Gunplay issues: Bullet spread and ADS.

[GatsuFox]

Oh fuck THATS what I've been missing. I've been landing bodyshots because I wasn't taking the arc into consideration.

Still... all for dps buff for flamer? Show of hands please.

Do not derail the thread.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

WTF GatsuFox That is so lame. The thread is dead though isn't it?

Also, state your thoughts on Flamethrower, and/or flamethrower DPS.

[GatsuFox]

WTF GatsuFox That is so lame. The thread is dead though isn't it?

Also, state your thoughts on Flamethrower, and/or flamethrower DPS.

The flame thrower needs to be in line with the current grenade launcher right now. It needs higher damage vs. armor, a larger hitbox for the projectiles, its spread removed (in keeping with this thread), and more burn damage. In return it should have its range lowered. Right now it's an alright defensive weapon vs other infantry since its projectile is slow but there's no real way to use it offensively vs anything unless your HON is down and you want a safer way to deal damage to tanks than being an engineer with remote C4. I think it should be as powerful as the chemical trooper but with half the range personally, maybe slightly less. The chem trooper has other advantages the flame trooper doesn't for 150c.

[GatsuFox]

BUMP because still no dev reply.

[Havoc89]

This is a tricky thing to balance. Most veteran players will opt for a 1:1 classic replica, while new comers whom are more familiar with modern shooters would like to see it in the opposite direction. But of course everyone has their own opinions on what it SHOULD be like. We went for an in the middle approach that had aspects of both sides while still with a bias towards classic. That being said we are certainly not afraid to rebalanced the game entirely if we feel it needs to be done.

[GatsuFox]

This is a tricky thing to balance. Most veteran players will opt for a 1:1 classic replica, while new comers whom are more familiar with modern shooters would like to see it in the opposite direction. But of course everyone has their own opinions on what it SHOULD be like. We went for an in the middle approach that had aspects of both sides while still with a bias towards classic. That being said we are certainly not afraid to rebalanced the game entirely if we feel it needs to be done.

Just keep in mind that an "in the middle" approach for the gunplay will give you a weaker gunplay either-way.

In Renegades, the guns had minor spread to counter act the limited speed units had, the original developers were more influenced by older FPS games like UT and Quake and had a really good idea on how to make the game feel rewarding for hitting shots. However, in this game it seems like the developers are more influenced by the modern FPS craze and I just don't know why. I mean the VAR (shaft) is just basically the LG from Quake3 in renegades, which is probably the most popular gun to use in the Quake series next to the rocket launcher because it's so fun to use and use well by tracking a players movement. In Renegade X it's literally IMPOSSIBLE to hit every shot even on a stationary target because it spreads so much. There's NO reward for having good aim with it.

Here's how I see it. Renegades had MINOR spread with guns for the reason above, but since Renegade X is a LOT faster it should have no spread. It's much easier to weave through player's aim in this game compared to the original through the use of sprinting. Combine the sprinting with the ABSURD weapon spread on any automatic then no matter how well I aim it just feels like gambling every time I'm trying to hit something. No matter how much I try to predict movement, track, and compensate for bullet velocity the bullets will just magically fly around my opponent and I have almost no control over it.

I really hope these complaints and suggestions sink in because I really like this game, but it gets really annoying fighting other players and not knowing what the outcome will be in the end from this spread crap.

If you look in this thread there seems to be two types of people:

1. People who want spread removed.

2. People who don't give a shit either way, because they don't want to insult the developers.

I don't think ANYONE WANTS bullet spread. There's a very select few people who want it because it's "realistic" but they're forgetting this is an ARCADE shooter, not a simulator.

I am STILL waiting on someone to answer one of my earliest questions in this thread: Why is random number generation on where my bullets go a GOOD thing in a SHOOTER?

[Sebqt]

I agree entirely with GatsuFox.

