds is the time it takes for the 35 seconds to recharge, and for your stealth ability to kick in again. Shooting restarts the 7 second countdown automatically. This will likely help solve the general over powered stealth ability, while still giving it it's overall purpose. No longer can noobs simply just walk to your base and nuke - it now takes a bit of strategy (or - at the least, longer hiding periods) to do so unseen. Exiting and entering a stealth tank will also have the same deactivation as shooting with a stealth unit. It's the same stealth mode, but now you have a bar that tells you how long your stealth will work for, and when that bar runs out, you need to wait 7 seconds for it to refill again, and your stealth ability will then be reactivated.

they're fun, but really, they're being used by too many noobs. what Ban4Life said covered about everything i have to say about it. Base defences, harvy walking, triggering mines at the right moment, stealing vehicles and then killing hotwires with it, they all make part of the awesome lives of SBH's. if they're being used properly. otherwise they're most likely the sole reason for your team losing the match.

and about stealth tanks. they are amazing in matches like under, where the enemy has the field and you can get still inside the field, stay unnoticed, rush into their base alone, not firing, quickly repairing your stealth tank right next to the AGT and C4 the War factory in a 10 hour game, and destroy their remaining vehicles right before you die (or escape). the satisfaction from pulling this off alone is bigger then seeing your favourite soccer team become world champion. again, this takes months of expierience, skill and luck. and if you're not as good, you can always squash a pesky little havoc or hotwire, push the enemy mammoth tank into friendly fire and win the field. also makes you feel awesome.

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I agree with your stealth activation idea. Stealth in Renegade is really easy to abuse.

As xD_Error stated, your idea for technicians/hotwires would make them OP.

Why should they add extra explosions? Doing so would make this game less like Renegade and more like CoD.

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I agree with your stealth activation idea. Stealth in Renegade is really easy to abuse.

As xD_Error stated, your idea for technicians/hotwires would make them OP.

Why should they add extra explosions? Doing so would make this game less like Renegade and more like CoD.

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Stealth isn't as overpowered as you think. Only stanks are used well. The sbh's are 3/4th of the game wasted. They have a lot of potential in taking out high value targets (engineers repairing tanks for example), but just arent used that way. They sometimes steal a tank, but that isnt as good as it was with the higher vehicle limits. Their only other power is infiltration to destroy a building, which is incredibly powerful. On many maps with defences this is useless to try. Without defences they have a larger chance and are worth it if they destroy something, but are generally wasted for a bigger part of the game. This means less people actually playing and having tactical value. This means GDI getting an upper hand.

I've played Renegade since the release, and I can tell you with much confidence that stealth units are overpowered. The fact that they can easily kill a building on maps without base defenses is enough. The other advantages of them don't even need to be considered because of how powerful that one is. An SBH costs $400 and can do far too much for that low cost. The fact that they can easily spy on enemy movements makes it almost impossible for GDI to produce a quick rush without nod being prepared for it. I'm a player who's played competitively over the years (clanwars, community wars, fun wars, lobby wars). The character is so noob-friendly as is that it makes it so that someone with actual skill with one can "fuck shit up" pretty easily. Just knowing that there could be one lurking around in the field gives nod an advantage, because nod can get out and repair their own vehicles without ever having to worry. GDI doesn't have that ability, because of the SBH. Many SBH's just sit in the field waiting to steal a tank, which does far more damage to GDI then you'd think. Not only is that tank now nod's, but most of GDI players aren't even aware of it yet. Meaning that he can now go kill any hotwires repairing, and flank the rest of the GDI barricade as well. The activation ability would simply make this harder to do, and it would make it so that stealth units will have a harder time remaining unseen in the field, and have to be more tactical.

I agree with the grenades. Mines are quite powerful and free. If you can buy a powerful grenade for 100-200, it would add to the tactical economic part of the game. I would limit the grenades to anti tank and anti infantry. Maybe be able to buy and carry up to 3 anti tank and just one of the anti infantry.

