Your Top building killing infantry vs the MCT

[yosh56]

Excluding C4 (Hotties and Techs) I just want to see if anyone else sees anything wrong with these numbers.

This is the weapon's TTK vs a building WITHOUT using the infantry's timed C4. I didn't include weapons that can't solo a building (save for the last one because it's kind of funny)

#1 Rocket Soldier at 44 seconds

#2 is shared by two candidates with the Volt Rifle and Grenadier clocking in at 45 seconds. Fun fact, it takes 36 grenades to the MCT to bring it down.

#3 Gunner at 47 seconds [taking 31 rockets to kill at the MCT]

#4 Laser Chaingun at 58 seconds

#5 The Chem-Trooper.... he takes 1 minute and 10 seconds to get the building down to 1% and not even kill it without using C4 =(

Just FYI, and because I'm fairly certain there's a SMALL problem in the tier system here.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Guest

[SFJake]

Hard to say when you don't have all the numbers of this game -and- the original Renegade at hand.

I think the Chem Trooper is far too weak against buildings, though.

[Ardente]

How have you done 51seconds with the Laser Chaingun? It took me 58sec and full ammo. Tried it twice and twice 58sec.

Anyway. It's kinda sad.. a single Gunner does 69% Dmg in 1min 02sec with fullammo (42Rockets) and a single Rocket Soldier 64% Dmg in 54sec with full ammo (17 Rockets). I guess the Rocket Soldier is the new rusher.. lol

(Attack position was as close as possible to the building - Like zero (0) travel time)

[RoundShades]

Idk, different tiers have weapons intended for this sort of thing but aren't as practical or powerful across other applications.

Grenadier has short range cap and can only situationally address other enemies.

Laser chaingun is almost OP in other situations.

Volt Rifle now has a secondary, have you measured it in this case?

PIC/Rail has higher damage per shot so if you have more people you can kill it rather fast in the time between 2-3 shots.

Rocket Soldiers are just cheap PIC without hitscan and ammo and AOE (like Xenoverse Death Ball versus Special Beam Cannon).

Chem trooper is a really powerful cheap class, most of Nod's tools shine in the cheap area, which is why they have the most comeback potential when lacking credits or vehicles, it is a huge asset on Volcano.

I miss gunner having more building killing potential as from old Renegade, maybe make his clip fire faster and shots have more damage, but the shots travel slower limiting even medium range tunnel use to trying to land a lucky missile on a ground?

[Ap2000]

LC is a good unit, just not against buildings, but against infantry and vehicles (defending the entrance as a LC racks up so many points).

Not every class needs to be viable at destroying buildings.

I guess the Rocket Soldier is the new rusher.. lol

I personally feel the rocket soldier and officer both got a big buff and are now viable to use in general (they weren't that interesting in b3).

However, this made all the mid-tier units (Patch, Gunner etc.) less interesting for me personally.

On the other hand, the RenX gunner always seemed weak for the price. I'd give him one less rocket in the mag, but each rocket do more damage. This way, if you happen to encounter enemy infantry, aiming is more important.

Hard to say when you don't have all the numbers of this game -and- the original Renegade at hand.

I think the Chem Trooper is far too weak against buildings, though.

He doesn't need any other numbers than a clock and trying it out on a building.

Making chem better against vehicle/buildings and weaker against infantry could be interestintg. But then you can easily rush a building with just 3~4 chems (this actually happened to me yesterday).

[RoundShades]

Gunner specifically, patch has the laser chaingun esque viability against all makes and models of hostiles...

...So gunner, like in old ren, could use a decrease of viability against infantry (he already has a small bit) for an increase in viability against structure and armor. I would even settle for it just being against structure, although a PROJECTILE SPEED DECREASE would give infantry the biggest chance against it at non-point-blank (just carry a trusty sidearm) and vehicles a fair chance against it if not clustered and/or siege-mode.

That would give gunner the ability to be killed easily, as well as huge potential as a cost effective tank siege defense, and his classic glory days building-melter. How much would his damage have to be buffed to achieve volt-rifle tier building damage, 20%?

So I present that idea, only because I LOVE patch having his field-antiarmor and anti-infantry role, and gunner having his old blob-antiarmor and anti-structure role.

