Fun into misery.

[NFi]

I remember hearing about this game a while ago - think it was a mod at the time?  Loved Renegade even if it was a bit rough, I loved being in that world.

My first thoughts were really positive - everything is new and learning was enjoyable. Then I found myself in a 20 minute fight (in a total of ~40min game) where nothing happen, as in Nod had us stuck in a position we couldn't push forward and they were slowly, and I mean incredibly slowly pushing forward. They have tanks, so I go something to counter them - I feel like I'm just shooting a whole bunch of nothing. I'm doing damage, I see the health go down but they're repaired faster than it takes my second shot to come out. I mean I've heard of a bullet sponge games but this takes it to a totally different level.

Then the maps! Okay so I've only played 4 of them, not sure how many there are, but talk about keeping in the spirit of C&C. Every map I've played feels like a meat grinder and one dimensional. If it has verticality, it's so far from the single corridor that you get no advantage, or sight is completely blocked. The path's just feel totally disconnected and holding a location never seems to reward much in pushing forward, except for the odd mass rush. It seems like you get few options of attack. I don't know if this is because nod has such a huge advantage with stealth units in the game that too many options gives them an unfair advantage? I don't know. What is the idea behind the design of the maps? One path for vehicles, another for infantry?  If we push forward and claim a new location, why am I not given an advantage? Why does it feel like the only advantage comes for the other team who in no fault of their own, cause a stalemate because of how fast it is to accumulate battlefield strength? You spawn in the battlefield. 

You know what I hate the most in every beloved C&C game (we don't talk about 4). The engineers man - and holy crap I didn't think they could get anymore annoying. Is there any reduction when engineer's repair on a target being hit? They add nothing to the gameplay besides turning anything they touch into a machine of which health is irrelevant. Oh and because there is so little options to use verticality so you can look down and take them out, because the vehicle they're healing act as an invincible shield, they have such small windows to eliminate them - I found myself just sacrificing myself to just get a chance to kill one - which is really brutal if you're GDI. Just feels like a really unenjoyable reward loop.

The economy seems for the most part irrelevant? I usually had enough credits to spawn what I wanted in, win or lose in the battle. The first wave of combat feels good, then it's just a team shooter where you pick what you want. Units that are expensive and powerful are just so easy to get the game goes from low power level to a few minutes later being at max power level. There was this one time I got the most expensive unit I could buy, saw a box, ran over and collected it and actually got demoted to a worse unit?! I sure as hell am not running over those again.

If you've made it this far through, thanks for reading. I'm not trying to bash the game as much as draw some really huge flaws that don't for the most part see requiring a massive rethink of implementation of the programming. The maps I feel are a major let down. Apart from looking interesting (I see you UDK assets), they just feel uninspired and lack a gimmick. No real flow to the battlefield, a meter or two, it's all the same space - you're just now closer to the enemy. Set the bases next to each other with a small battlefield and it will result in the same choices and gameplay experience made by the players. I strongly believe a lot of the meat grinding experience can be changed with a rethought to map design. Give the tanks some room to breath. Give infantry options to ambush. Make it feel like there are choices other than brute force.

My 2 cents.

 

[Handepsilon]

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My first thoughts were really positive - everything is new and learning was enjoyable. Then I found myself in a 20 minute fight (in a total of ~40min game) where nothing happen, as in Nod had us stuck in a position we couldn't push forward and they were slowly, and I mean incredibly slowly pushing forward. They have tanks, so I go something to counter them - I feel like I'm just shooting a whole bunch of nothing. I'm doing damage, I see the health go down but they're repaired faster than it takes my second shot to come out. I mean I've heard of a bullet sponge games but this takes it to a totally different level.

What infantry/tank were you using? Are you accompanied by other players? Also, EMP grenades/commander strikes will reduce repair rate of tanks if they hit, in addition to stopping their movement completely. Otherwise, you really will need to take out the engineers first, and snipers are usually a preferable option. You can also try to flank them if you're both in the field.

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Then the maps! Okay so I've only played 4 of them, not sure how many there are, but talk about keeping in the spirit of C&C. Every map I've played feels like a meat grinder and one dimensional. If it has verticality, it's so far from the single corridor that you get no advantage, or sight is completely blocked. The path's just feel totally disconnected and holding a location never seems to reward much in pushing forward, except for the odd mass rush. It seems like you get few options of attack. I don't know if this is because nod has such a huge advantage with stealth units in the game that too many options gives them an unfair advantage? I don't know. What is the idea behind the design of the maps? One path for vehicles, another for infantry?  If we push forward and claim a new location, why am I not given an advantage? Why does it feel like the only advantage comes for the other team who in no fault of their own, cause a stalemate because of how fast it is to accumulate battlefield strength? You spawn in the battlefield. 