The smoke grenades of Planetside 2 are the best I've seen so far. They obscure sight in varying degrees due to billowing of the clouds and any targeting is hard and easily disappears in the smoke. Still, I dont think its Renegade material. Despite that it would be incredibly cool to have them in Renegade anyway.

I partially agree with you there. The smoke grenades I proposed though wouldn't be as powerful as those. They last a shorter time and only have a medium smoke cover. The idea about carrying 3 at once is way too much though. A limit of 1 per character is more than enough to give them their worth in specific situations.

The engineers have high tactical value, but are weak in direct engagements. I think that should not be changed. All their power is in a weak and not much wanted position.

I'm sorry, but this leads to me to believe that you have only played in public servers. Actually, I know you have because I know your name and see you play from time to time. Competitive Renegade is a different game. Hotwires/Technicians are unanimously the best character to use by far. I'd say that they are 90%+ of the infantry purchases in competitive play. The idea here isn't to make them less or more powerful - it is to spread their power out into 2 units.

That would make hotwires and technicians even more overpowered, as they would just buy the one that fits the right situation. And trust me, hotwires and technicians are not OP. their average life span is very short, and they're basically too important to nerf.

I also know that you have never played competitively. Please understand that I am not trying to knock public players in any way, but the VAST majority of players who still play Renegade are very very bad at the game. I know that for some of you this may be hard to understand, because you've either never played competitively or you have started playing Renegade in the past 4-5 years when competitive play has died down a lot. I'm not saying that you are bad or do not know the game - but it is a different beast to play competitively in Renegade. I play with or against you quite often even now, Error. Don't get me wrong - you are not a bad player comparatively to other Renegade players who still play, and I'm not trying to insult you. The fact is though, that you wouldn't last long in a competitive atmosphere. Anyone who has played competitive Renegade will easily be able to back me up on this too. The only reason hotwires/technicians aren't "OP" in your mind is because you play a Renegade where most people don't know how to use them too effectively. I don't blame you for thinking like you do - but the truth of it all is that Renegade X will have a competitive side to it from the very start. It's important to provide balance where balance is needed.

I want people to understand something - the edit to the technician/hotwire is not a nerf. It is separating the power and efficiency of the character into 2 role-specific characters. The building/vehicle specific character would likely still be used the most. The difference between this character and the current Renegade character is that it does not repair infantry, mines, or beacons as fast (it repairs them at equal the amount of the current weak repair gun instead). The character instead repairs buildings from the outsides faster (not MCT). The character's mines are then replaced with mines that fit it's role. Right now the role of the technician/hotwire is universal within Renegade. It can be used to extreme effect in any circumstance. Splitting the character into 2 specific role characters is not a nerf - it is separating their powers. They both are given abilities/weapons to increase their effectiveness for their role slightly in fact. The change is that they are no longer universal, in that they can no longer repair everything at the same rate, and instead are given specific changes that will help them do a specific role better than the current technician/hotwire.

I've played both APB and TSR for long enough to know that having no mobile repair unit is an absolute gamebreaker

I want you to carefully re-read the proposed changes again please. This line leads me to strongly believe that you are not understanding the changes.

smoke grenade: i can see potential in this one. could work as a good measure or counter-measure to remove the sniper's sight in the tunnel and then bombard it with c4. or throw a few at a base entrance right before you rush with vehicles. in a open field, they seem quite useless to me.

True. As they should be.

Tiberium grenades: IMO (idk how someone else would think about it, who knows) a horrible idea to use inside buildings. i would simply hate that person for being such a pussy player. just stay inside and fight like a man!

Hahaha. Yes, this is the main reason that they are priced significantly higher. The damage and length isn't enough to kill any unit alone though.

EMP grenades: My least favourite horror from every game involving vehicles... they are overpowered. especially in a game like this. sabotaging a vehicle for so long is WAY overpowered, and again, i've played TSR for long enough to know that everyone hated the EMP mines they had. EMP grenades would be overpowered to a level of broken.

