Balance Issues Discussion Beta 2

[MajorLunaC]

I'd like to discuss (not "argue" or abusively flame) some of the issues I've encountered in terms of balance. I know that much of RenX is based on the original C&C: Renegade balance, but that wasn't really very balanced. I weclome any sensible discussion on these topics, although do try to consider the perspective of a lone tech having to defend an entire base, as is too often the case. Also, the intent of a game is for EVERYONE to have fun, not just a few. The following is from numerous, repetative experiences online.

*Don't Rely On The Infinite Wisdom Of Noobs, Especially In A Small Game

One of the main aspects of the balance and function of RenX is that it relies on a large number of players being present AND active in game usually, and at least 50% of those to be competent and willing enough to defend and attack properly, according to the situation at the time. When server numbers drop to 20 and below, all balance fails, meaning the pros annihilate the noobs in a few minutes. So the main idea is, most of the defense, relies on the players, which are rarely good at defense, especially when there are fewer players on.

I consider that a bad idea, because it means a good game can only be a full game. I've always thought the Renegade model was shamefully lacking in automated base defenses compared to the rest of the C&C series. It is true that stalemates can be a problem, but I don't think eliminating nearly all base defenses is a solution. Do you realize that many maps, within the first minutes, I have to single-handedly run around the entire base mining every single entrance and ramp properly? And then the rest of the map, I have to continue to run around at top speed to replace all those mines. A remote C4-ed vehicle doesn't help too much. That really isn't fun, putting all the burden on a few (or in my case, single) reliable techs.

If I don't do this, it has usually ended up in a building being destroyed in the first 3-5 minutes, ruining the game for everyone else. (You have to understand, normal human beings HAVE to take bathroom, water, and other breaks during the map loads, and everyone is looking away from the building entrances while picking out stuff at terminals. For those of you that still don't understand (you know who you are), it's like getting kicked in the nuts during the handshake before a fight.) Where is the fun, challenge, balance, fairness in being able to run into a completely (or nearly completely) undefended base, clicking 2-6 times, and destroying any single essential base asset, nearly guaranteeing a win, and ruining any reasonable gameplay that team might have had. You're supposed to use plenty of effort, strategy, and tactics to get results and win. It should NOT be about exploiting game-setup times. One solution might be to have a warm-up time when ONLY mining is allowed, no building destruction or anything ... although it takes some minutes to mine everything, so maybe not the best solution.

Another solution would be to add better defenses, because even the multiple base turrets are lacking (I've seen a single flame tank alone take out all the secondary turrets/guard towers, 15-20 seconds per turret.). I would prefer deployable turrets, if it's possible, or ideally even vehicles that become stationary turrets (which can't be stolen after deployed). Actually, I think that was in one of the C&C games ... don't remember the vehicle type though. I don't mind if the turrets are weak, meaning you have put and struggle to maintain a ton of them to even be functional, at least it would be functional with more than one-time use (unlike mines).

My recommendation is that servers always have some defensive bots on, or at least have a script that runs each new map (checking to see if any real players are on), adding 1 defensive bot per building = just 5 bots per team. And if it seems too much, the script can just remove them all automatically after they're done mining (especially mining) and defending during early rushes (10 min). I don't see why players are so reluctant to add bots to the game, especially defensive bots (vote menu should have bot defense/offensive setting too). The only problem I've seen with them is a bit of jitteriness in the rest of the game. Is there a problem with them that I'm not aware of? If you want, you can even make purchaseable bots that take on your current character (you lose current), with a limit of 1-2 per person, or a team limit like vehicles. If possible, just having a way to automatically spawn a set of mines at entrances at the start of a map.

I don't mind losing at all, as long as it's after at least 20 minutes of gameplay, and people on both side at least somewhat tried to fight and defend. Someone's gotta win and someone's gotta lose, but it's really the battle that matters. 3-minute games involve no battles, no skill, and no talent.