Not exactly sure which maps you played, though many of the OldRen's maps do have a lot of flaws in them (Walls, Islands, Under, Field, Canyon, Volcano). It's usually chosen a lot due to nostalgia tho. I myself am sick and tired of playing 24/7 Under

Though I'm not sure how you caused a lot of stalemates. To me the game is too snowball-y because whoever gets control of the field, most maps will reward them with ability to dominate enemy harvester (unless the tib field is in the base itself) and tech buildings, and it's hard to push through a siege.

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The economy seems for the most part irrelevant? I usually had enough credits to spawn what I wanted in, win or lose in the battle. The first wave of combat feels good, then it's just a team shooter where you pick what you want. Units that are expensive and powerful are just so easy to get the game goes from low power level to a few minutes later being at max power level. There was this one time I got the most expensive unit I could buy, saw a box, ran over and collected it and actually got demoted to a worse unit?! I sure as hell am not running over those again.

If you're playing Islands, then yes... that kind of thing happens really easily if you have Refinery alive. Also, try to keep away from the crates if you're high-level character. It's too risky and not worth it

[NFi]

I found myself in one map called, eyes? It was actually the way I felt like a map should be. Felt like you could do something - but still struggled with giving space to fights. Just seems like it comes down to one team camping?

I played another that has better elevation which I just played sniper and took my unbridled rage out on every engineer I saw. That game didn't last long, as in maybe a 20 min game which feels satisfying. 

I don't know about the whole commander thing though? I'll have to look into it more, but rarely did I find commanders doing much that I felt impacted the game.

Some games just came down to one team totally dominated and not doing anything to consolidate the win. While enough of the losing side is just begging for it to be over - those games just felt like dread to even stay for the next map. I get that it has to be fair with the surrender, but the defenders advantage seem's stronger than what a random bunch of players can face against. I can see in a situation where everyone listens this game would just be crazy fun and tactical. I look back at games that I've played in the past. Savage, Savage 2, Natural Selection, Natural Selection 2, and dare I say the battlefield games. Those games all had a breaking point where it was just too much to defend against. The balance of power would shift. I honestly felt like it rarely reached that tipping point. 

Has there been any consideration in cycling out some of the maps that seem to create stalemate situation? Do you guys record any data that shows what is happening with a lot of these maps? I've played for a day and very much noticing a tread. Although this mod has received a lot of new players recently so I can understand that it could be apart of growing pains. 

[NFi]

Also the EMP grenades. That's great and all, but getting an ambush off is extremely difficult and then capitalising seems to give not enough impact. The counter play to the meat grinder requires a lot of just really good positioning and timing which isn't always down to you having the initiative. 

I think I've just got to grind out a lot more games and see if there are more counter play options.

[Handepsilon]

Pretty sure some of us were considering about removing those stalemate maps like Under, but the other part of community would always rage against that decision.

Eyes itself is actually a community-made map, designed by DaKuja back in Beta 4

If you wish for a more organized game, we at the Discord server host Pickup Games every weekend, in which everyone can join as long as they can get there quick enough and is willing to at least listen to the team.

[NFi]

I'd love to catch one and get an idea of what to expect! Although being in Australia could make times difficult. 

With the consideration of removing maps. Yeah it's a difficult position. I don't think it's always clear what the community wants because when a change is being pondered those who don't want it will address it while those who either don't care or agree don't put forward their thoughts as a collective. So yeah, I don't know how you've put forward the idea but that's what has been my experience with change. Sometimes while the change is for the better, people get frustrated but if you give them something else as a replacement that's even better, then they will usually settle in.

 

[yosh56]

Just picking out a few points:

EMP grenades are there to keep the game from becoming world of tanks. They reduce repairs by a fairly large margin, though they require your team to pay attention and focus fire. 

Defender advantage is actually hard-countered by veterancy, as the offensive actions reward more VP than defensive actions. In most practical situations, this leads to the aggressive team being able to reach Elite/Heroic ranks, scaling their damage to levels that are nigh impossible to out repair. 

The general match time that was being developed for was about 30-45 minutes, with maps like Under or Field being closer to an hour to an hour and half. Gameplay wise the more stalemate maps just allow veterancy to do its thing. Every weapon is basically 'broken' at Heroic, and that's by design. It's not perfect by any means, and some people aren't down with the grind to heroic, but I at least find it fun. Not actually a fan of <20m games, but also can happily say veterancy keeps RenX from having too many 2+ hour matches, which is too much for even me. 

 

[NFi]

I don't mind long matches, provided a tug of war is happening or the map is dynamic. I feel like the chokes are too hard to push through for both sides. So you're basically stuck in a deathmatch until you get the damage to overwhelm the other team.  With very little ways to ambush and break the choke. I've felt like my options are spam the choke or repair.