Normally I would agree with you here. I normally think that EMP's are way too overpowered for certain situational uses. That's why I made them so comparatively weak to other game's EMP grenades. For one, the person has to be close enough to you to actually hit you with the grenade. Meaning you could easily shoot him dead by then. For two, he would have to be rather accurate in doing so, seeing how I'm assuming you'd be moving. And for three, it only makes you lose your movement ability for 4.5 seconds. You still have the ability to shoot. With all that in mind, the EMP grenades would really only be used in very specific circumstances (especially since they are priced quite high).

they're fun, but really, they're being used by too many noobs. what Ban4Life said covered about everything i have to say about it. Base defences, harvy walking, triggering mines at the right moment, stealing vehicles and then killing hotwires with it, they all make part of the awesome lives of SBH's. if they're being used properly. otherwise they're most likely the sole reason for your team losing the match.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. I love being a SBH from time to time, just to be that pesk of a player. The great thing about this idea is that if the SBH is being used by a noob (and therefore not being used properly), well, they likely will not last nearly as long. They'll get spotted in deactivation mode when in the field and die. It's moreso to help rid noobs that like to follow snipers until they die, just to pick up their gun. Gone is their ability to remain hidden that whole time, and now they would have to be used effectively.

and about stealth tanks. they are amazing in matches like under, where the enemy has the field and you can get still inside the field, stay unnoticed, rush into their base alone, not firing, quickly repairing your stealth tank right next to the AGT and C4 the War factory in a 10 hour game, and destroy their remaining vehicles right before you die (or escape). the satisfaction from pulling this off alone is bigger then seeing your favourite soccer team become world champion. again, this takes months of expierience, skill and luck. and if you're not as good, you can always squash a pesky little havoc or hotwire, push the enemy mammoth tank into friendly fire and win the field. also makes you feel awesome.

True, and the 35 seconds given is still plenty of time to get from the nod base to the GDI base without being seen on almost every single map. The only thing that would change with the stealth tank is that they can't simply sit there and wait in the field for people to move out of their way as long anymore (looking at you, City). Instead, they have to retreat back to the base or find cover in order to try again. Makes them take more skill.

And yesnomaybe, the explosives wouldn't be CoD like at all. For one, one alone wouldn't kill a player even if it's stuck to him or sitting right next to him. For two, it costs credits to purchase one. And for three, they are Renegade specific ones. No flashbangs/stun grenades like CoD, but only ones that Renegade would use. Renegade introduced a grenade launcher to the game, and for them to not then have grenades is a bit absurd. If it's like CoD, then CoD could really use that grenade launcher as a weapon ;)

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A lot of screen-filling text

And still SBH's and snipers are more popular by some players. One difference of Ren and Ren-X is that in Renegade, everybody was buying 1000 credit characters or hotwires/tech/SBH. But in Ren-X the other characters are also effective on their own way, you just have to find out when to use which character. The main goal of a hotwire is to provide defense and support. They never will be the character to push back these awesome tunnel defending and field defending characters of Ren-X. The chem. sprayer, 225 credit rocket launcher, McFarland and the new patch are really useful in some situations. C4 will not be the solution to every situation (but still powerful if used the right way), not anymore... or at-least that is what I can say after some testing.

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Don't be so demeaning. I've played this from the beginning too.

Can you give a full argument for changing the techs? Right now I see only sentiment. My preference for arguments comes from my university training. If you have a compelling arguement behind your sentiment, I will change my mind.

As I've never played competitive, my arguments for public and competitive are the same. My public experience makes my opinion pretty solid, but for competitive play I can be persuaded. IF you can find the right arguments. If it is really that much of a problem after it releases, maybe a competitive play hotty/tech things can be installed.