*Purchased Snipers Are Too Powerful (Mainly Sakura & Havoc)

No purchased unit should ever die in 1 shot or explosion unless it's a very skilled shot. In essence, only a direct tank shot or sniper's headshot should kill in 1 hit. In all other cases, it should take at least 2 body shots to kill a purchased character, including explosives. For the higher priced ones, 2 + 1/2 or 1/4 shots. It's simply unfair to those that spend their funds on the most expensive characters: You instantly die from even a shot in the foot, which was made by someone you usually can't even see, with no indication of where they shot from. This especially a problem during crises, when the base is under siege or close-range attack: At least 5 snipers at a time group up and snipe everyone struggling to fend off tanks. Try to purchase a character -> BAM, 400-1000 credits (or twice that with powerplant down) down the drain instantly without warning (and with the Refinery down, it's incredibly difficult to earn any money). Try to countersnipe in the chaos -> BAM, dead by tank shell, being run over, or being sniped again, as well as your base going down. How is this fair in any way? Apparently, a good sniper can fend off an army single-handedly from afar, maybe even without being seen.

*Base Asset Rebuild

The problem is that the game is absolutely unforgiving for even the slightest slip-up. You can't rebuild any base. That's why I think you should be able to rebuild a base asset (maybe restricted to only 1?) with 100,000 credits donated to a rebuild fund (separate from a base auto-repair fund, see below).

*Base Repair Needs Improvement

Engineer repair does need a slight increase, to compensate for few playing as engineer and technician, and because of beacon and tank repair issues (never enough to make any difference!). Maybe it would do some good to add a base auto-repair fund, that you can donate to so the base has some degree of auto-repair function. This was also in a C&C game, and for good reason.

*Non-Purchased Weapons Are Far Too Weak

Non-purchased weapons should do at least a bit more damage because it's difficult to kill any infantry with free weapons ... it just doesn't do enough damage, especially if they're running around, not to mention the rifle is useless with the immense recoil. The marksman needs a bit more damage too. And obviously, there need to be some non-purchased reasonable anti-vehicle weapons, because so far, the damage is too pitiful to try. I do see that some was increased in Beta 3, but I'll have to wait till then to see how well it's changed.

*Vehicle Anti-Personnel Damage Needs Increasing

Tank shells rarely do any damage to any aircraft ... somehow it often misses despite an apparent direct hit on the visual side. As for vehicle machineguns, if you ever manage to hit running infantry head-on, it does measly damage. Close range with a vehicle, you can kill NO infantry unless you manage to somehow run them down, although most vehicles are not maneuvrable enough to do so. Infantry are supposed to be afraid of facing a vehicle, any vehicle, head-on. So far, they mostly ignore the vehicle, especially machine guns that I know did for more damage in C&C: Renegade, or see it as a free kill via timed C4 or anti-vehicle weapons.

*Medium Tank Issues

If the turret barrel is even slightly obstructed by anything, you can not fire. I understand it might have to do with preventing firing through buildings, but it would be better fixed by starting the projectile at the base of the barrel that can't ever reach any wall. Or perhaps having the base of the barrel be solid, so that it gets blocked by tank geometry. I've encountered so many situations where a wall, infantry, or another vehicle caused a gun jam, and my destruction. It's crippling.

*Mammoth can literally be outrun by a snail.

*As a final side suggestion, maybe you should be able to purchase more harvesters to harvest faster ... to some degree (only one parking space at the refinery). Probably needs some server limit. It's harder to kill 2 or more harvesters, so one might survive to provide funds. Maybe even make the player-purchased harvester controllable by the player, so that intelligent harvesting could be possible. Oh, and another thing, shouldn't the chemical trooper be healed by tiberium, because I remember that was the only way he could be healed in the other C&C games.

I'm sorry for how long this is, but I wanted to make things clear and supported.

[Truxa]

*Don't Rely On The Infinite Wisdom Of Noobs, Especially In A Small Game

One of the main aspects of the balance and function of RenX is that it relies on a large number of players being present AND active in game usually, and at least 50% of those to be competent and willing enough to defend and attack properly, according to the situation at the time. When server numbers drop to 20 and below, all balance fails, meaning the pros annihilate the noobs in a few minutes. So the main idea is, most of the defense, relies on the players, which are rarely good at defense, especially when there are fewer players on.

