More Eyes Map feedback

[Mystic~]

I'm wondering why there is such easy access at the back of the Refinery at the Nod base for tanks to shoot through at the Obelisk, Refinery and Hand of Nod, but there isn't anything comparable for Nod to be able to do to GDI, sure they can infantry sneak through the tunnel if not spotted by a shooting AGT, but leading up to this route and in the tunnel itself is rarely clear and often well defended. I'm thinking either the Nod side needs covering up and turning into am enclosed tunnel cave similar to the GDI side of the map or the GDI side needs opening up into a gorge similar to the Nod side of the map OR potentially underneath the GDI road bridge gets opened up again like the earlier version allowing Nod tanks an extra access point seeing how so much of the field is often blocked by players whom know to scan for stealth tanks now.

Second moderate gripe, both the back infantry paths leading to both the NOD and GDI bases by way of the linking concrete bridge structure too easily provoke base defences, add on top of this defensive mining and a patrolling defender makes this route a really frustrating and often not viable way of infiltrating the base, getting a spy seems to be the most common but infrequent way of infiltrating. There possibly also needs to be more hiding spots on both sides to avoid a patrolling player or someone merely exiting the base this way.

Third gripe, on the Nod side of the map there's an external rising rock ramp that leads to the inner Tiberium cave catwalk and bunker, GDI snipers can camp this upper area and easily see directly through into the Nod base providing hours of sniper whoring fun, but there's no equivalent for Nod to do the same to GDI as the access path is inside the Tiberium cave and there's no overlooking open rock formation. Potentially, both sides snipers could be facing off one another in here.

Overall I think it's still a well made map that has lasted public scrutiny and I don't think maps necessarily need to be symmetrical mirror copies of one another, but it doesn't feel fair or balanced in terms of options at the moment for either side.

@DaKuja 

[DaKuja]

Thank you for your feedback, yes these points are particularly critical and I have been observing them for a long time. 
I have already made some changes in this regard, albeit minor ones. But this did not stop players from continuing to fire on Nod Ref. & HoN from the bridge.

Also the point with the infantry paths to the rear of the bases hasn't been very positive to me. 

I have been thinking about making some changes for a few weeks now to create a better balance. Unfortunately it will take some time, but there will be other changes made which are not specifically related to the balance of the teams.

The next update for the map will be more extensive and therefore a bit more critical, because I try to avoid new imbalances directly.

DaKuja

[crazfulla]

On a map with base defences you don't want a way into the base that is too easy. Look at Sunrise and the criticism I gave that map. The way people used the water to sneak the GDI WF is a tad unbalanced to me. Losing the Ref isn't the end of the world if you can hold the silo, but the Weps is kinda critical. But this is just a map with guard towers and turrets. Eyes has AGT and Obby. And losing the Power Plant is a big deal. Your base defences shut off and purchase prices increase significantly, making most high tier units unaffordable. Over time this can be the downfall of a team, especially when you are opening yourself up to SBH rushes.

So do I think the rear infantry path needs to be redressed? Nope. Not really. As long as it is equally difficult to walk both teams power plants.

Edit: As for GDI vehicles hitting Nod buildings from the bridge, this shouldn't be a big deal. The hole they have to shoot through is quite small, so really only one vehicle can shoot through it consistently at a time.

Edited February 18, 2020 by crazfulla

[Reivax]

10 hours ago, crazfulla said:

Look at Sunrise and the criticism I gave that map. The way people used the water to sneak the GDI WF is a tad unbalanced to me.

I never seen Nod boiz sneaking in WF on this map. Maybe cuz i only seen dead corpses on the ground killed by my volt rifle   

about Eyes, my main problem for this map is that i feel useless. my capacity to drive tank is teamhampering  i'm one of the worst tank players, i spend more time to try to unstuck my tank from trees/rocks/m8 than to attack enemies
as sniper, my aim is shit
as AT player, i'm easily boinked/splashed by enemy tanks/snipers
as Stank, i can't play because i've not enough space to manoeuver
as doza/mobi i'm totally useless because i've no area to work

so, if i'm GDI i will play gunner and i will shoot HON from the fun spot in tiberium cave - if tib cave is Nod, i'll play Havoc from the walls at base entrance
if i'm Nod, i'll play BHS and try to snipe ppl or stank to hunt MRLS/orcas/infantry

[Tytonium]

My biggest gripe with the map is that playing infantry is rather hellish. ( Which sucks for people like me who are vehicularly disabled.)

It is such a large map and infantry are hopelessly exposed at all times pretty much. There is no proper infantry path essentially. The caves suck for infantry because an MRLS or Arty can just blast you out of existence. The silo sucks because you are open to gey snipers, flying death apaches/orcas, and gey artys/mrls again.

This in turn makes it so that infantry players mainly have to play around their base. So if one team has primarily infantry players over vehicle players, they will likely be baselocked.

The back paths are far too chokepointy for infantry to sneak through. If you get one dipshit infantry to camp the back path bridge infantry sneak route then you are completely safe, and its common for people to do this because of the crate that spawns back there.

Although if a team neglects their back paths it is very fun what both teams can do. Sneaking inf can get to EVERY building on this map if they do the right moves on GDI. For NOD, it is a lot harder and requires quite a bit of luck, but every building is reachable if you know the secret strategy.

TL;DR - Find some way to make infantry more viable and less exposed so that they can help in the offensive. Right now infantry are only defensive (cept for SBH). This would mean somehow making snipers less viable and making vehicle's firing on infantry more difficult.