The SBH can get a higher pricing. It has been done on several servers with mixed success. My sentiment stays the same. The unit should be stealth continuously, or it will be nerfed. The stank is ok the way it is, especially with the upgrades GDI is getting. For the most part I would wait until the release. Like Cirex is saying: most units have much more effectiveness In Renegade-x. As the creators say in a podcast. The units have a much greater impact than before (in comparison with tanks) Also the new maps are radically different. To suggest more change now is doubting the creators who have neen devoted for sometimes 7 years to this project.

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@Cirex:

in Renegade, everybody was buying 1000 credit characters or hotwires/tech/SBH.

If somebody has the money to buy a character that is far more expensive than another character, then shouldn't that character's output match how much cost it took to purchase? I agree that the overall usefulness of characters that were not 1000 level characters was too low comparatively for how much the 1000 level characters were able to do. At the same time though, a 400 level character shouldn't be more effective at doing what the 1000 level character's specialty is. It should be relatively 40% as strong when all is said and done. The SBH's stealth ability is an ability that is worth more than the $400 it costs for that character.

The main goal of a hotwire is to provide defense and support.

It's also the only character in the game that individually carries enough c4s to kill a building. So it's purposes are to support any and all units, place mines for defense, repair damaged buildings, and it also has the ability to destroy any building it gets inside of in ~30 seconds time that can go unnoticed. That's a big purpose that you left out. If the character was just a repairing unit with proximity mines, it'd be used, but used far less (think of APC rushes, hotwires sneaking, etc.).

C4 will not be the solution to every situation

That has never been the case?

@Ban4life:

Don't be so demeaning. I've played this from the beginning too.

I'm sorry that you took it to be demeaning. You began your previous post with "Stealth isn't as overpowered as you think." I was simply informing you that what I think has a LOT of experience and knowledge to support it and back it up. I didn't mean to demean you, I was just trying to inform you that there is a competitive side of Renegade that most people who don't participate in simply can't understand fully. The players that play competitively are in a different level. It's hard to see that as a public player, but it is nonetheless true.

Here is a short video to try and help you understand (though playing in them is truly the only way to get the full experience). It's a community war with Jelly vs RenForums. It is part of the RGCT2 (Renegade Global Community Tournament 2). Jelly is a community that probably has the best winning percentage in community wars of any community in Renegade history. RenForums was a newly designed group that featured players that have been in the Renegade community as a whole and Renegadeforums.com (most were very knowledgeable and skilled players). RF ended up winning the championship of the RGCT2. In the game were a few of the best Renegade players of all time. Take a look:

The amount of teamwork and strategy that takes place is almost unbelievable. Every member is constantly communicating on TeamSpeak and informing together. Every move, every purchase, every strategy is well thought out and executed. Like I said, it's a different game. Most of these games end by base destruction because of the teamplay within them. I'm just trying to let you know that my view of things is broader than just having public play experience. I've experienced it all.

Can you give a full argument for changing the techs?

As is, it is the most used character in Renegade. It costs $350 and it's ability to repair at twice the speed and 1.5 times the range of the basic engineer makes it the ultimate support unit. When you also take into account that it has enough c4s to take out a building on its own (the only character able to do so), it makes for a hell of a unit for the $350. That's not even mentioning the ability to place mines to help defend units as well. They do it all, and is good for basically any circumstance (except maybe individual tunnel rushing). The idea isn't to nerf this character - it isn't OP as an all around character - the repair aspect of it is OP since it repairs twice as fast as the engineer repair gun and at range that is farther as well. It should be strong, but not that strong. The idea of breaking it up into 2 units is essentially just breaking the current unit that is good for any circumstance, into 2 units that each are specialized in their own way. A technician that is based on repairing buildings/vehicles has the ability to be more effective at doing so, but less effective at repairing infantry/mines/beacons. The other technician would work the exact opposite way. That's the idea behind it all, and the proposed idea is thoughtout keeping all of that in mind.

My preference for arguments comes from my university training.

I'm unsure exactly what is meant by this, but a lot of my knowledge is too stemmed off of my college learning.

