Damage Chart

[lazy5686]

I find it hilarious that over time a PIC or Railgun does less damage than Patch's rifle to heavy armor and that a volt auto rifle does more than twice as much.

[RoundShades]

Gunner reload time is alright, the Rocket Soldier just magically does more than 2x as much damage per shot as Gunner. And for some reason the Grenadier does way too much damage too, they have almost the same as gunner and they have large clips just like him as well. Both Rocket Soldier and Grenadiers look like they need a 50% nerf to their damage vs. buildings.

It "magically" does more damage because it's a single fire rocket. It's balanced compared to the 6 shot gunner that can spam smaller shots. It's only the reload time that makes the gunner's rockets weaker overall. They shouldn't be more powerful than a single rocket. It makes no sense for the gunner to have the ability to fire 6 rockets quickly and for them to be stronger than the Rocket Soldier's single rocket. They should do the same damage they do now at the same rate, but the Gunner needs to be able to reload slightly faster to bring his DPS up.

You are so wrong it's hard for me to choose where to start...

Gunner is a more expensive unit. Gunner is supposed to be more powerful than the Rocket Soldier. In Renegade they do exactly the same damage per shot and Gunner fired far faster than the Rocket Soldier. This is the point of Gunner. He is GDI's specialized unit for killing buildings. If he is not doing far more damage against buildings than any other infantry in the game then he is not fulfilling his role. Please learn how the game works before posting.

As for the Grenadier he's incredibly short range and not as good against buildings as a Gunner. No way does a grenade launcher compare with a weapon that can practically hit the other side of the map.

A $0 unit should not be dealing DPS comparable to the unit that is designed to be the ultimate building killer. If you don't realize this then again, you have no idea how the game works. There are plenty of instances in which Gunner's range is completely irrelevant, and he should not be outclassed in killing buildings by a free character in these instances.

The weapons don't do the same thing in this game. Renegade is dead, it's not coming back, get over it. Joking, but seriously, in the way the game works, the missiles should maybe do more damage against buildings or reload time be faster. Really, it is in GDI's balance favor for grenadiers be as strong as they are on buildings, I mean it doesn't hurt anything and it's limited range. I do not think Gunner missiles should be exact same damage or higher than Rocket Soldier's, possibly make his about half just so his DPS is higher but his individual missiles aren't. They use entirely different launchers in this game, soldiers should keep his one shot damage while gunner gets the dps with slightly weaker rockets.

[Crab]

For fighting heavy armor, I think the characters are pretty well balanced. I might be doing less overall damage with a railgun, but I'm not exposing myself to incoming tank shells as much than other characters that need to use sustained fire. This is also why I prefer to use the rocket soldier over Gunner if I'm going to be hunting vehicles in a map with many spots for cover.

Well done on the chart.

[RoundShades]

I am puzzled as to why the heavy pistol deals the same dps to heavy armor as it doed to light armour.

Because the regular pistol does like 30 to infantry, and like 5 to light armor and 1 to heavy armor.

A pistol that does 30 across all armors is still well worth it's utility.

[SFJake]

This is great work, thanks to the OP!

If I'm correct, the stank has light armour. Look at the DPS a heavy pistol does to light armour. Heavy pistols can tear through stanks like there's no tomorrow, right? It even does the same DPS on heavy armour...

The stealth tank has heavy armor.

I vaguely remember it was not quite that in the original, but the stealth tank reacts the same way to damage as any other heavy vehicle.

Just to clarify, if anyone has any doubts, these are the vehicle's armor in this game (they all act the same in the same category, as far as my testing went).

Light Armor Vehicles:

Humvee

Buggy

MRLS

Mobile Artillery

Transport Helicopter

Orca

Apache

Heavy Armor Vehicles:

APC

Flame Tank

Light Tank

Medium Tank

Mammoth Tank

Stealth Tank

I am puzzled as to why the heavy pistol deals the same dps to heavy armor as it doed to light armour.

