TomUjain

The enjoyment of a game is defined by the options we have open to us. Some like to snipe, others drive tanks etc... etc... I believe a lot of this fustration comes from the fact that losing a building effectively reduces the options you have to you. This is the main reason why people rage quit / get mad when a key building is lost. I believe we need to take another look at the rewards / punishments of losing a building are. As it was pointed out games can drag on and on; which isn't very fun if you are reduced to 1 key building for example. This is an argument I have made before. On FPI, when the ref is destroyed you still get a 2 tick per sec credit count -- on default if you lose the ref you get a painfully slow credit tick which makes playing RenX a massive choir if you have to wait ages to save up for basic units. If I had my way I'd revamp all buildings with the following: Lose Power Plant: AGT / Obi continues to work at 25% strength Lose AGT / Obi: No change Lose Bar or Hon: All units remain, but suffer a 500% credit increase (stacking with power plant loss) Lose Wf or Strip: All units remain, but suffer a 500% credit increase (stacking with power plant loss and a cooldown) Lose Ref: Maintain a 2 tick credit trickle, no harv dump (we already have this on FPI) However this is a controversial issue, and the majority seem to disagree with me on this. The other big issue is map design. As it has been pointed out, this game was not designed for 64 players -- most maps simply can't cater to that size; as a side effect (under for example) we end up with 'bottle necking' Team stacking? I don't have the answer. FPI have tried to cater to both sides of this argument and failed. The problem is bad games can sometimes be caused by bad luck. That said, FPI does have one defence: you can request a team shuffle via !modrequest -- it has been an effective way to deal with 'bad teams' with the only downside is a mod / admin has to do it.

Please keep on topic.

Going AFK is no longer an offense (rule removed due to program that now deals with AFKing) Stacking (rule removed, Mods should no longer be forcing players apart) Manual shuffle rule added (Only to be used if it qualifies based on the rule) Smearing rule added (applies to everyone including slander/smearing aimed towards other servers)

Anyone who takes up big roles like server admin, mods, devs etc... is going to get a bashing. It isn't right, or fair -- but it is what I knew I was signing up for when FPI became a thing. This, sadly is life. politicians get stick, just as much as MMO devs get stick for nerfs / buffs etc... 'In order to be able to think, we have to risk being offensive' - jordan peterson That is why I brush off a lot of hate and anger thrown my way with regards to FPI, all we can all do is keep shuffling forward. With all that said I do believe we need to turn away from the 'i'm treated badly' theme because anyone in a power stance is going to get their fair share of stick. Instead, the topic needs to be directed towards why RenX isn't growing and why we can't retain players. A little case study i'm putting down here to go over a few issues i've noticed over the years Between 2% to as high as 60% of the team leaving when a building is destoryed - We need an insentive to get players to switch to a losing team when this takes place, or perhaps - find the source of the rage quits (see next point) Loss of playability - Is the 2nd biggist issue I have noted, next to team performance / balance. The punishment factor in RenX is very high, perhaps a little too high. Although many will disagree with me on the issue, they will agree with me regarding the fustration factor when down to only one building (an offline AGT for example) while having pretty much everything else locked out to you. FPI has tested the water with this by greatly increasing the ref credit tick (something which at the time was very controversial) but it has been a big hit with the community. No one should have to wait 20 mins to buy a basic unit. Now I am not advocating to put everything back into a destoryed building. I am however saying that the main reason people do leave when a building is destoryed is because that section of gameplay (i.e. sniper) is now locked off to those players. I do believe a strong punishment should still stand when a building is lost but some option should still stand for the team to still play.. Be that 5 min timers, increased costs, limited numbers or all of the above. Badly formed or poorly balanced teams - We have a clever team shuffler in place, specially requested manual shuffles from FPI (if applyable) and a new project on the way from the devs; I believe this issue (though still present) has largly been removed. Losing streaks - A problem tied into stacking / bad timing / bad team shuffles etc... no body wants to be locked into 7 sessions of failure. Base locking - This is ultimately a player limit issue. If we are hellbent on keeping 64 players, then we need a clever map selector that only puts in maps based on the number of players, removing small maps for full servers. However, I do feel a strong case can be made for 40 - 50 player limits and would reduce several of the problems we are facing currently. Confusion - As someone new to RenX, being thrown directly into the heart of a battle, or into an empty server gives a terrible first impression in either case. I highly recommend we remove our clunky server menu and instead add a proper menu that is a bit more user friendly. Options inc; Server menu (opens default server menu Get connected (links to discord, forums etc...) Help Play tutorial we also need to inform the players of events such as PUGs, as it stands - having a clunky list of servers is disorienting and poorly communicates anything to the player.