Sure the SBH could just use a price increase - but it'd still be as effective as it always has been, just cheaper. The activation/deactivation periods just provides the extra gameplay tweak needed to balance out the unit, and provides that more skill be used to effectively utilize it.

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@Cirex:
in Renegade, everybody was buying 1000 credit characters or hotwires/tech/SBH.

If somebody has the money to buy a character that is far more expensive than another character, then shouldn't that character's output match how much cost it took to purchase? I agree that the overall usefulness of characters that were not 1000 level characters was too low comparatively for how much the 1000 level characters were able to do. At the same time though, a 400 level character shouldn't be more effective at doing what the 1000 level character's specialty is. It should be relatively 40% as strong when all is said and done. The SBH's stealth ability is an ability that is worth more than the $400 it costs for that character.

A 1000$ sniper is supposed to be better as a 500$ one. However that said, it is a sniper. While some did consider it as a sniper+shotgun combo in original renegade, it will be hard to use a sniper in close combat in Renegade-x. Especially that part has been changed (so far). On each situation another character will be more effective.

SBH could and should be able to counter a 1000$ sniper, a sniper should not be standing uncovered ;). but the SBH does not have a perfect aim anymore (in the current beta build), so good luck with your sniper-kill. Sure they can nuke your base, but only if your team can't protect his base well. Sure they can C4 structures, but didn't we had mines? The GDI 400$ unit is pefect to (score)whore or destroy structures in big groups, just shoot from a save distance on the enemy base. While NOD does not have a unit like the gunner, they have a rocket launcher but that unit does shoot a bit slow, and it has another purpose in Ren-X. Each team has his own advantages.

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"Can't protect his base well?"

The reason GDI loses on most Walls public games is because of SBH nukes or 3 SBH timed c4 rushes. How do you defend against it? Even with perfect mining and constant camping, one can still get in. You also failed to address how easy it is for them to steal enemy vehicles as is as well. Believe me, i recognize and support the stealth unit on Nod and how it has its advantages and disadvantages. However, the stealth advantage is too great in Renegade, and even with the changes in Renegade X, I really don't see that changing without something additional being changed. The addition of bushes and shrubbery on a map like Islands in Renegade X introduces more spots for a nod SBH to hide a nuke inside the GDI base to kill a building. Yes the nuke has a blinking light on top of it, but it's still more hidden than it would be in Renegade. Once again, these are just simply ideas. Not suggestions, because the beta period is coming to an end soon enough. All these ideas are theoretical.

When Renegade X releases and if SBH's are OP in it like in Renegade X (or worse), believe me, the idea will start looking better and better :P

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"Can't protect his base well?"

The reason GDI loses on most Walls public games is because of SBH nukes or 3 SBH timed c4 rushes. How do you defend against it? Even with perfect mining and constant camping, one can still get in. You also failed to address how easy it is for them to steal enemy vehicles as is as well.

Also I like to mention you how badly people suck in teamplay these days, that's mostly the reason of a GDI failure on Walls. Talking about how much people suck, on a good match NOD should not be able to steal any vehicle. It is just these people on GDI who think they can repair their tank anywhere on the field. That´s why I consider an empty tank more as an opportunity then a tactic. Waste of time if your enemy is to good. NOD´s biggest failure is that they have a team of SBH all camping around GDI structures and tanks. While GDI can farm them. Sometimes the SBH is even the worst thing that could happen to NOD, you can´t even plan a simple stank rush with all these SBH camping weapon-drops and awaiting GDI tanks.

Still everybody has his way to play and this is just my point of view, but talking about experience on Renegade is not 100% legit if you are talking about Renegade-X. Still experience on Renegade is worth something, but that is more on the tactics part, on the other parts you have to forget everything and get used to the remade units/weapons/tanks/aircraft (even while not changed that much, still it changed a lot for the better players around) and the (a bit) different maps. Time will learn, you might be even right. But it is to early to scream around with the small amount of details you got about the game.

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Why are you capitalizing each letter in Nod?