I now use Eng above Normal Inf for even normal shooting, as the pistol at least I know if I shoot X it will actually go to X. There is no fun in the spread when there are so many variables already. The game would be a thousand times more fun and I'd be inclined to play a lot more if I was rewarded for being able to keep my aim on the crazy moving targets. I don't even try to shoot people from 'afar' (funny how I used to rate 'far' as further than I did now, but anything other than just-outside-melee is too far) with the normal inf weapon it's really pointless.

Remove recoil and spread for 1 week as a trial and ask for feedback. If people aren't happier then I'll bite my fingers off.

[RelentlessChaos]

I can't aim for crap in this game it's terrible. I waste 2 mags at mid-range just to try and kill someone. INF is useless unless you have explosives.

[Ardente]

Sadly true. You cant hit your target with the Inf Primary. It's funny how you actually can do way more DPS with the Silenced Weapon than with the Inf Primary. There is no point of running with the FreeSoldier - It's like you're a free kill..

1. Target is to fast / Can change the direction in like no time.

2. You cant control the spread, like you would normally do.

Lead to 3. You're dead before you could do 50% dmg to your target.

+1 for nospread.

I like the idea of a trial week

[HaTe]

I don't understand how people have trouble aiming. Its extremely easy

[yosh56]

I don't understand how people have trouble aiming. Its extremely easy

I can see it when you fight people that are very twitchy/jumpy due to connection problems... but that really wouldn't be helped by doing anything to the guns. Considering the number of weapons that are hit-scan now, I don't think this is all that much an issue. Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how people lose free-soldier vs. engi with a pistol. If you're moving a ridiculous amount, landing 12 shots with the pistol is a lot harder than landing 10 headshots with the gun with the near-infinite clip.

[SFJake]

Disagree completely, you need to lead with the automatic rifle, meaning 50% of your shots are all about predicting something you can only guess. Getting shots with a hitscan weapon (pistol) is FAR, FAR easier unless you're right in their face. Plus the automatic rifle require slight recoil adjustment, enough to make a generous difference at medium range.

In fact I'd say if the recoil wasn't there, it would be quite the better weapon. In an arcade-style fight at medium-long range recoil is a huge deal.

[HaTe]

I just (re)-installed this game 4 days ago and am absolutely wrecking with any gun. I'd take the automatic rifle over the pistol any day, and I challenge you to pistol vs auto rifle me if you think otherwise lol

[GatsuFox]

I remember this thread. The devs mostly responded and a lot of spread has been nullified. The chaingun still has too much spread but I guess we can't have everything perfect. Right now the normal auto rifle is pretty powerful (I should know since I'm the only person who can use the damn thing in this community).

It's really stupid right now that the marksman rifle has ANY spread to it at all. Whats the point of a semi sniper if the bullets go around my long distance target randomly.

[Canucck]

Does the 500 sniper have spread atm too? It kinda feels like it, but maybe it's just noregs

[GatsuFox]

Does the 500 sniper have spread atm too? It kinda feels like it, but maybe it's just noregs

Ran some tests. It does have random spread. Or at least it really really looks and feels like it. Would explain all the shots I've missed for no reason.

[HaTe]

I haven't noticed any apparent spread that makes it harder to hit my enemy. The very little spread that there is on certain weapons is predictable. There is so little spread that it doesn't really make a difference...at least for me.

[Blubb]