Thats how most "explosive" damage works.

I find it hilarious that over time a PIC or Railgun does less damage than Patch's rifle to heavy armor and that a volt auto rifle does more than twice as much.

Even in the original this wasn't really different. The PIC and Railgun had a little less time between shots but it still gave a sub-30 DPS.

Like some said, the fact that you can do all that damage instantly on a click, nevermind having to expose yourself only barely to deal it all, is what makes those weapons powerful and what makes them win a lot more fights. They are good field weapons. They could use a small buff though (I'd bring them back to the old Renegade level, but thats just me).

Likewise, a volt rifle should be more powerful, since you have to stay out of cover constantly to use it and its range is poor. Also runs out of ammo so quickly. Thats all why its really great to deal with rushes.

[goztow]

Mybe you got it wrong. I find it disturbing that a pistol however heavy it may be can rip throuh heavy armour the same way it rips through light armour.

[HaTe]

I like that the volt does more damage to vehicles, personally. In renegade, the unit was rarely ever used because you had to remain in sight to do the damage, whereas the pic and railgun could shoot and hide repeatedly. It's better to give them a buff so that they are actually used.

And yeah, a pistol should not be doing explosive damage, no matter how heavy the pistol is. The warhead should do less damage to heavier armored structures for sure. If renegade x's damage system works like Renegade's, the heavy pistol should have the steel warhead, and the regular pistol should have the shrapnel warhead (shrapnel does 10% raw to light armor and 2.5% to heavy. Steel does 20% to light armor and 15% to heavy armor).

[XD_ERROR_XD]

a Transport Helicopter had Medium armour. snipers only did 50% damage to them then normal aircaft (30 for ramjet and 15 for 500 sniper).

I haven't tested this in RenX though.

[SFJake]

Nope, they have light armor now. Like I said, only 2 armor types for vehicles as far as I can tell. Just tested again, chinook definitely take 60 damage from ramjet

[Letty]

Tired of the theoretical bs so I ran a test of Gunner vs Rocket Soldier. Target: Hon. Zero misses for either. No return trips refill trips. Using stopwatch to get exact time.

Rocket Soldier

---------------

Total Damage To Building: HON was left at 40% health.

Time: 00:00:44:86

Switched teams inbetween to heal HON back to 100%.

Gunner

---------------

Total Damage To Building: HON was left at 31% health.

Time: 00:01:02:50

Clearly the Rocket Soldier fires through his entire ammo stock faster (once again horrible reload for Gunner was horrible to sit through) but does less overall damage for a single run. Changing Gunner's reload time slightly would fix this without either making Gunner OP or making Rocket Soldier UP. Changing damage for either of them would be a far more drastic step then merely making it so that Gunners reload slightly faster.

You don't think that much damage is OP for Rocket Soldier right now? Bearing in mind that 10 rocket soldiers can kill a building from across the map in about 7 seconds, and they are a nearly free unit that can be bought the instant the game starts?

Consider, against Light Armor and Heavy Armor Gunner does 40 damage per shot, while the Rocket Officer does 55 damage. The Rocket Officer does only 37.5% more damage per shot.

Against Infantry Gunner does 90 damage per shot while the Rocket Officer does 100 damage per shot, for only 11% more damage per shot.

But against Buildings, Gunner does 1.66% damage per shot while the Rocket Officer does 3.5% damage per shot. The Rocket Officer does 110% more damage per shot than the Gunner vs. Buildings. This makes no sense and isn't balanced. And if you upped Gunner's RoF even higher to compensate then Gunner would also receive a damage boost against tanks and infantry, allowing him to absolutely annihilate them in the blink of an eye.

Gunner rushes were already considered a very powerful tactic in Renegade. Rocket Officer is, right now, far stronger in a building rush than Gunner was in Renegade, and for a much smaller price tag. Talking about buffing Gunner to be stronger is insane. No one looked at Gunner in Renegade and said "Yeah, he needs to be 50% stronger to be useful".