I agree, with fewer numbers, the games are way too short due to 1 team rushing and the other team unable to defend properly. It's just not enough players to do that.

I also agree as when I play, I play as 'the designated defender' meaning, maps like walls and whiteout, I'm the tech mining and occupieing the defensive structures. With other maps like field, defending the tunnels, goldrush defending the bridge with hot/tech/marksman/sniper; If i dont, the game is lost rapidly as no one cares to defend in that area, it's somehow boring (yes! it's boring, but needs to be done or we lose Hon/Bar/pp)

I've seen a single flamer rushing up to the AGT without being killed (shot down to about 30%) the AGT doesnt do enough damage compared to the obelisk, especially in Field

My recommendation is that servers always have some defensive bots on, or at least have a script that runs each new map (checking to see if any real players are on), adding 1 defensive bot per building = just 5 bots per team. And if it seems too much, the script can just remove them all automatically after they're done mining (especially mining) and defending during early rushes (10 min). I don't see why players are so reluctant to add bots to the game, especially defensive bots (vote menu should have bot defense/offensive setting too). The only problem I've seen with them is a bit of jitteriness in the rest of the game. Is there a problem with them that I'm not aware of? If you want, you can even make purchaseable bots that take on your current character (you lose current), with a limit of 1-2 per person, or a team limit like vehicles. If possible, just having a way to automatically spawn a set of mines at entrances at the start of a map.

No, just ... no. Bots are no solution. The problem before was that they were able to see the spy and SBH even though they should not be visible. I believe it is fixed now, but even 1 single shot of the spy onto an enemy unit/building would 'mark' that spy/SBH as visible to the bots.

For defensive purposes, it would be too much an unintended nerf for Nod SBHs and both team's spies.

*Purchased Snipers Are Too Powerful (Mainly Sakura & Havoc)

Snipers are fine. Sydney/Raveshaw are also fine. They all kill a free class with 1 shot, either head or torso, thats the price for being cheap (getting free classes) any other purchasable class, will not be killed with 1 shot, unless it's a headshot. Imo, fair game, even a deadeye's/blackhand sniper kills any character with a headshot. Thats ok.

*Base Asset Rebuild

Thats a nice idea, I'm for it but keep in mind that 100.000 is a lot, maybe not for a full server, but when the ref is down, 100.000 is a lot to donate especially on lower populated server/off-peek hours.

In a game of 30 minutes, it could be possible to passively gain 10.000 per player by ref ticks and harvester dumps. A full server (20v20) thats 5.000 credits per player per 30 minutes needed in order to restore a building.

I´m more for the idea of base auto repair function. Kicking in when building health drops below 80%.

*Non-Purchased Weapons Are Far Too Weak

What do you mean by this? Pistol-Automatic pistol? They are supposed to be weak and supplemental.

The other weapons like heavy pistol (75 credtis) and the automatic 125 credits rifle (forgot the name) do reasonable damage imo.

The marksman can kill a 1k character with 10 hits or so. It's a free sniper, shouldnt do much damage. It's a good free-choice to defend the goldrush bridges against techs/engineers. they die with 4 headshots or so.

the timedC4 = every classes anti vehicle weapon. Get close, plant, run away.

On your last notes, the chemtrooper should NOT be healed by tiberium. It's a 'normal human' in an anti tiberium radiation suit to prevent radiation damage. They should be unaffected by tiberium rifles, if anything should change about them.

You are talking about tiberium mutants, they should be healed by tiberium, but they are not (yet) in the game

[MajorLunaC]

No, just ... no. Bots are no solution. The problem before was that they were able to see the spy and SBH even though they should not be visible. I believe it is fixed now, but even 1 single shot of the spy onto an enemy unit/building would 'mark' that spy/SBH as visible to the bots.

For defensive purposes, it would be too much an unintended nerf for Nod SBHs and both team's spies.

Oh, I see, issues with spies being detected. That is a problem. I have noticed long-distance detection as well. There probably should be a random detection chance that decreases with range and stays 0 at spies.