I think purism is killing the "development" on this game kinda, i like the new changes to the game and i think they should be embraced, it's a Renegade that walks with it's traits into the modern age, "i want original renegade 2001 was best" cultists are practically throwing a wrench into the gears for new players too. Thats just my two cents but what i've observed in online play is that, while yes good players kill other players pretty fast, and it is a pretty fast game but it looks odd while doing so. Also while good players mostly kill others fast, pin 2 noobs against eachother and at times they hop around like spastics for nearly a minute until one is falling, it's pretty random how fights go, the game overall has a very very mixed flow to it. I like the spread, it makes taking accuracy while aiming down sights a bit more important if you're "that" player. These changes move a bit a away from the "Quake 4 arena in open environment and a bit too much bullet resistance from infantry" to a "fast paced game with a lot of factors to think of and the right choices to make at the right time", now if the weapons had actually now a LOGICAL role , that would be great, it just looks utterly idiotic to shoot someone with a flamethrower in the face and you have practically time for a tea until the enemy is dying.....same goes to the rocket infantry and some other weapons which roles i completely don't understand because they're assigned to do stuff that doesn't make sense....but i guess "it was in the old renegade" oh well.....thats just my thoughts, but i think overall people should be a little less stagnant with their nostalgic values, it's not all good just because it worked and was good 10 years ago, thats why there is improvement, and i don't mean fucking things up.

[SFJake]

Oh jesus, not this again.

Its not about nostalgia.

Its about having a FPS thats not like the crap we'Re getting today.

You call it modern, I call it crap, and your reasons for it pretty much all proves it.

There's nothing random about gunfights in Renegade. There's plenty of things to think of. Gunfights just don't end in 1 shot and you can move while doing so. This is already 10x better and deeper than any gunfights in most modern shooters because of those things.

I'll never have this game dumbed down to the level of today's "realistic" FPS. There's no improvement in anything you offer. None whatsoever. WHat is it with people that can't appreciate games where you don'T die in 0.5 seconds to everything? God forbid there's a chance for you to react, move around and change the tide of the battle in a million ways.

Its not nostalgia, its just plain doing things better, opening more skillful opportunities and making fights more interesting and movement more meaningful.

There's pretty much no comparison between the kind of scenarios that can happen in a modern FPS vs what can happen in Renegade. Its two worlds apart.

And those who disagree with all of this really should just play every single FPS in the world other than Renegade, since its literally the only one that understood any of this except arena shooters (who are at the extreme end of fast-paced, while Renegade is an amazing match of freedom of movement and shooting while remaining heavily tactical).

[HaTe]

Nod and GDI are advanced futuristic factions, and therefore their gun control is excellent and so their spread is very minimal. /solved

[Blubb]

Oh jesus, not this again.

Its not about nostalgia.

Its about having a FPS thats not like the crap we'Re getting today.

You call it modern, I call it crap, and your reasons for it pretty much all proves it.

There's nothing random about gunfights in Renegade. There's plenty of things to think of. Gunfights just don't end in 1 shot and you can move while doing so. This is already 10x better and deeper than any gunfights in most modern shooters because of those things.

I'll never have this game dumbed down to the level of today's "realistic" FPS. There's no improvement in anything you offer. None whatsoever. WHat is it with people that can't appreciate games where you don'T die in 0.5 seconds to everything? God forbid there's a chance for you to react, move around and change the tide of the battle in a million ways.

Its not nostalgia, its just plain doing things better, opening more skillful opportunities and making fights more interesting and movement more meaningful.

There's pretty much no comparison between the kind of scenarios that can happen in a modern FPS vs what can happen in Renegade. Its two worlds apart.

And those who disagree with all of this really should just play every single FPS in the world other than Renegade, since its literally the only one that understood any of this except arena shooters (who are at the extreme end of fast-paced, while Renegade is an amazing match of freedom of movement and shooting while remaining heavily tactical).

I'm not saying explicity "shorten the time of fighting" i'm saying "the changes that were made are good so far, it's not only to accomodate people that stagnate on the old gameplay ONLY", because you might find it totally rad to have this "pure" arcade thing going on while, no one besides old ren players like it. It's like the dev's are making this game exclusively for you and a dwindling playerbase, and it is when i see 2 servers that are being played on with each new release and 3 months later it's just 1 server with the same people". i would ask myself questions if i was dev. Now i know it's a passion project, yeah and it may be that to ren players or you that modern components are useless....thats your opinion man, not mine, i find it pretty skillbased to use aim down sights to gain more accuracy, especially if you have to measure your reaction to fighting range. the "killing speed" would be ok, and maybe as you can read, the only big problem i had is the illogical weapon roles. RPG's are for killing tanks, everyone knows that, thats visual confirmation, so it looks super odd when you don't do enough damage for it to make it out as designated vehicle buster for infantry and instead you do nearly more damage with a high caliber sniper rifle.....against tanks, wtf. Things like this. .....and the Carbine sound is like , slapping a weak sausage against a wall, it lacks punch, no matter of silencer or not, it's called audio confirmation. :DDD