Rypel said this new patcher presents the opportunity to test out balance. This means I can hope

[yosh56]

Hard to say when you don't have all the numbers of this game -and- the original Renegade at hand.

I think the Chem Trooper is far too weak against buildings, though.

This isn't about OldRen at all though, it's just about the best building-killers in-game. And yes, Beta4 haphazardly nerfed the Chem-soldier AND the Flametrooper against buildings.

How have you done 51seconds with the Laser Chaingun? It took me 58sec and full ammo. Tried it twice and twice 58sec.

Anyway. It's kinda sad.. a single Gunner does 69% Dmg in 1min 02sec with fullammo (42Rockets) and a single Rocket Soldier 64% Dmg in 54sec with full ammo (17 Rockets). I guess the Rocket Soldier is the new rusher.. lol

(Attack position was as close as possible to the building - Like zero (0) travel time)

Truth... need to edit that. Not sure how I got 51... but unfortunately that just makes matters worse.

I'm aware not all units are supposed to be good at everything, as Gunner has the advantage of being short-range anti-infantry whereas the rocket soldier does not. Still, he is supposed to be the building-killer for GDI in terms of infantry.

On the note of infantry, Nod's are supposedly supposed to be better, though in reality GDI probably has it easier winning tunnel wars with Gunner and Grenadiers just being able to spam AOE. I wouldn't mind Gunner getting a nerf towards his AOE in favour of a slight increase to building-killing power. Maybe just enough to make him do a true 10% to the outside of a building, and a true 20% to the MCT with one magazine.

PS. Didn't we supposedly have the issue of the rocket soldier being better against buildings than Gunner back in beta 1???

[RoundShades]

PS. Didn't we supposedly have the issue of the rocket soldier being better against buildings than Gunner back in beta 1???

Aye. But Gunner got buffed a bit.

Also, Chem definitely got stronger and McFarland definitely got weaker. Both are good ish, closer to each other, and both are bad against buildings no? If Nod needs building killer, BOTH have the rocket soldier.

And for Gunner, I can agree with you entirely, especially on the 10% building damage per clip. Still though, they don't HAVE to be building killer just like Patch doesn't do the same thing. They were in classic ren. But, unlike other changes, I feel about 80% strongly torwards Gunner being more like classic. Patch being changed to LCG variant/equivalent just makes me feel stronger, as Gunner needs that to be LESS like current Patch. If Patch just has longrange pelting ability, Gunner just needs clunky slow traveling devastating hits.

Otherwise, he is just Patch with a different rof/damage/clip ratio. A less consistent one. A worse one. Like, if you chose him, you are doing close range tunnel brawling and can lead missiles to headshots, or you accidentally misclicked trying to select Patch.

[RokumanZA]

Interesting numbers... Clearly this should not be the case that grenadiers equal volts, and rockets are still top

[yosh56]

Interesting numbers... Clearly this should not be the case that grenadiers equal volts, and rockets are still top

Indeed, but they ARE just numbers. The Grenadier being better than saay Gunner doesn't take into account that the Grenadier can't defend itself against infantry at far range, nor can it shoot across the map like Gunner. It also has less health so it can't survive a fully mined door (even by detonating them through the wall), which is something that Mobius and Gunner both can do. Oddly enough, the new Grenadier isn't all that bad at CQC though with infantry.

The Rocket soldier being the absolute best is the only one I see a TRUE problem with, as it takes away from the asymmetric aspect of Ren, being that both sides have their advantages and disadvantages. GDI is SUPPOSED to be winning the pure damage numbers game, while having the Rocket soldier sit on top means that both GDI and Nod are equal in their abilities to decimate a building. Nod already has the SBH C4 method over GDI; GDI was supposed to have Gunner rushes over Nod, as the Gunner rush is an outright brute-force tactic. I feel like sightly nerfing Gunner against infantry (holy hell he take no effort) by possibly giving him self splash damage or by some other means, would justify us bumping him up to either being more effective than the rocket soldier, or nerf the Rocket soldier a bit vs. buildings. I'd honestly prefer a Gunner that's better at what he's made for, and worse at the things he's not made for.

The LCG isn't in need of being any better at building destruction, as he's already really good at what he does (mowing through infantry...though his spread nerf in beta 4 may have been slight overkill).

The Volt rifle got a slight nerf with its ROF, but it's still obviously VERY powerful against buildings.