Idea for Mutator: Turret and Sensor Construction/Spawning?

[MajorLunaC]

*Idea Summary:

- Deployable Automated (AI) Turrets - Outdoors and/or Indoors. Team limits (like mines/vehicles) and/or purchasable. Very Visible, Destroyable.

- Deployable Sensors - Highlight Enemies vividly in a range for team, including SBH. Team limits (like mines/vehicles) and/or purchasable. Very Visible, Destroyable.

- Map indicators of assets, including mines, turrets, sensors. Also personal, team waypoints.

I'm thinking these items would help with some of the balance issues, although damage of other things, like the normal base defenses, would have to be tweaked/lessened.

*Deployable Automated (AI) Turrets - Some Outdoor and/or Indoor turrets. Mostly, these would be to deal with enemies that sneak into the base completely unnoticed by anyone else. It's simply a matter of numbers, attention and timing that prevents a reasonable defense. If you don't have good levels of ALL of those ALL the time, your base WILL be gone in 60 secs. Mines don't cut it, and it's hard to tell if and where they're gone. Players simply can't be relied on for anything. Distributing the defense would allow a more fair defense system.

The turrets themselves can be any one or more of the current AI turrets, like the Ceiling Turrets, (lesser) Guard Towers, and NOD Defense Turrets. The damage of all turrets, including the ones included on the map, would likely have to be decreased to maintain the same level of defense, just more distributed, preferably along the lines of many turrets that are weaker, so the entire defense doesn't fall apart at once. Think of it as "decentralization of defense".

The turrets would need to have Team limits (like mines/vehicles), set by the server, and/or be purchasable. Like mines, they could also be moved, preferably (think noob spamming turrets in the middle of nowhere). Of course, to balance things, they would be Very Visible, and Destroyable, although with effort. In essence, it demands that Techs constantly maintain good turret networks, or else the base goes down.

It would also require enemies to work as teams, so that it's not a 1-man completely-silent wrecking crew that it is now (1 Tech or 1 SBH or 1 Disguised). Instead, a tech would need to disarm any mines, covered by an ally, and then they would both have to take out any defense turrets inside (or take out the turrets outside first, if they're only or also outside). This would actually take "tactics" instead of just mad rushes with just a bunch of fools, hoping at least 1 will make it to blow up an entire building.

As I understand it, this should probably be possible according to the statement from the devs that turrets are just stationary vehicles. I wish I could do it, but I use Linux, and although the game works well through Wine, this may be pushing it. Of course, I need to brush up on coding too, considerably. I really don't care for credit, I only care about a better balance.

*Deployable Sensors - Highlight Enemies vividly in a set range for the entire team, including enemy SBH. Basically paint big red flashing dots on the hud, even indicating off-screen along the edges, where enemies are, even through buildings and at the other end of the base. The dot would disappear (or get much smaller) when a set distance from the enemy (preferably settable in client options).

Of course, they would be Very Visible (even spinning like radar to draw attention) and destroyable with some effort. Team limits (like mines/vehicles) and/or purchasable, although preferably more weaker ones, so you don't lose all sensor ability in one go. It again requires Techs to maintain a good network of sensors, and enemies to actually put effort into sneaking into a base (think Splinter Cell game, where you take out enemies and lights as you sneak into an enemy base).

This may be possible considering the current spotting abilities, but I really don't know. Hopefully.

*Map indicators of assets, including mines, turrets, sensors. This is important in maintaining defense grids of said turrets and sensors, indicating if they're working and their range of attack/detection (toggle options to view, more or less). Last I checked I don't remember any way to view the entire full-sized map, so this would need to be added, likely an expanded view of the corner map.

It would also be nice to put some stuff on the map, like waypoints to meet up at or attack or deploy things: Personal waypoints, team waypoints, that would again show up as some sort of glowing dot on the hud.

This may be possible with the current mini-map and spotting system, but I really don't know. Hopefully.