[HaTe]

Recoil and spread are for games that are more realistic and so they have infantry die with a few hits from just about any gun. Renegade has units with more health. Meaning if there was more recoil and spread, then units would just sprint around and not worry as much about dying. Its about skill rather than estimated luck. If the game were based on real life (which you compare it to with your RPG and sniper examples), don't you think hospitals would all purchase repair guns by now? Its all alternate universe (c&c).

[Blubb]

Recoil and spread are for games that are more realistic and so they have infantry die with a few hits from just about any gun. Renegade has units with more health. Meaning if there was more recoil and spread, then units would just sprint around and not worry as much about dying. Its about skill rather than estimated luck. If the game were based on real life (which you compare it to with your RPG and sniper examples), don't you think hospitals would all purchase repair guns by now? Its all alternate universe (c&c).

Well, your skill argument is absolute nonsense, i remember playing Quake 3 Arena, and skill wise NOTHING has changed just because the kill time duration is much shorter to older games, it just shifted it's importance to another factor, rather than "hopping around like a spastic as much and being on target still with hipfire aim" is not any more skilled than "being environment aware and being able to spot and draw faster AND being on point/ being more efficient. And i already said i have nothing against the kill time lengh in renegade x, it's longer than usual but thats not a problem for me, the problem for me is that weapon roles are illogical, not talking about realism per-se ( the example with your repair gun is pretty redundant btw) it is to assign each weapon a role it obviously should fulfill and not balance it into a weird way where sniper rifles become AA and light anti armor guns more than an RPG does.

The spread is absolutely ok to me too, it just add's imo to the game that you have to make use of the "aim down sights" at some range otherwise you're not being precise enough, maybe thats too much for you but not everything has to remain stagnant, if the aim feature weren't there at all, me for one wouldn't have too much interrest in the game at all. i'm one of the players who play in 1st person exclusively because it feels nice and i make use of the "aim down sights" feature since i grew to like it, i like that the new renegade does a split between "arcadey oldschool" and "some neat game mechanics which make other/newer players feel welcome", seriously tolerate that more than a handful of hardcore renegade players like to feelm welcome, i know a lot of people i asked to play this game with me have been put off simply because it's VERY appeasing to oldies, not saying it is a bad thing, but yeah...that has an impact, and it's good that the team offers an alternative or embrace additional mechanics.

[HaTe]

Renegade x isn't a tdm. Its a mission based mode (c&c). That's the difference. It's also third person/first person RTS hybrid. It's also based on a game that had similar gunplay mechanics.

The original has/had many players even a decade or more after its release. Its not the guns not having recoil that are keeping people away, and if that were true then renegade wouldn't have been or be so popular for so long. You're fishing.

If you use first person exclusively then you are limiting your own gameplay experience because of your own personal preference. That's not the developer's problem...its yours.

[RoundShades]

Renegade x isn't a tdm. Its a mission based mode (c&c). That's the difference. It's also third person/first person RTS hybrid. It's also based on a game that had similar gunplay mechanics.

The original has/had many players even a decade or more after its release. Its not the guns not having recoil that are keeping people away, and if that were true then renegade wouldn't have been or be so popular for so long. You're fishing.

If you use first person exclusively then you are limiting your own gameplay experience because of your own personal preference. That's not the developer's problem...its yours.