[HaTe]

a Transport Helicopter had Medium armour. snipers only did 50% damage to them then normal aircaft (30 for ramjet and 15 for 500 sniper).

I haven't tested this in RenX though.

They have light by default. Jelly modded them to have medium armor in Renegade for their server.

[iovandrake]

Tired of the theoretical bs so I ran a test of Gunner vs Rocket Soldier. Target: Hon. Zero misses for either. No return trips refill trips. Using stopwatch to get exact time.

Rocket Soldier

---------------

Total Damage To Building: HON was left at 40% health.

Time: 00:00:44:86

Switched teams inbetween to heal HON back to 100%.

Gunner

---------------

Total Damage To Building: HON was left at 31% health.

Time: 00:01:02:50

Clearly the Rocket Soldier fires through his entire ammo stock faster (once again horrible reload for Gunner was horrible to sit through) but does less overall damage for a single run. Changing Gunner's reload time slightly would fix this without either making Gunner OP or making Rocket Soldier UP. Changing damage for either of them would be a far more drastic step then merely making it so that Gunners reload slightly faster.

You don't think that much damage is OP for Rocket Soldier right now? Bearing in mind that 10 rocket soldiers can kill a building from across the map in about 7 seconds, and they are a nearly free unit that can be bought the instant the game starts?

Consider, against Light Armor and Heavy Armor Gunner does 40 damage per shot, while the Rocket Officer does 55 damage. The Rocket Officer does only 37.5% more damage per shot.

Against Infantry Gunner does 90 damage per shot while the Rocket Officer does 100 damage per shot, for only 11% more damage per shot.

But against Buildings, Gunner does 1.66% damage per shot while the Rocket Officer does 3.5% damage per shot. The Rocket Officer does 110% more damage per shot than the Gunner vs. Buildings. This makes no sense and isn't balanced. And if you upped Gunner's RoF even higher to compensate then Gunner would also receive a damage boost against tanks and infantry, allowing him to absolutely annihilate them in the blink of an eye.

Gunner rushes were already considered a very powerful tactic in Renegade. Rocket Officer is, right now, far stronger in a building rush than Gunner was in Renegade, and for a much smaller price tag. Talking about buffing Gunner to be stronger is insane. No one looked at Gunner in Renegade and said "Yeah, he needs to be 50% stronger to be useful".

Eh, I might be inclined to agree that they need their shots weakened against buildings somewhat. However I don't think they need to be nerfed like crazy. Every GDI could buy a McFarland AT MATCH START and pummel a building to rubble if they were smart. I've yet to see any effective McFarland rushes like I used to see early Gunner rushes and Gunner was never purchaseable prior to the first harvester dump. Why no talk about nerfing McFarland?

[Letty]

Eh, I might be inclined to agree that they need their shots weakened against buildings somewhat. However I don't think they need to be nerfed like crazy. Every GDI could buy a McFarland AT MATCH START and pummel a building to rubble if they were smart. I've yet to see any effective McFarland rushes like I used to see early Gunner rushes and Gunner was never purchaseable prior to the first harvester dump. Why no talk about nerfing McFarland?

I would say that McFarland is a bit too good when compared to his counterpart, the Chem trooper. However against Buildings specifically McFarland is no where near as powerful as the other options. Namely Grenedier/Gunner/Rocket Officer.

Just as a point of comparison, here are the DPS stats vs. buildings as they are now (using McFarland's current building DPS as a base point):

Flame Trooper - 52%

Mcfarland - 100%

Chem Trooper - 103%

Gunner - 142%

Grenadier - 156%

Rocket Officer - 161%

Now for a more ideal spread IMO:

McFarland - 90%

Grenadier - 90%

Flame Trooper - 90%

Chem Trooper - 120%

Rocket Officer - 120%

Gunner - 140%

McFarland should be weaker damage simply because he is so good at anti-infantry as well. But he will still stand up as a jack of all trades cheapo, just without range

Grenadier and Flame Trooper occupy nearly the same roles. Flame Trooper is shorter ranged but doesn't require you to arc to your target, which balances out nicely. DPS should be approximately equal between them.