I think it would be worthwhile to at least test this out, to see if it can help. It's really frustrating defending with all you've got and then boom, out of nowhere it blows to smithereens unexpectedly (sometimes even unnoticeably due to a scuffle you're in), likely from just a single enemy getting in through a well-mined door. Perfect defense or nothing, is not a game. It's torture, or at least for me. With what I recommend, there would be some leeway, and it would be forgiving, without being over-powered (it would definitely be defeatable, especially with some effort). Mind you, it would require plenty of tweaking, lots of things, maybe everything, but that can definitely be sorted out in time.

Please someone consider this as a potential solution for balance and defense/attack issues.

[Boemanerds]

In my opinion, I feel like the deployable sensors would disrupt any sneak attack made by ether team. Although annoying for GDI, I find it very satisfying to pull of a successful SBH attack on a building. (Sorry, not sorry) The turret idea sounds ok, although it shouldn't be able to protect a building by its lonesome.

[MajorLunaC]

In my opinion, I feel like the deployable sensors would disrupt any sneak attack made by ether team.

Yeah that's kind of the idea: To stop sneak attacks that meet 0 resistance, making it effortless to single-handedly walk in and blow up an entire building within 60 seconds, with no one even noticing. But they would be big, moving, and obvious, as well as pretty easy to kill. I would expect snipers to kill it in 1 shot, if visible, and anyone else reasonably. It would encourage people to use actual team work, and not rush in alone. 1 guy kills off the sensors, the other sneaks in. If the sensor network is placed badly (maybe as an enemy you get to see the predicted sensor ranges on the map, so you can sneak in where there is no cover), you don't even have to worry much. If you pass through the sensor range quickly enough, you might not even be noticed, although I expect some sort of sound alert too, to anyone in base range.

Although annoying for GDI, I find it very satisfying to pull of a successful SBH attack on a building. (Sorry, not sorry)

Yes, well I can tell you it's very ... "unsatisfying" ... to see a SBH walk into a building and blow it up by himself, completely unhindered, often never noticed in or out (another terrifying thing, that the enemy just walks out too).

The turret idea sounds ok, although it shouldn't be able to protect a building by its lonesome.

Any why not? No one else is around 90%+ of the time, and ever fewer of those would notice or detect a SBH, and even fewer would act on it, and EVEN FEWER would succeed in taking down a SBH in a surprise attack. It's certainly not invincible, and you would definitely get some shots off and cause damage, but by yourself, you should NEVER be able to take out a turret, otherwise there's no point to the turret. Again, use team-work, even if it's another SBH. No one person should ever be able to take out a building, unless that team is a bunch of bumbling idiots that can't disarm the nuke (the only thing 1 person should be able to effectively use to kill a building by themselves).

Try defending as a tech ... a lot. And see how it is. (A LOT)

[Boemanerds]

Highlight Enemies vividly in a set range for the entire team, including enemy SBH. Basically paint big red flashing dots on the hud, even indicating off-screen along the edges, where enemies are, even through buildings and at the other end of the base. The dot would disappear (or get much smaller) when a set distance from the enemy (preferably settable in client options).

This is why I say I disagree with the sensors, at least on how you put it here. I feel that letting the entire team know exactly where a intruder would be via a dot on screen would be way overpowered. I feel that if the sensor beeped like the ion/nuclear beacon, but louder instead would be balanced better.

Yes, well I can tell you it's very ... "unsatisfying" ... to see a SBH walk into a building and blow it up by himself, completely unhindered, often never noticed in or out (another terrifying thing, that the enemy just walks out too).

I have not seen(At least in my time playing) a single SBH take down a building at any health. Whenever I try a solo attack as a SBH, I usual get gunned down the instant I set foot into the building. I usually see these rushes done with 3-6 SBH at once. Plus if I was to see a SBH walk into one of my buildings, I would be doing everything I could to stop him.(Shotguners work very well in buildings)

The turret idea sounds ok, although it shouldn't be able to protect a building by its lonesome.

I should elaborate on this. When I say it shouldn't be able to protect a building by its lonesome, I mean that it shouldn't be able to defend against entire assaults like the watchtower. I feel that even if the turret was destoryable by a single person, other players would rush to the defense of the building due to them hearing the gunfire.