Well said Bong, and no offense taken (at least not on my end) it takes a strong guy to admit to their faults so I do admire you for that. That been said, I think FPI got it wrong as well - we were perhaps a litle too brutal in our approch on the issue. I 100% agree that the focus should be on retaining new players, not new features -- why add new features if no one is around to enjoy them? The real question we need to ask is: why can't we retain old players? Fire off 5 - 10 strong points then the devs need to go through the list and try and address said points. I do feel that if we could get 2 - 3 regular full servers that most of these issues would vanish over night.

Agree with lim on this one. Even if FPI continued enforcing the 'anti-stacking' I highly doubt much would change. As I also pointed out it is a tad unfair to pin point all game loses on stacking; primarily as having stackers on your team does not always mean a win. With that said, I still think something has to be done. The new team shuffle was a massive step in the right direction -- maybe homimg in and improving that would be worth while. Adding to that perhaps having a 'mechanical power gap' for when teams are uneven -- as an example, it could be based on point different 1,000 point different (losing team get 5% damage buff) 2,000 point different (losing team gets 10% damage buff) etc.... etc... as a rough example. Player limit - set at 64 probably is not helping; most maps are not designed for it. Its painful as a good chunk of the players like the 64 limit (I do too) but in my hones view we need to set it somewhere between 40 - 50.

This was the reasoning behind the whole removal of swap feature which has sparked a lot of this outrage. It pains me that the devs refuse to see this as an issue; when it is, aruably the biggist issue on the table. I could, if I wanted -- get all the FPI staff together and all stack to one team (all 12 of us) according to Agent, this is the behaviour we should be encouraging. I agree, the hate channeled at a select few players is wrong. I always tried to treat Poi and J with respect and approched Poi several times to try and make something work. I also agree people SHOULD be able to play with friends but where is the line drawn? Is it accetable for 15 or so people to all hop onto one team (extream example) should we turn a blind eye to this? 4 or 5? I don't have the answer. I can, however say that pretending this isn't an issue won't put this debait to bed. FPI has struggled to try and tame the issue all year and maybe (as I said) we were a little too over zealous on our approch. I do think a mechanical approch to solve this is greatly needed. I am rooting for this upcoming (or has it been put in yet?) team shuffler, it is a massive step in the right direction.

I have told them to NOT pick out any specific player, we will see @Sarah I paid for the server box, Goku set it up for us -- in regards to any mutators and other code; Goku, Sarah (you) and HiHiHi wrote those for us. Edit: forgot Iridesence ❤️

Thank you for the advice Madkill, and hope you can bare with us as we work this out.

...I have never taken credit for the work (anyone) else has done MadKill, and never will -- as I have said in my last post. Everyone on the mod team works hard, despite our political differences on various issues. I've done all I can on my end, and from the very start (when I announced the server last year) I told you guys that it wasn't going to be smooth as we 'ironed' out and grew. All I can do is grow and address the issues as they come by, try to 'steady the ship' as it were -- and that is what I will continue to do. Anyone can approch me regardless of who or what you are and I will always give you time. The snipers was just a point -- if a match is one sided; and it is carried over again, and again, and again it fustrates everyone. You've been in sessions like that, no? Look, i'm saying this again -- I want a community, I still want a community. Dividing players up was never my intention; I simply wanted games that were not one sided and thought a good way around that would be to restrict team swaps. Was it a good idea? I don't know, perhaps a bad judment call -- but always the risk you take for putting out new ideas. Perhaps my stance on how to move forward was wrong. I've removed the complex stacking rule, so anyone is free to play with whoever, for as long as you like, over as many sessions as you like -- but a shuffle is still in place for really, really bad sessions. Regardless, i've taken what's been said here to heart and will reflext on the points made. If you guys feel so strongly that FPI is a problem, then I will take it down (not being passive-aggressive here btw) I care about the communitys wellbeing