Snipers are fine. Sydney/Raveshaw are also fine. They all kill a free class with 1 shot, either head or torso, thats the price for being cheap (getting free classes) any other purchasable class, will not be killed with 1 shot, unless it's a headshot. Imo, fair game, even a deadeye's/blackhand sniper kills any character with a headshot. Thats ok.

Vs the free classes yes, 1 shot anywhere is fine. But when you get a Sakura, Mendoza, or Ravenshaw vs a Havoc, they die in 1 shot. A single Sakura/Havoc sniper shot in the body kills $350-$1000 units instantly. Even at $350, it should take 2 shots, even if they're left with only 1 health. But most especially $1000 characters should take at least 2 shots to take down ... so for it only takes 1 shot. In other words, I took $1000 classes several times in a row, and I was always killed instantly in 1 shot by Sakura/Havoc. Don't tell me all of their shots were perfect headshots, because I was zig-zagging non-stop. Who knows, maybe this is an aimbot issue.

Thats a nice idea, I'm for it but keep in mind that 100.000 is a lot, maybe not for a full server, but when the ref is down, 100.000 is a lot to donate especially on lower populated server/off-peek hours.

In a game of 30 minutes, it could be possible to passively gain 10.000 per player by ref ticks and harvester dumps. A full server (20v20) thats 5.000 credits per player per 30 minutes needed in order to restore a building.

I´m more for the idea of base auto repair function. Kicking in when building health drops below 80%.

Hmmm..., I just thought people might say anything less than 100,000 is too low for a full server. Either way, it would require a different strategy -> Donating to the rebuild fund early on when you CAN afford it. In essence, "Saving up for a rainy day". But I think there should be a vote system to transfer the donated money between the Base Accounts: "Vote to transfer $20,000 from Base Auto-Repair Account to Base Rebuild Account: Yes(3) No(1)"

What do you mean by this? Pistol-Automatic pistol? They are supposed to be weak and supplemental.

The other weapons like heavy pistol (75 credtis) and the automatic 125 credits rifle (forgot the name) do reasonable damage imo.

The marksman can kill a 1k character with 10 hits or so. It's a free sniper, shouldnt do much damage. It's a good free-choice to defend the goldrush bridges against techs/engineers. they die with 4 headshots or so.

the timedC4 = every classes anti vehicle weapon. Get close, plant, run away.

For purchased weapons, they should do a little more, especially against infantry. For Free weapons, the auto-rifle (standard soldier) isn't accurate at all, especially with the ridiculous recoil, and doesn't seem to do all that much damage. I kill enemy infantry MUCH easier with the silenced pistol. But none of these weapons are any good against heavy armored vehicles, except maybe the Grenadier (GDI-only!). Timed C4 is an option, but hard to place, especially when facing a wall of tanks (especially flame tanks!). Remote C4 has always been variable for me. Sometimes it kills enemy infantry in one blast, other times not at all. They're even harder to place on a vehicle than Timed C4.

I know they're supposed to be supplementary, but Free units shouldn't be useless against anything. When you lose Refinery or Barracks/Hand and War Factory/Airstrip, you can't do much anymore. It should be that when 75%-90% of the team (I guess on a full server) focuses their FREE basic soldier rifle on a single Medium Tank, it should be killed in 20-30 seconds. So far, nothing FREE does much of anything against heavy armor, and technically even against light armor the damage is pretty low. I'm not saying it should do great damage, but it should do reasonable damage, especially against Heavy Armor Vehicles at Medium-Range to Long-Range (FREE Rifles + Marksman vs a wall of Flame Tanks or Medium Tanks).

On your last notes, the chemtrooper should NOT be healed by tiberium. It's a 'normal human' in an anti tiberium radiation suit to prevent radiation damage. They should be unaffected by tiberium rifles, if anything should change about them.

You are talking about tiberium mutants, they should be healed by tiberium, but they are not (yet) in the game

Hmmm... I could have sworn they were healed by Tiberium in C&C: Renegade, although not at all fast. Something about them has to change because they bring nothing new compared to other characters so far.

Oh and I remembered another serious problem: I always lose ALL my money if the game crashes, even if I get back on the same team. There should be a system to save the money for me for 5 minutes if I get back on the same team, otherwise it's distributed to the team I left.