I also addressed that the SBH's camping the weapon drops would be essentially fixed with this idea implemented. Even the most skilled player can still unluckily have his tank stolen by an SBH. It's not hard to get out, repair, get back in and shoot, then repeat. Sometimes you have to get out and repair in order to survive though, and that's when a lurking SBH can steal your vehicle. It's just unlucky.

Like I said, everything I said is theoretical. So you may very well be right. I know it's a new game with a different gameplay. I can only base what I'm saying off of the current Renegade though. To base it off of a game that only beta testers can play from time to time would be irrational at best.

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That would make hotwires and technicians even more overpowered, as they would just buy the one that fits the right situation. And trust me, hotwires and technicians are not OP. their average life span is very short, and they're basically too important to nerf.

Anyone who has played competitive Renegade will easily be able to back me up on this too. The only reason hotwires/technicians aren't "OP" in your mind is because you play a Renegade where most people don't know how to use them too effectively. I don't blame you for thinking like you do - but the truth of it all is that Renegade X will have a competitive side to it from the very start. It's important to provide balance where balance is needed.

maybe i understood this wrong. do you mean that if you're by example buy a vehicle repair hotwire, it's mine/c4/nuke disarm power decreases, but the vehicle repair power stays the same as the original? it does not increase?

i thought it's vehicle repair power would increase. or am i right here? please tell me. if it's vehicle repair power stays the same, i don't see any problem with this. although i don't see much diffrence in being 3 seconds faster when disarming mines. C4 on a building is something entirely diffrent though, allthough that puts you in a defensive position, which means you're only a couple of inches away from a purchase terminal. so...

I've played both APB and TSR for long enough to know that having no mobile repair unit is an absolute gamebreaker

I want you to carefully re-read the proposed changes again please. This line leads me to strongly believe that you are not understanding the changes.

don't get me wrong here. i was just making an addition to your post, not changing anything.

Renegade introduced a grenade launcher to the game, and for them to not then have grenades is a bit absurd. If it's like CoD, then CoD could really use that grenade launcher as a weapon ;)

this grenade launcher is more useful then you think. as the weapon description says in the campaign, it's a very useful weapon to be able to shoot in irregular positions. and i use it as a free character to scare a sakura away from a tunnel, throw c4 on the ceiling and then them dying 30 seconds later. it simply is a great distraction to get closer to your enemy. too bad it has a low range though.

kinda funny how some weapons get used in such diffrent ways then they were supposed to... :)

also, regarding the discussion about SBH's. there really isn't a point in discussing this. yes, they're powerful, but there are more then mines to stop them from mining the entrance. if you're really dedicated to catching a SBH, go fake afk next to a purchase terminal. this method is 100% failproof, provided they visit the right building and you're nolife enough to do it.

I also know that you have never played competitively. Please understand that I am not trying to knock public players in any way, but the VAST majority of players who still play Renegade are very very bad at the game. I know that for some of you this may be hard to understand, because you've either never played competitively or you have started playing Renegade in the past 4-5 years when competitive play has died down a lot. I'm not saying that you are bad or do not know the game - but it is a different beast to play competitively in Renegade. I play with or against you quite often even now, Error. Don't get me wrong - you are not a bad player comparatively to other Renegade players who still play, and I'm not trying to insult you. The fact is though, that you wouldn't last long in a competitive atmosphere.

no offence taken, i love constructive feedback ^_^

i don't know who you would be in C&C Renegade. but i understand what you say. i've never played competetive, and it's hard to teamplay with some russians who don't know english, stanislav's or some random ego-maniac. but what i do know is that if i am motivated, i can guarantee myself a top position in the leaderboard. it may not seem so to you but i know much more about teamplay then you might think. it's not easy though, because of what i said above. too bad i'm so persistent in C4'ing enemy buildings with a hotwire though ñ_ñ

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it's mine/c4/nuke disarm power decreases, but the vehicle repair power stays the same as the original? it does not increase?

i thought it's vehicle repair power would increase. or am i right here? please tell me. if it's vehicle repair power stays the same, i don't see any problem with this.