Not overlooked MadKill40, this thread took off like a firefly, even as I type -- more responces are being posted before I even finish this. and i've not had the time to go over any older points. As I said IRC is great, but it churns out a lot of text -- and it does not record PMs between players; if no mods are in game it is always good pratice to do a mod request or screenshot, it doesn't take long and makes out lives easier. No, I don't think you are being retarded -- I said I hate the word 'elite' or 'good' player, but they do have an effect on gameplay, granted they do not define a 100% chance to win. I do believe player mentaility may have some part in it, but fustration also plays a part in the issue -- if 3 - 4 good snipers get one one team for example and just spam kill Inf over and over from 500 miles away then I think that is a strong argument for people not wanting to play. As I said before: FPI has room to grow, and the issues raised here will be taken to heart and looked through. I'm glad (partly) this thread blew up the way that it did. I founded FPI on decomaracy and intend to keep pushing for that direction; as I said in my last post -- players can stack, mods won't go after anyone for stacking -- regardless of who you are. But if things get too rough players can request a team shuffle (see rules thread) I'm tired, but if I missed anything you want me to address MadKill I would be happy to. Applogies if I missed anything.

Sarah, without screenshots how do I know it took place? By extention -- I could say you harassed me now and just hope people take my word for it. Granted mods should be in game to see it (but if they are not doing their job and it is taking place, we need to know - else how can we do anything?) at the very least do a modrequest. You did try to moderate Sarah, and i'm thankful you did. Its a shame things turned out the way that they did. I have never, ever taken direct credit for the work someone else has done, never -- but at the same time, I don't expect people to hold their work to ransome either. Believe it or not, I wanted the offical server to take off -- more servers / ideals is a healthy thing. No, it wasn't seeded but FPI doesn't require as much seeding now either, despite 6 months a go when it was a 'seed war' players did tend to lean towards FPI. Am I boasting? No, I think FPI has a lot of room to grow, and believe it or not this thread is something I will take to heart and try to address the issues raised. We no longer have a 'stacked' rule in place. So my mods should be leaving everyone alone, unless things get royally screwed -- then players can request a manual shuffle where teams will be randomly shuffled without bias. IRC churns out a hell of a lot of text, 1000s and 1000s of lines -- and it doesn't account for PMs, which we also still classify as harassment.

Because, Sarah it makes your above point regarding my mods doing nothing hard to follow if you have a reputation for being a wildcard -- and you have no screenshots to boot. I pointed out the 'offical server' as an example of how FPI is seen overall; compared to (what I assume) is your version aka - less moderation and more focus on muting harassers? I never made the claim we are perfect, and i've just (as of now) spoken to my mods about the above point you raised about harasment. I just wish you told me or Goku earlier, or better - gave me or Goku screenshots.

Its my server Sarah, i'm the admin -- if mods are not doing their job, or rules are been broken I need to know. So yes I have to do it. I am saying it is a very valid, and strong focus for people to get upset and is a good level of reasoning behind what is causing the issue. I am simply saying I can't garentee that is the sole cause, any neither can you disprove it -- as much as I can't disprove yoy thinking 'no turtorial' is a root cause. No Sarah, you quoted me first. I'm not attacking you in anyway just replying to your quotes -- if it feels like an attack it is not intended to be that way i'm echoing what has already been done (and you have done some shady things in and outside of FPI) It is a lot better than the offical server, which struggled to retain 0% -- but the support we get is a lot higher than you think. As I said, and will say again -- me and Goku are always open to feedback. We can't always get it right. Sulking and rage qutting isn't productive and neither us can grow from that.