[crazfulla]

21 minutes ago, Tytonium said:

TL;DR - Find some way to make infantry more viable and less exposed so that they can help in the offensive. Right now infantry are only defensive (cept for SBH). This would mean somehow making snipers less viable and making vehicle's firing on infantry more difficult.

Some more rocks and derilict vehicles in the field would be a good starting point then perhaps. Most infantry that dares to leave base (which is usually only ever 1 or 2 people) tends to hang around the Tiberium cave, since it has an infantry only area. You can hold the silo while defending against long range MRLS/Arty bombardment. The rest of the map is wide open and offers little in the way of cover so completely understandable players don't want to hang around in the open. Though I wouldn't say go as crazy in making terrain obstructions as say Toxicity.

[Mystic~]

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The back paths are far too chokepointy for infantry to sneak through. If you get one dipshit infantry to camp the back path bridge infantry sneak route then you are completely safe, and its common for people to do this because of the crate that spawns back there.

It is such a large map and infantry are hopelessly exposed at all times pretty much. There is no proper infantry path essentially. 

I agree with the above.

I think the 1990s Command and Conquer era universe still requires the use of plenty of sandbags, bunkers and trenches to get around due to the risk of snipers. The tunnels map is quite nice to play on the field with infantry for this reason, although getting outside the perimeter of your own base to begin with is the challenge, the rear infantry paths make this more achievable. 

On Eyes, most of the infantry only accessible areas can also be covered by tanks or air vehicles and you are very open and exposed to enemy snipers. The rear infantry access routes into both bases are too easily defended due to main base defences sensing you and usually if you are Nod you run into a solider exiting or Patch and if you are GDI you run into a solider exiting or camping SBH expecting sneakers.

Even without primary base defences people should know how to defend buildings by now as this is what Walls is all about.

[Tommy]

21 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

Even without primary base defences people should know how to defend buildings by now as this is what Walls is all about.

But this isn't Walls, it's Eyes. Different map, different playstyle. The buildings on Walls are also much closer together and there's only one main enterance where tanks can get in. Losing base defences on Eyes almost always means losing the map if the other team isn't already crippled in some way. Walls also has 2 SAM Sites/AA Towers which cover pretty much every area around the base unlike the single SAM Site/AA Tower on Eyes

Edited February 20, 2020 by Cynthia
Additional text

[Mystic~]

I think the Ob and AGT are probably the least important buildings to lose on this map, they're a nice thing to have, but they're not required for the continuation of the game so long as people are prepared to defend. I think the GDI base size is still roughly equivalent to that of their base on Walls. Eyes probably ought to have as many anti-aircraft defences as Lakeside, Walls, Whiteout etc.

[crazfulla]

Agree, I'd much rather lose an AGT or Ob than any other structure (not counting superfluous ones like the repair pad). It can add an extra dynamic to the match if the enemy can just walk in at any time - you have to watch every entry point, not just the rear Power Plant path. Bit more of a hassle but far from impossible since you still have income and both production structures in that scenario. Also the AGT and Obelisk aren't that fantastic anyway given that their line of fire is obstructed by the huge walls in front of the bases.

As for a million anti air defences,  they shouldn't be necessary really. you have a main defence structure plus two smaller ones (GTs and turrets), which walls does not have. Plus it doesn't take much to bring down an orca or apache.

[crazfulla]

[Mystic~]

Quote

As for a million anti air defences,  they shouldn't be necessary really. you have a main defence structure plus two smaller ones (GTs and turrets), which walls does not have. Plus it doesn't take much to bring down an orca or apache.

I don't think the Oberlisk should be able to shoot aircraft given it never did this in the original strategy game and Nod has the best anti-aircraft SAM sites in the games. However the AGT could strike aircraft with missiles only but not with any of the sighted guns (did they exist), but this was never as effective as the sams. I think taking down air defences as mini objectives earlier on is quite fun and rewarding to later plays. Whilst Nod has the SBH to work in teams, Havoc functions as an awful Commando unit as he doesn't carry enough C4.

[Reivax]

On 2/18/2020 at 8:06 PM, Tytonium said:

There is no proper infantry path essentially. The caves suck for infantry because an MRLS or Arty can just blast you out of existence. The silo sucks because you are open to gey snipers, flying death apaches/orcas, and gey artys/mrls again.

Welcome to Tunnels/Outposts/flying_Lakeside/XMountain/Arctic Stronghold/Eyes/Cliff Side
at least on Toxicity i love to play as tank, and on Outposts i love to play as stank

On 2/19/2020 at 8:17 PM, Mystic~ said:

I think the 1990s Command and Conquer era universe still requires the use of plenty of sandbags, bunkers and trenches to get around due to the risk of snipers.

@mappers please add sandbags everywhere
sandbaaaags
to let me take cover behind them safety from enemy snipers to write "ayaya" or "meooow" in chat

 

18 hours ago, Mystic~ said:

I think the Ob and AGT are probably the least important buildings to lose on this map, they're a nice thing to have, but they're not required for the continuation of the game so long as people are prepared to defend.

"so long as people are prepared to defend." it's why base defenses are necessary, since hotwires are stealthed
wait, hotwire isn't stealth? how a solo hotwire can sneak airstrip on Eyes without been seen

 

10 hours ago, crazfulla said:

by at least one boi in a 32-plyr team? o_O



@crazfulla u forgot smth: they start blaming eachother after surrended  

[Tommy]

In orginal Renegade the Obelisk actually does shoot aircraft. SAM Sites and AA Towers are equal on their stats at recruit level (1 clip of SAM or AA Tower does 300 damage which equals the damage of an Obelisk shot)