Yes, the vehicle/building specific technician's repair power to vehicles would remain the same as it is in current Renegade.

It would essentially only have 3 differences from the original technician in Renegade:

1. Repairs c4s/beacons/infantry at the rate of the weak repair gun in current Renegade.

2. Repairs buildings from the outside a bit faster than the current technician repair gun.

3. Has anti-tank mines (at a limit of 3 per player) to replace proximity mines (since it's role is vehicle/building specific).

although i don't see much diffrence in being 3 seconds faster when disarming mines. C4 on a building is something entirely diffrent though, allthough that puts you in a defensive position, which means you're only a couple of inches away from a purchase terminal. so...

It's the other technician that would receive the faster c4 repairing bonus (I'm not sure where 3 seconds came from though?). His changes would be:

1. Repairs buildings/vehicles at the rate of the current weak repair gun in Renegade.

2. Repairs c4s a bit faster than the current strong repair gun in Renegade.

3. Is given 3 rc4s (with a 5 second reload to lay the 3rd) and one timed c4, instead of the original 2 timed, 2 rc4s that the other technician would posses (since it is infantry based. This could also help a rush of 2 of these bad boys take out a building in 10 seconds theoretically).

don't get me wrong here. i was just making an addition to your post, not changing anything.

I know. It just seemed to me as if your statement was sort of off-topic since it was about having no repair unit in a game, whereas my idea was to split it into two units. Just made me think you didn't understand is all, my mistake.

also, regarding the discussion about SBH's. there really isn't a point in discussing this. yes, they're powerful, but there are more then mines to stop them from mining the entrance.

Then why is it that SBH's have the 2nd leading building kills (through nukes and c4s) on non-base defense maps for Nod (second to only the arty of course, which is much higher)? Especially in a marathon specific mode - it's just too useful in certain circumstances (especially when they manage to pick up a sniper...).

and it's hard to teamplay with some russians who don't know english, stanislav's or some random ego-maniac.

Oh believe me, I know. Team-play is almost impossible in public servers, even if you're trying your absolute best to make it happen. People just don't understand or don't care enough to listen.

i can guarantee myself a top position in the leaderboard.

I think that most skilled players could manage to get a top spot on the leaderboard almost every game if they tried hard to do so. Pointwhoring is unbelievably easy in a marathon mode in today's Renegade in particular :P

too bad i'm so persistent in C4'ing enemy buildings with a hotwire though

Could be that the infantry based technician is just your thing then. 3 remote rc4s and 1 timed make it so that a rush of 2 of these is more effective to an unsuspecting team than a rush of 2 regular technicians.

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i can guarantee myself a top position in the leaderboard.

I think that most skilled players could manage to get a top spot on the leaderboard almost every game if they tried hard to do so. Pointwhoring is unbelievably easy in a marathon mode in today's Renegade in particular :P

so, you're trying to tell me that i'm a pointwhore? :rolleyes:

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For the record, I played this game from the start, though it is true that I rarely played competitively.

So the Hottie/tech update is actually aimed at the competitive play. You state that it is overpowered in competitive play, but not how. I read only sentiments, so I have no idea why you want to upgrade it in competitive. By all means, change it in competitive if it really is a pain. I just want to see some good arguments why they are OP in competitive play, and the arguments why this will change it for the better. They can add a "competitive" option in the servers. Maybe it catches on enough that it will come to the public servers. In the public servers the current setup is good, because people play their own styles, sometimes with teamplay.

Keep in mind that every character has its own role to play. Saying that the SBH has the most building kills is actually not a very strong indicator, leading to faulty arguments. Should we make the ramjet rifle do higher damage to buildings, so Sakura/Havoc will have more building kills? Or just give them extra C4? I mean, it only has unit kills despite its high pricing... The SBH on the other hand doesn't have so much vkills or normal kills. The only reason he will possibly out-gun most other units (below 1000 characters) in these categories is because they aren't taken as much.