ultimative You are very active. But that wasn't my point. I've lost count of the amount of outrages, gossip and general concern the general community has put forward regarding the devs and the direction they are taking the game, as an example; This isn't the first time a statment like this has popped up. I don't like to 'box' players up which is why i always use 'elite' with quotes. Not, not just you three. I'm not painting any picture Sarah i'm simply reflecting what i've seen / heard over the years. I know you love the game, as do I. The '3 game rule' was not been followed anyway; players were using alias or finding loop-holes to try and bypass the rule altogether. I know you are not the only people stacking, and we don't always go after just you. I can't be everywhere at once. You, yourself were caught abusing mod powers -- I was only informed by 2nd hand info. As I will say again, if someone insults you screenshot it and send it to me -- I will always take your side, regardless of who or what you are -- IF it is genuine. My mods don't always SEE the insults either, non of us are paid for this and it is hard work - if people are harassing you TELL ME, or GOKU - bare in mind I do have work / life and can't sit on IRC all day. Don't rage quit, have a hissy fit and salk it isn't productive and doesn't help me, help you. FPI is held in high regard by a vast majority of the community (despite roughly 40% who hate our guts) -- speaks volumes. As I said in my OP, it was never my intetion to alienate anybody but to ignore this issue, and pretend it doesn't exsist is silly. I agree, perhaps FPI was a bit too overly zealous on how we went about it; but the ultimative -- doing nothing is far, far more harmful. Possibly. I can't say for sure. And neither can you, could it be that people getting head shot 50 times in a row, being stuck in 5 min losing sessions is a factor too? Possibly. Again, I can't answer. Maybe people vent about it more openly now; but in the old days -- it was just as much of a problem. The 'fustration' has never gone away, even if it is louder today. I agree 'hacking' and 'aim botting' is something I take with a pinch of salt; I try to focus on the bigger picture -- enjoyable games. As I said in the OP; 'elites' (I hate that word) do not always guarantee a solid win, but they do help, a lot. Bottom line: I've removed the stacking rule, so no one should be moving anybody -- that means you can play on the same team for 50 sessions in a row and you will be left alone. The only thing I still have in place is; if 3 or more 'bad games' take place we will do a shuffle the following round -- which will be fair.

Poi has been pretty open minded on the issue I have to say, and has been trying to play on different teams several times, even asking JP to switch back. @Agent Perhaps. I do feel there is a bit of bias between the 'normal' players and the 'elites' when it comes to direct attacks. Thats somthing I can look into. As it stands our trump card for un-even teams is a manual shuffle after 1 - 3 bad games (as defined by our rules thread) but this is demanding work and we can't always get it right. I don't think a conversation will do very little, aside from venting out a bit of truth from the community (which I think we need to see more of) but some sort of design mechanic would be a good way forward. I'm willing to put some reasonable ideas on the table, if the dev team was willing to meet us halfway on this problem?

No offense taken Kaunas, I agree, some ideas would be a good place to start -- but ultimatly a few game changes (whatever they maybe) is the only way to put this issue to bed. Regardless of what side of the fence you sit on this peoblem isn't going away.

I agree Kaunas, There are strong arguments to be made on both sides of this fence. Even before FPI was a thing stacking was a massive problem; and it was founded based on that one issue. I do not think it is fair that 'good' players take abuse for being good, and as I said in the OP - this is fueling the 'rivery' between both sides. we can't retain players - as my ad campagin last year showed. Stacking has always been an issue, since the dawn of time. I want friends to be able to play together and I welcome any ideas put forward. However I feel to meet in the middle here we need a mechanical change in game design -- or we will forever be aruging over this issue.

Hey guys, Please show respect, no insults or sassy behaviour please, that goes double to any FPI mods. Just to chip in here as I feel as this thread is at risk of becoming hostile. Despite what the devs, or anyone else thinks of FPI or its politics we (as I am sure the devs do as well) have the communitys best interest at heart. Despite the disagreements between FPI and the devs I don't want this to be a divide between us, nor do I want this to be a 'them vs us' as all that will do is divide the community further. With that said. @Agent I do agree that it isn't fair that 'elites' are put into this box -- which is why I tried so hard to find a work-a-round that benefited both sides. I failed, clearly -- and (as I said in my OP) this problem ended up pushing us to this stage. I believe, the big issue here is trust -- from what I can see here (and this isn't an attack on the devs) is that the vast majortiy of the player base has lost trust / hope in the devs, adding to that the devs have lost touch with the players as well. The 'stacking' issue, I would argue -- is a fault in game design, a big fault. As I said in the OP it isn't always 'the elites' that guarantee a win, but they do add a very high percentage. FPI did what we could (maybe going a little too far) to try and keep it fair for both sides; to keep games fun and fresh. It is clear the players feel very strongly about this problem (call it stacking, bad luck or whatever) as it keeps coming back as an issue again, and again -- and is the very reason I founded FPI in the first place, after two solid weeks of 'stacking' NOBODY likes to be headshot 50 times, it turns newbs off (as my ad campagin last year showed) and fustrates old players (hence the constant revival of this issue, which will refuse to go away until it is addressed, or at the very least looked into) Perhaps FPI did take it a little too far. But honestly, I believe the devs need to look at ways to address this problem. The recent change to the team shuffler was a massive step in the right direction. FPI is heavily moderared under very clear, fair and defined rules -- It is a system that helps tackle mod abuse and ensures our server is kept clean and fair for everyone. Do we go over the top? Perhaps, but as I have said many times before I am always open to feedback and always have an open door policy on discord to anyone, regardless of who or what you are. The bottom line is this: getting hostile with each other isn't productive and will not address the concerns at hand.