No one person should ever be able to take out a building...

If your team is even trying to win, its already impossible to attack a building by your lonesome and expect to succeed, even with a nuke.

Try defending as a tech ... a lot. And see how it is. (A LOT)

Whenever I defend I usually grab a repair tool and use that after I fought off the intruders, unless the timer is quite low on the C4/ion/nuke, then I switch to a engi.

[RoundShades]

Not to derail your thread, but what about doors with healthbars? Functioning ones, that only open for that team (and to throw in a wildcard, spies?). Have about 20 "MCT-based" health that can be destroyed by anything, as well as be "disarmed by repair-gun". Respawns 15 seconds after being destroyed. That would open some strategy. Just something that this thread reminded me of.

Flexible to place low-tier turrets that you can get creative with, 1 per customer and 2 per team max, would be neat as well. Even current guard tower and turrets are pretty easy to crack, even with infantry.

[MajorLunaC]

This is why I say I disagree with the sensors, at least on how you put it here. I feel that letting the entire team know exactly where a intruder would be via a dot on screen would be way overpowered. I feel that if the sensor beeped like the ion/nuclear beacon, but louder instead would be balanced better.

Yeah, I don't even like the nuke/ion beacon beeps. I have trouble pinpointing which building it is as it is ... I guess directional sound setup isn't 100%, and besides, it doesn't beep fast enough to pinpoint well. It's a wonder anyone can hear them, with tank shells and rockets being fired everywhere all the time.

I say it's important to not rely on sound alone to find anything. As a better solution, the sensors would be large enough that you can only put them outside (I don't think there's any indoor/outdoor designation as I can drive vehicles in the Weapons Factory). This would make it SO MUCH easier to spot and destroy. It's not overpowered because right now it's all or nothing. Either you're completely undetectable by anyone except by random chance that rarely happens (SBH), or you're visible (any other unit) although still not really detectable much of the time. I consider it ridiculous, where it's "Hide and Seek", except enemies are invisible often, you have to cover a large area (1-2 Techs cover entire base area usually by themselves!), even if you find them you still have to kill them VERY quickly (Tech vs SBH ... I bet on the SBH 90% of the time), and if you don't find them or kill them immediately, your building is gone (no voice till respawn, so no response).

Not to mention, usually multiple buildings are often being attacked by infantry OR from afar at once. You expect 1-2 Techs and MAYBE a couple of Engineers to be around in the right place and defend the entire base all the time!? Oh you think other teammates will help, especially when there are less players on the server? Oh, haha, very funny (more like a really bad joke to me).

I have not seen(At least in my time playing) a single SBH take down a building at any health. Whenever I try a solo attack as a SBH, I usual get gunned down the instant I set foot into the building. I usually see these rushes done with 3-6 SBH at once. Plus if I was to see a SBH walk into one of my buildings, I would be doing everything I could to stop him.(Shotguners work very well in buildings)

I don't think they changed the timed C4 much since Beta 3, from what I can tell. Yeah, I was too busy taking out vehicles on a map without any map base defenses to even notice a SBH taking out my Tiberium Ref. I think you need more practice using a SBH, but you should start by trying to sneak into the enemy base with a VISIBLE character, to put some C4. When you can do that well, THEN you can use a SBH well. Regular characters sneak into my base so many times, and I still have trouble detecting them in ANY way. Again, very blind hide and seek versus many destructive enemies.

The turret idea sounds ok, although it shouldn't be able to protect a building by its lonesome.

I should elaborate on this. When I say it shouldn't be able to protect a building by its lonesome, I mean that it shouldn't be able to defend against entire assaults like the watchtower. I feel that even if the turret was destoryable by a single person, other players would rush to the defense of the building due to them hearing the gunfire.

As I said, way too reliant on flimsy audio, and not everyone has perfect hearing you know. I would definitely say this game is not for the hearing-impaired, not that it would usually help. Gunfire is the LAST thing you can hear, hardly audible even when it's quiet. I can guarantee you 99% of gamers can at least see in black-and-white.