That the SBH is potentially so versatile makes is a very cheap unit indeed. They are prime at breaking the ties in many maps without defences. That even low skilled players can use this is not a reason to change it. Even low skilled players should be allowed to have a great impact in the game. Then the no skilled can suddenly apply patience and tactics in movement, contributing a lot to the game when they finally strike in comparison to their normal attacks. In Renegade-X, SBH's will have reduced power due to more players in the game and prevention of hopping. Despite this, they are still a potentially good unit for its price. The pricing of the SBH can easily be changed to get this done. But all of this isn't possible if Nod is pounded by GDI's tanks or swarmed in the tunnels due to GDI's focus on dependable power. If that happens, the SBH is a poor choice indeed. This might happen in the Beta. Also GDI's increased potential of striking the base with the mammoth tank should be considered. They can do a lot more initial damage before they start grinding away the health than before. Eventually you just have to wait until the release.

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The Hotwire/Technician is not overpowered in the sense that the unit does too much for the price. It's overpowered in the sense that it's uses expand across so much of the game that there is no other purchasable alternative. The idea is simply a solution to that - it adds an alternative unit to purchase, whilst giving each character specific improvements and nerfs based on their specific role that balance each other out.

Here's a couple of examples on how much use the character gets, and how effective it is in just about any situation. This is in competitive play, but the idea isn't just to implement it there - it's to implement in throughout...ideally.

If you watch the whole thing, there's really only 3 total character purchases to be seen in this particular game. 90%+ of the characters purchased are the hotwire/technician - as expected in competitive play. There's a couple havocs and a sakura at one point too I believe, and then an early game laser chain gunner to try and fend off the early game APC rush (GDI had thought that they were playing on Walls_Flying, and were all waiting for the credits to buy an orca. Only to realize that the map was Walls, which was unexpected).

It's just that there's no other reason to buy any other character in this type of situation. You're always going to buy a tech/hotty when in a vehicle if you have the money, and you're always going to 1 man rush with one too. The idea is to try and mix this up. Maybe rushing with the infantry technician is a better choice in the circumstance because of the 3 rc4s and proximity mines to defend the c4s on the MCT. Maybe not. The decision is yours. Right now, in classic Renegade, there is no decision to be made. It's unanimous. Why would you go with anything else?

Saying that the SBH has the most building kills is actually not a very strong indicator, leading to faulty arguments. Should we make the ramjet rifle do higher damage to buildings, so Sakura/Havoc will have more building kills?

The specific details of the argument I was making was that of a Marathon game mode. The Sakura/Havoc are already more than enough effective on their own against all infantry, and all light armored vehicles. They're so much better than any unit at that that they don't need to be a building threat. That's like comparing the APC to the stealth tank. Obviously both have completely different functions and roles. What I was comparing was strictly the building killers of the game.

That even low skilled players can use this is not a reason to change it.

Were you not one of the ones making the argument that noobs with an SBH ruin the game because they aren't being effective? Well if the activation/deactivation mode were put in place, they would likely die rather quickly as an SBH (since it takes more skilled players to use with the addition of the edit). Meaning they would have to use another unit - such as a repairing unit - that would help the team much more.

SBH's will have reduced power due to more players in the game and prevention of hopping.

More players in the game? The limit is 64. The limit on many servers back in the day was that or greater even in some cases. Just because the maximum is higher doesn't mean that any servers will consistently maintain that many players. Even so, some servers will choose to set the maximum player count at a number even lower than that. SBH's also don't hop very often, and can easily be seen in Renegade when they do anyway. Really was never an issue in Renegade (since it also takes somewhat skilled players to know how to hop).

Eventually you just have to wait until the release.

Once again, all of this is theoretical, and is *mostly* based off of original Renegade, but with the changes in Renegade X in mind (though obviously not tested to completion).

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