Hey guys, I want to address some issues that have been raised recently regarding FPI and clear up a few things. Please note that i'm not calling anyone out or pointing blame, the whole point of this post is to bring awareness to a lot of the issues, and the daily uphill battle FPI faces. The begining - I founded FPI with Goku last year, mainly -- to help grow the community and focus on a fair, safe and fun community server. My idea was to have clearly defined rules to keep us all in check (inc myself) and to moderate power so that, if it was used -- it would be done so fairly. I still hold that vision true and I have always kept an open ear to anyone who wanted to approch me in private, or had concerns regardless of who they were or what they did. 1) The Mods are aggressive - Needless to say, the RenX community is, in a word, pure anarchy. My mods are constantly solving issues and disputes both in and out of the game from trolls, team hampers, AFKers, general trouble makers etc... etc... All this work is tiring, and going on the front line as my mods do is a thankless job. Keeping moral high as we sludge through a barrage of attacks is tiring. Sometimes my mods do lash out, despite my attempts to keep things calm. A kick here, a tban here etc... maybe too harshly. As I have always said I am always open to be approched, sometimes my mods will make mistakes and sometimes emotions are running high. 2) We won't let you play with friends - Although some of you are keen to paint FPI as a villain I have tried, and failed to try and meet both sides of the argument to no success. What people need to understand is that the RenX community is very small, and the gameplay very unique and arcady. Roughly 1 in 50 players is 'elite' aka better than a typical player; what this means in a nutshell is 1 'elite' is worth roughly 3 normal players - with the added benefit of knowing the maps, tanks, classess etc. This wouldn't be an issue if we had several full servers -- but we don't, so one good player will ALWAYS stick out, ALWAYS. Regardles if your team is winning or losing. Though it is true having 3 - 5 elites all stack to one team does NOT mean a win -- it does make it awfully uncomfortable for the other team. I have many hours of footage on demos to back this up. Typically, the elites will chokepoint an area and farm kills. It almost, always leads to the same result -- people complaining. And who can blame them? If I used IRC to stack all my mods to one team and only went after elite player over, and over and over that would annoy them too. The bottom line is this: No body likes to be head shot over, and over and over; it turns new players off and fustrates older ones. FPI did try to cater to both sides of this argument but neither side was willing to compromise. Both sides felt like the victem (and to a degree they both were) it lead to intense hate towards the elites, who, in turn laughed it off as them being 'haters' so began this spiral of hate. Somewhere a long the line the issue was blurred and it became a them vs Us, something I tried to fight against when I founded FPI, even within my own mod team. The 'I want to play with my friend' excuse begins to wear very thin if the last 40 sessions, or every session you log in is with said friend. I wrote up a 3 game rule to try and address this issue, I spoke to the elites in person -- but very few people were willing to listen. I've been asked, by many sources to just 'ban' the elites as there is only a few of them; on the other side of the fence i've had elites approch me that feel upset, hated and shunned asking me to ban people who call them out. Neither of these ideas were productive, and neither of these ideas were going to solve the problem. Elites will always be a thing, baning the current ones won't stop any future ones from coming in. Constantly going after people who complain will not solve the issue either, in fact BOTH of these ideas would simply make the problem worse. Yet it puts FPI in this weird middle-ground where 'if you are not with us, you are aginast us' are you pro or anti stack? I didn't want FPI to be put into that box, after all the elites are part of the community as much as the regular players -- but at the same time i knew this was an issue, an issue that needed addressing. 3) Disabling Team Swap - Siving through player aliases and applying manual shuffles / enforcing these rules lead to extream hostility and complaining from a select few, while I was told to 'ignore' them it simply didn't sit well with me. Basically we couldn't win. As a result we, as a team decided to tackle the issue from the core and disable the team swap. Combined with the new shuffle code for teams things were starting to look up. Now, however we have a new issue -- F5 'Reconnect' while we were working on a patch to stop this I found myself thinking how silly this whole affair is. Believe it or not, the main reason I founded FPI was because I was on the borderline of quitting the game; after three whole weeks of stacked / terrible games on the CT server. Honestly guys I just want you all to be happy; this was never my server, it was always intended to be OUR server founded on democracy and fairness. Granted we had to get harsh a few times but it was always well intended (if sometimes misplaced) My mods are simply tired. And sometimes they lash out at silly / trival things, they are only human after all which is why I try to be understanding when a forced !ban is put in place -- as long as it isn't taking place too often, and it can be addressed then I overlook it. FPI is now at a crossroads. With one or two people trying hard to put us down (they will fail) it has left my team feeling exhausted. So here is what we are going to do from now on; Manual Shuffles. I am removing the stacking rule, and we will be re-enabling the team swap. However, we will be tallying groups of players (under alias or not) playing together -- and if the need arises for us to shuffle; these players will be the ones we switch first. This is the current rule we will be following; As I said earlier on in the post -- I want to see compromise from BOTH sides of this argument, the stackers and the 'players'. Naturally, if the game is running smoothly (see above quote) then mods should not be moving anybody. I hope this has cleared up a few concerns, and I hope you can bare with us during this difficult time. -Yumi