A turret should be able to take out 1-2 people in an assault. The mines would take care of some more. The player defense would be the rest. Again, it shouldn't be "All or Nothing" in defense or offense. If you attack with an engineer or tech with you, you have a mine-disarmer and healer with you. If you're one too, you have double the healing and anti-building power.

If your team is even trying to win, its already impossible to attack a building by your lonesome and expect to succeed, even with a nuke.

As I said, been there, done that. Also like I said, calling it a "team" is very generous. It's usually a bunch of bumbling fools doing whatever they feel like, even just hopping around shooting at the ground and the sky (a few too many of those lately).

Generally, you sneak in when an ally is attacking and distracting them, and away from view at that.

Whenever I defend I usually grab a repair tool and use that after I fought off the intruders, unless the timer is quite low on the C4/ion/nuke, then I switch to a engi.

So much is about timing, and getting from one place to another in time, just running on foot in a very large base. I really wish I had a jet pack to speed along the ground and in the air, even for a little while. Maybe even just a speed booster. Don't tell me to use a vehicle. Using a vehicle in your own base to travel, especially when there are no map defenses, is like leaving a Ferrari with the keys inside and the door wide open at night in New York on a bad street, unattended. Except it's even worse, because a Ferrari doesn't usually have lethal or even tank guns/rockets.

Not to derail your thread, but what about doors with healthbars? Functioning ones, that only open for that team (and to throw in a wildcard, spies?). Have about 20 "MCT-based" health that can be destroyed by anything, as well as be "disarmed by repair-gun". Respawns 15 seconds after being destroyed. That would open some strategy. Just something that this thread reminded me of.

Flexible to place low-tier turrets that you can get creative with, 1 per customer and 2 per team max, would be neat as well. Even current guard tower and turrets are pretty easy to crack, even with infantry.

The doors idea is pretty interesting, but ultimately it's even weaker than mines, since it does 0 damage. Tell me, would a locked door stop a SWAT team from busting in and gunning?

I absolutely disagree about the "1 per customer and 2 per team max". There need to be many, even if they're weaker. 1 per customer means if you're the only Tech, you only get 1 turret. Even if you would have more, most wouldn't realize they have them, much less put them, much less put them in good places. As I said, many weaker ones, movable (like disarm mines), would be ideal, for so many reasons. And again, there are large base turrets and small ceiling turrets. Their limits can be separate, so you could have a TEAM limit of 3-4 large base turrets (bases are large often, so can be map limit, but changeable by the server per each map or universally), and 6-8 smaller ceiling turrets (much less damage, but deadly if not all killed quickly enough). You realize most could be taken out from afar reasonably, even indoors (one keeps the door open, the other shoots rockets in, preferably one being able to heal and disarm mines).

[RoundShades]

The doors idea is pretty interesting, but ultimately it's even weaker than mines, since it does 0 damage. Tell me, would a locked door stop a SWAT team from busting in and gunning?

I absolutely disagree about the "1 per customer and 2 per team max". There need to be many, even if they're weaker. 1 per customer means if you're the only Tech, you only get 1 turret. Even if you would have more, most wouldn't realize they have them, much less put them, much less put them in good places.

The doors are metal. They won't stop an enemy, but an enemy must do 30% the damage they'd have to do to a MCT, to the door, and with coding trigger a "building attack" message as well. SBH for instance, would have to fire, in order to even get in, or sacrifice a timed c4. Either one is loud, c4 a bit shorter a time to react to.

Ask for the turrets, it would only take 2 well placed guard towers, to catch any SBH heading into any of the 8 doors in GDI's base.

[MajorLunaC]

The doors are metal. They won't stop an enemy, but an enemy must do 30% the damage they'd have to do to a MCT, to the door, and with coding trigger a "building attack" message as well. SBH for instance, would have to fire, in order to even get in, or sacrifice a timed c4. Either one is loud, c4 a bit shorter a time to react to.

Ask for the turrets, it would only take 2 well placed guard towers, to catch any SBH heading into any of the 8 doors in GDI's base.