I had a match just before where I totally fragged out even against the opponent. Try as much as I can, I couldn't shift the battle, even when I would clear an entire path.

What's the projections on getting max rank? KDA + time? Do I get more experience when killing higher players? The game within ~10mins (you'd know better than I would) seems to be enough time for a side to show who's got the most strength. Hypothetically if it takes ~50 mins to get to that rank, that's 40 mins of very limited progression on the map and a whole lot of just killing. This is all with the idea that it's a full pug server and getting everyone to listen is futile. 

I love the game and appreciate that you're just doing this for the love of it. Having your game revolve around killing, you have to make that feel really good in animation, sound, feedback. I feel like from my experience the only satisfaction I get is through getting headshots with the sniper - but that's a enjoyment I create myself not what the game gives me. Lots of games have done this in different ways. If getting up higher ranks is what you want to break the many stalemates, then why do I want to spend ~90% of my time getting there and ~10% of my time in reaping the rewards?

I don't know if it's me but it feels like the veterancy system corrects an issue that isn't that enjoyable, by then requiring players to continue playing in that state. Noticing the turn over rates in long games, a lot of people are jumping in and out quite a lot. Most of my games that have been left in this stalemate have turned to votes, surrender or map change - and depending on the situation I just leave because votes fall through and it just feels like punishment. 

[Havoc89]

There definitely is a lot of frustration in Renegade X. We briefly discussed addressing this specifically for Firestorm in the DevTalk. Most players prefer to play the classic remake maps over new ones that aren't as claustrophobic in their layout even though a lot of the non-remake maps do address choke points and base locking specifically. This is something we've struggled with in the base RenX game partially because at it's core it is a remake of the original game. There is a charm to keeping things somewhat similar to the original game, and deviating too much will take away from that charm and nostalgia. There is a balance that we have to find, that respects the original game, but also addressing major issues from the original game.

A lot of this is being addressed in Firestorm simply because its not a remake and we have the freedom to explore and alter things. Claustrophobic choke points, and isolated infantry or vehicle only areas are things we generally want to remove from the map design. Instead create a more balanced mixed combat setup along with key areas to help create points of contention to help make more of a tug of war style of play.

As per veterancy, that was introduced to help limit insanely long games that last way too long to help bring them to an end. This is another aspect that feels like its a necessary element to address 1.5h+ maps which was a huge problem before it was introduced. It is at the end of the day a bandaid fix for the core gameplay issues. Whether this system or something like it will be in Firestorm is another discussion we're having internally. With Firestorm we want to specifically address the core issues in a more robust manner. 

[NFi]

I never played Renegade online only the single player so a lot of this is new to me. I wonder how much of the audience is coming to the game because of just the brand over the game itself. I've always liked the idea of having boots on the ground in a C&C Universe.

You've basically covered what my impression have been in my gameplay experience, Havoc. It was clear the veternacy system was a bandaid fix. I understand now why you guys choose that option over redesign of other systems and mechanics. From my own experience in development if I see that the solution to a problem is to add a bandaid, I know the problem still exists and I need to address the root of the issue. I would imaging it has solved the game length, but I wonder if the game length was as much of an issue as the gameplay loops that help players perceive the options they had. I can play WoW for hours leveling even though my goal is so far away - the gameplay keeps my attention well enough that it doesn't feel like a chore. This isn't always the case of course but it's the general goal that the means of getting to the destination should be rewarding or as rewarding as the destination itself. 

I'm really keen to see how you guys tackle these problems in Firestorm. The issues in the current version of Renegade X are glaring to say the least but that's not always a bad thing, especially if you're working toward making those feedback loops more interesting. I honestly see something really beautiful in this game, just needs that love.

[Mystic~]

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There was this one time I got the most expensive unit I could buy, saw a box, ran over and collected it and actually got demoted to a worse unit?! I sure as hell am not running over those again.

It would be nice if finding a new character presented some sort of choice confirmation box, do you accept character 'xyz' before changing you, so it can be rejected if you already have something better or more suited to whatever you were planning, so maybe it spawns that characters weapon onto the ground and when you pick it up, it immediately changes your class to match. There are other booby trap crates which are actually quite annoying as well depending on circumstances, the nuclear strike will clear a large area, a timed detonation will wipe you out, a timed C4 charge will have you running to find a team vehicle to limit and share the damage done... I would honestly remove these kill-crates.

Most maps are based on choke points, but in terms of well spaced maps, try maps like Outposts, Reservoir, Eyes, Tunnels, Steppe and perhaps Whiteout, the cringe maps tend to be from the original game and include original Field and Under. Islands and Walls can also be bad, although I still enjoy these maps mostly for some reason  

Edited July 1, 2020 by Mystic~

[Handepsilon]

I honestly thought that character change is no longer plausible if you have paid class, except when changed character is a Spy