Please disregard my last post (applogies) stacking rule has been removed. If you appear on the same team, the mod team will not take action (regardless of skill level) as the removal of swap, and the new shuffle does a good job of 'keeping teams fair' ...but manaul shuffle is still an option if players request it after 3 'bad sessions' have passed, and will only be done at the start of the 4th match. If this is done, I will endevour to ensure scrambling is done fairly.

Updated again. To clarify; FPI staff can ignore a 'stacked team' if the game flow is OK aka game is not ending in under 20 mins and has reasonable back and forth between both sides. If games do not meet the above quota, then after 3 matches -- FPI staff may manually shift players, leaving the server and re-joining the server does not reset the quota.

As Rypel pointed out, this has recently become a bit of an issue and 'stacking' has become somewhat of a buzz word. As Yosh pointed out the common complaint is when several groups of 'pro players' stack to one team which causes a 'bottle neck' effect and is the core focus of the issue. Over the year I've noticed that the shuffle we have in place is simply not good enough at sorting teams correctly, frequently re-stacking the teams again and again. FPI has tried to combat this by applying a 'manual shuffle' at the start of the 3rd round of stacked games, but as you can imagine this is a difficult task to pull off with 64 players. The 'swap teams' feature is also something to consider, a setting to have it disabled for 5 mins might be a good way to address it; as people only ever tend to quit the losing team. Sorting teams on points? - I don't think this is a reliable way of sorting due to how easy points are to aquire, spaming a med tank on a building (for example) requires very little skill and can bump you to the top of the team. Instead, I think the sorting should be focused on the K/D ratio -- a more reliable way of 'weighing up' player skill. I suppose a program could be written up to grab all the ratios of all the active players and put them in a temp database and begin placing them on teams starting from the highest to lowest alternating from GDI to nod. e.g. if player 1 had a K/D of 20 and player 2 had a K/D of 15 (top two) then the code would put player 1 in GDI and player 2 in nod, doing this until it reaches the bottom ranked K/D players.

Updated - 26th Jan, 2018

Most maps normally end up being a base locking snug fest, this can be painful if one team is down to one building with no hope of recovering -- in such games, I propose the commander getting a 'power' unlocked when only one building is standing, this power activates a timer (i.e. 15 mins) where the team has to defend while 'reinforcements' arrive, basically this is a gimic to give the other team a chance to win, as when the timer expires -- the other team loses. Just thought it would add purpose to a game, where you are simply waiting to lose -- food for thought?