That is true, an early alarm system and delay (and resource use) for the enemy would be helpful. The 15-second reload time might be problematic though. How long does it take a tech to disarm 2-3 mines from outside the door? Maybe reload in 1 minute, or have them require repair (I would want auto-repair, but to be fair, maybe manual repair would be the way to go ... or both but slow auto-repair).

But I still lean toward some sensors, just for strategic design of a base ... best strategy wins, not just best repairer wins.

The number of turrets needed depends entirely on the map. On some maps, not even 6 turrets would cover things.

[RoundShades]

That is true, an early alarm system and delay (and resource use) for the enemy would be helpful. The 15-second reload time might be problematic though. How long does it take a tech to disarm 2-3 mines from outside the door? Maybe reload in 1 minute, or have them require repair (I would want auto-repair, but to be fair, maybe manual repair would be the way to go ... or both but slow auto-repair).

Oh, no, that isn't quite what I meant. I meant it replaces itself in 15 seconds once destroyed. It can be repaired, but when damaged open, it closes at full health in 15 seconds. It only needs to be forced open for 15 seconds once per infiltration, so auto-replacement offers the most leeway to the defender.

[MajorLunaC]

That is true, an early alarm system and delay (and resource use) for the enemy would be helpful. The 15-second reload time might be problematic though. How long does it take a tech to disarm 2-3 mines from outside the door? Maybe reload in 1 minute, or have them require repair (I would want auto-repair, but to be fair, maybe manual repair would be the way to go ... or both but slow auto-repair).

Oh, no, that isn't quite what I meant. I meant it replaces itself in 15 seconds once destroyed. It can be repaired, but when damaged open, it closes at full health in 15 seconds. It only needs to be forced open for 15 seconds once per infiltration, so auto-replacement offers the most leeway to the defender.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "reload", sorry, it's hard to describe. But again, it's too short to disarm mines. People will complain (not me).

[RoundShades]

The number of turrets needed depends entirely on the map. On some maps, not even 6 turrets would cover things.

Not sure there are maps that 6 turrets wouldn't cover, that is like 1 per building plus 1 extra. However, some would need 2 and some would need 4, true.

[Madkill40]

If I could spawn a turret I'd rather spawn a gun emplacement that I could use.

Edit: Gun Emplacements in C&C Renegade:

"The entire system was designed to be airdropped by aircraft into Nod positions"

Remove the paradrop )because it's too technical(

Maybe just have gun emplacements deployable from the engineer directly instead of creating complications with a chinook appearing inside the face of a cliff and this could also take the remote c4 away because its still a hindrance to gameplay, of course the engineers armour will need a bigger nerf. The Emplacement should be undeployable once placed, limited to one per player, maximum of 6 per team, minimum distance from each other would be the distance of a mammoth tank from corner to corner and lastly, it can't be placed under a ceiling of about 1 and a half infantry in height.

Two birds, one stone.

I'm sure Yosh would love to do something awesome like the implementation of this.

[MajorLunaC]

Not sure there are maps that 6 turrets wouldn't cover, that is like 1 per building plus 1 extra. However, some would need 2 and some would need 4, true.

Remember that each building usually has 2 entrances (Hand has many more) pointed in different directions (except barracks). On some maps the building are so spread apart and at odd angles, it would require more than 4. This is talking about outdoor ones. The smaller ones would require more because there should be 2 per building at least, so that all turrets don't get taken out at once. Again, I want more turrets to prevent the defense from falling all at once. I would rather have 10 turrets that do 1 damage each than 1 turret that does 10 damage. It takes more time and effort to destroy each individual turret and enemies will be shot at while destroying turrets.

As for gun emplacements, they would be nice to have too, but NOT a replacement. The whole problem in the first place, the whole reason I want turrets and sensors, is because of the lack of even remotely reliable manpower. There just aren't enough people around to defend, and they probably wont at all or badly even if they are there. I don't want to rely on humans. Tell me what percent of the time are the gun emplacements ALL occupied on a map? By someone that can do a good job defending?

Oh, and again, team limit is fine, but individual limit is not.