Chemtrooper vs. buildings is effectively a shorter range Rocket Officer, but being slightly cheaper and with better ability against infantry or vehicles that do get close. I think it balances out decently. Or look at him as a McFarland who trades McFarland's insane CQC ability for a bit more damage vs. buildings and vehicles.

Rocket Officer returns to their place they were in original Renegade (I think, I'd have go back and check the numbers). Slightly less damage than Gunner for a significantly cheaper price. With their newly-added lockon ability devastating aircraft from across the map and ensuring that vehicles can't dodge much they are more than competent I believe.

Gunner stays where he is. I don't think anyone had a problem with him in Renegade and he's unchanged in RenX.

None of this refers to anti-infantry or anti-vehicle damage, just anti-building. These changes should be made to the base weapon damage, not fire speed or reload time. Doing the latter affects infantry and vehicle killing power as well, and probably in a bad way. Though that isn't to say that the weapons couldn't also use changes in their anti infantry or anti vehicle capability (rip flamethrower).

[iovandrake]

I suppose that's a fair solution. It's amazing how a good nights sleep affects my ability to agree. My problem with Gunner's reload time stems from how he compares in Ren X to other units. His reload time worked fine in Renegade, but in Ren X it just seems so incredibly slow compared to a lot of other changes.

[OfficerMeatbeef]

Dang, some real detailed work on this, good show.

For fighting heavy armor, I think the characters are pretty well balanced. I might be doing less overall damage with a railgun, but I'm not exposing myself to incoming tank shells as much than other characters that need to use sustained fire. This is also why I prefer to use the rocket soldier over Gunner if I'm going to be hunting vehicles in a map with many spots for cover.

Yeah. These numbers are obviously helpful, but they aren't everything, and they don't include very important factors such as max range or stability. Patch might do more theoretical SUSTAINED damage to armor over time, but you have to keep in mind that his rifle has a substantial amount of kick, so you aren't going to hit with every shot at full auto at anything but very dangerously close range.

Similarly, you could expect the Volt Rifle to be more effective than even the PIC/Rail because you have to get so much closer to make use of it.

And yeah, a pistol should not be doing explosive damage, no matter how heavy the pistol is.

Hah, I don't know. It's still CnC, if we can have a rifle that shoots explosive rounds, a flak cannon, a guy with a tank full of radioactive fictional mineral goo he sprays on people, and people with sniper rifles that shoot bullets with jet engines in them, I think there's room for a credit-purchasable explosive pistol.

Have you actually given that Heavy Pistol a spin yet? It's pretty fun, and you can immediately tell it's shooting explosive rounds very similar to the Tactical Rifle's.

Edit- Oh, question for the OP, don't see it in the chart: during your tests, did you notice if the flamethrower and chem trooper take less damage from explosives than in the original? Relatedly, does the chem trooper take less damage from Tiberium-based weaponry?

[Letty]

I'm pretty sure Chemtroopers take the same tiberium-based damage as normal, though they might not be hit by the weak DoT effect. I've only been on the shooter end, not the getting shot end.

and people with sniper rifles that shoot bullets with jet engines in them

Ramjet guns are actually real (theoretical) guns, they just operate under similar principles as a Ramjet engine. No miniature jet engines, just the catch that they are designed for shooting things into orbit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_accelerator

[IKILUNOW]

I played the old game until I abandoned XP. Missed it! I do miss the old games Parameters as I feel they were spot on. In the Westwood version when you defended the base and helped others your score reflected it, not so much here. But none of us like change. What bugs me the most are the idiots who don’t know how play as a team.