Yes. Honestly, all these gents are right. This isn't the only objective shooter neither. Play Planetside2, Super Monday Night Combat, or the original Renegade, and you know why low-lethality is necesary. Gunfights have to play out for many reasons:

>>Time to react, so getting the jump on someone can still result in recieving some damage and over multiple gunfights result in death or return to base for refill

>>A long match time of 30 minutes requires gunfights to last longer. If infantry died in 2 bullets from each other then kills would be in the 300s by end of games.

>>The variety of weapons, if 1 hit kills were a thing then SMGs or assaults would dominate, not to mention snipers which we just rebalanced to NOT do that. The wide variety of "effect" and "armor value specific" weapons of interesting flavor would be either useless or cheese, like the chem sprayer or the rocket launchers or the volt rifles.

>>The high team counts benefits from low lethality. If 8v8 infantry engagements ended in sweeps of gunfire in 6 seconds, progress and outcomes would be even more random, not less. The fact that 8v8 gunfights are arcadey and use a variety of weapons and ranges and classes and last 15-20 seconds gives it strategy over skill, using the right weapon rather than aiming the weapon "gooder".

>>Lastly, if Battlefield is already definitely going to be the best version of Battlefield, with its EA publisher support and AAA title budget and huge playerbase, then why would we want to make a Battlefield clone? There has to be some reason to play this game other than the exact reasons to play Battlefield, because otherwise, you will play Battlefield. This game is entirely different, which warrants playing it on it's own merit, even if you play other games as well, you would either play one, the other, or both, based on each one's particular details and gameplay.

[Blubb]

i think i said already 3 times, the time to kill infantry is completely fine in RenX , yet, every following post insists i would have said otherwise, i guess it doesn't matter what i say when people simply brush over it.

Also my personal preference is not "my problem" it is using a feature that was build into the game you want to be removed, which makes it your problem.

[HaTe]

What do I want to be removed exactly? Lol. I use first and third person.

If you increase spread or recoil, you directly increase time to kill. That's a causation.

[RoundShades]

What do I want to be removed exactly? Lol. I use first and third person.

Idk what anyone wants anymore. Was there a breakdown of communication somewhere?

But again, I agree with HaTe. You are playing right, if you are using 3rd person to position yourself in the field or move between cover or turn corners, and switch to 1st person to carry out gunfights.

Beta 1 footage recorded by TheGunnRunn or whatever, he said he tried to avoid switching perspective too often because it was disorientating to watch. However, that is the most natural and beneficial way to play, and after playing like that yourself often enough, it isn't disorientating to watch. I LOVE how arcade-y it feels, like an action scene gunfight.

[Blubb]

i like that the game gives you options how to play, i don't feel i'm limiting myself, rather than giving me more of a challenge, also if it comes to gunfights, i don't mind the actual time like it is right now, i don't think the spread and recoil should be increased, it feels fine to me. Other than that, like i told you, it's my choice to play in 1st person, no matter what "rules" you might say apply to the game, it just feels right to me, each to his own...coming from the stalker community and playing a game like this , i chose naturally even though it's an arcadey game, a more tactical approach, and jumping around too long like a spastic isn't my thing, i try to avoic confrontations like this because it's kinda irritating to me.

[HaTe]

I'm unclear what you want to be changed, then?

[Blubb]

Nothing, i was replying because you'd rather wanted to nerf what feels rather good in the first place.

EDIT: and maybe because weapon roles maybe should fit to their purpose because.....well AA Sniper is rather silly looking.

[RoundShades]

Nothing, i was replying because you'd rather wanted to nerf what feels rather good in the first place.

Which is? The game does need several nerfs atm. Credit income. Officer Chaingun. Grenadier.

[HaTe]

Yeah what did I want to Nerf?

[Blubb]

the discussion started with the bullet spread being nerfed or being removed alltogether, which i think is unnessessary, i like how it works right now.

[HaTe]

So do I.